Wikipedia:British Isles Terminology task force/archive 2

Suggested Guideline 1
These guidelines are based on the tables above, where:

KEY to table use:


 * The word Ireland refers to the country Republic of Ireland (not 'Ireland' as an island).
 * The word Britain is in the political/cultural sense of term, and includes Northern Ireland.

General suggestions
I come to this discussion for the first time when it has already been going for several days. The British Isles are do called, not because England used to dominate Ireland, but because Great Britain is the largest island. My advise is to "Be precise". Use: It may soemtimes be permissible to use the form "Republic of Ireland|Ireland". Note that "Great" Britain is probably so called from size, to distinguish it from Brittany, not used out of haughtiness. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Republic of Ireland whenever appropriate
 * 2) Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales
 * 3) United Kingdom = Great Britain and Northern Ireland
 * 4) Ireland = Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
 * 5) British Isles = United Kingdom, Isle of Man, and Republic of Ireland. This should only be used when it is necessary to refer to the whole archipeligo, which will probably be an infrequent event.


 * Do you mean the form Ireland instead of Republic of Ireland? It's actually easy to refer indirectly to the whole archipelagos. I can't see us using it only with direct use (ie when the Isle of Man is positively involved), as too many here want to use it for geographical features etc, and Man would simply indirectly come into play.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No. Can't agree with relegation of Ireland (the country) to "Republic of Ireland". I'll come back in more detail on this later. Sarah777 (talk) 11:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I notice you haven't written anything yet. Is it because it's actually very hard do when using your own favoured smoke-clouded terms? Why is it "relegation" to use the perfectly official 'Republic of Ireland'? I find the outrageous censorship of the word 'Republic' on Wikipedia a thinly-veiled nationalistic attack on the British identity in Northern Ireland. That is unacceptable in itself. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am sorry; the end of my last contribution (now altered) was not clear. On reflection I agree that any use of "Ireland" for ROI is likely to be an imprecise usage, such as I was arguing against.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * censorship of the word 'Republic' on Wikipedia a thinly-veiled nationalistic attack on the British identity in Northern Ireland - is an aggressive statement Matt. Ireland is both the official and WP:COMMON name of my country, not some "smoke-clouded term". Sarah777 (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Funny you should bring that up now, I've just opened a MEDCAB case on this subject. In answer to you: ROI is known to the whole wide world as "Ireland"!!!!! That is why we must disambiguate with 'Republic' when confusion can arise. But some kind of blanket ban seems to surround doing it. There is a moratorium too (I call that a form of censorship myself - disallowing debate on a subject). If a moratorium is needed, it probably should never happen! In this taskforce, we are not allowed to advance here, it is suggested, because it is "unfair" that people cannot also disambiguate with "British Isles" in the same way!! Surely this guideline is as flexible as it can get? --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Earlier I suggested that we leave aside the Ireland/RoI debate from the British Isles debate. I make this suggestion again.  For the vast majority of articles a simple methodology will suffice to resolve the "British Isles" usage (in my opinion)
 * Is the subject matter physical geography? Is the subject one that affects the vast majority of the archipelago?  If yes to both, chances are that the term "British Isles" is the correct term.  There are a small number of exceptions - (see weightings table, article consensus exceptions, etc)
 * Is the subject matter human geography? If so, check references and if references of equal calibre exist for "British Isles" and other terms, give preference to other terms if possible
 * Is the subject matter a scientific subject (e.g. Archeology, geology, flora, fauna, etc). Use the same term that the domain-experts use in the scientific community.
 * For other articles, chances are that a geopolitical term is the correct term. Acceptable non-ambiguous political terms are as follows (see table)
 * --HighKing (talk) 17:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The pipe solution is perfectly acceptable. This is related to what we actually call the article about Ireland (state). There is no consensus, just a majority opinion, that the "description" be use in that article rather then the official and common name of the country. The moratorium must stay, or I for one, will immediately re-open the debate on the actual name of the article about my country. And to suggest that the common and official name of a country is a "thinly veiled attack" on anything is outrageous. (What is a 'MEDCAB' and where might one find this MEDCAB of yours?) Sarah777 (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

(indent) Its here Sarah,  I had to track it down from his contribution history as it wasn't posted to my talk page. -- Snowded  TALK  18:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction
"These guidelines cover the use of the term British Isles on Wikipedia. It is recommended that on Wikipedia the term should only be used in connection with geographical features. Although British Isles is widely and most typically used as a geographical term, it must be recognised that many editors on Wikipedia consider it to be a politicised term too. British Isles is the term used to describe the two large island groups of Great Britain and Ireland as a wider archipelagos. However, the term can cause confusion in relation to the island of 'Ireland', which is occupied by two countries, the sovereign state country of Republic of Ireland which is not British, and the smaller British constituent country of Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. Although the Republic of Ireland (often known as just ‘Ireland’) is technically part of the British Isles, many on Wikipedia do not wish for it to be misidentified as being 'British'. These guidelines specifically focus on the accepted use of the term British Isles regarding the island of Ireland.

Reliable sources can be found where the Channel Islands are said to be part of the British Isles (and this can be seen as a 'tradition' by some), however Wikipedia keeps to the strict geographical meaning of the archipelagos, and does not include those British islands off the coast of Europe in its definition.

In the wider world the term "British Isles" is often used in a colloquial and sometimes exaggerated sense, however a strict guideline-based use is recommended for the term on Wikipedia.

Note on comparative terms

It must be accepted that the act of comparing can be abused, so notability must come into play. Generally, it is not notable to say that something is greater than the third largest in the "British Isles" for any important geographical feature. If it is less significant, then second largest, or often just largest, would suffice."

Note on reliable sources

Unless the term British Isles is being used in a purely technical context (such as geology or natural history), reliable sources should be found to support its use. If a reliable source exists that uses term 'British Isles' contrary to Wikipedia's guidelines, and is needed for the text of an article, the term should be re-phrased according to the intended meaning of the term, and not appropriated into the text as "British Isles". If the term is part of a wider quote, a disclaimer per accepted convention needs to be applied.

Comments:


 * I've put this up to work on. I've tried to keep to the idea the Wikipedia is the 'unique' place here - and it works on consensus. So I've kept out reference to the wider world, to avoid disagreement on what constitutes 'many' etc out there. This isn't the place for that anyway - guidelines are guidelines for editors. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know what this should mean as far as policy, but it should be stated that Northern Ireland is probably the place where the term 'British Isles' is most controversial. Overemphasizing the RoI as the nexus of the issue and overemphasizing the 'Britishness' of Northern Ireland may not solve problems in the wider Wiki world. I'm also curious on the issue of ejecting the Channel Islands from the BI via guideline. Anyone know how the Channel Islanders tend to view the term in relation to their islands? Nuclare (talk) 04:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've started some rough guidelines below. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * First reading - seems reasonable though 'nation' is a tricky concept to introduce. It is the political entity of Northern Ireland which is occupied by two nations; basically the RoI is(part of) a single nation, the remainder of which is in NI. Sarah777 (talk) 11:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll change 'nation' to country (the actual nation article is hopeless anyway). I've added a 'comparative terms' parag per your comment below. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the above introduction, but consider the British Isles to be a single archipeligo, with Great Britain as the largest island and Ireland as the second largest. The status of the Channel Islands is problematic.  They are separated by teh English Channel from the rest.  Historically, they were part of the Duchy of Normandy and are dependencies belonging to the British Crown as parcel of that former Duchy, not as a possession of the English Crown.  This is why they (like the Isle of Man) are self-governing.  Peterkingiron (talk) 20:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Guideline A : ROI-heavy issue
(please note objection to use of ROI here, should be Ireland as per agreed table)

(counter objection to all occurrences of ROI since being removed from the tables!)

If Britain itself has little weight, it is recommended that the term ‘British Isles’ is not used in subjects that are specifically related to the Republic of Ireland. But bear in mind that many geographical subjects have an intrinsic connection to the archipelagos itself, and so the term is often relevant for them (see Guideline B in these cases).

Example of correct use

Carauntoohill is the highest mountain in Ireland

Example of incorrect use:

“Kelly of Donegal Rovers received attention throughout the British Isles for his ball playing skills.” As an alternative, "In Ireland and Britain" could be used. This is likely to be a colloquial exaggeration, so can be seen as unencyclopedic language in Wikipedia's terms.

Comments:

I can see the football example being used at times, but it certainly is less encyclopedic - and we are an encyclopedia at the end of the day. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Ireland and Britain" or "Britain and Ireland" are in widespread common usage in Ireland (and usually means what Wiki calls the "British Isles" - so that's fine, either way. "always relevant" - not so sure; "may be relevant" would be better. Sarah777 (talk) 11:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed "always" to "often". --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer "Great Britain and Ireland". GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Trouble is G'Day hard anyone uses the full term "Great Britain and Ireland" - it is nearly always shortened to "Britain and Ireland"; certainly as spoken. Or Britain'n'Ireland to be precise :) Sarah777 (talk) 17:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)This is obviously a human geography issue, therefore the term British Isles should not be used. They received attention in various countries, via country-specific newspapers, radio-stations, TV stations, etc. Therefore country names should be used. Not "Britain and Ireland" - these are geographic terms, but "UK and RoI", etc. --HighKing (talk) 16:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Guideline B : Britain and ROI-heavy issue
(please note objection to use of ROI here, should be Ireland as per agreed table) (please note counter objection, and that ROI was also on the table, and that Ireland is ambiguous)

Many geographical features are naturally connected to British Isles as a geographical term. To avoid the confusion that can arise from the word 'British' being connected in a political way to Ireland, various forms of phrasing can be used to help disambiguate. The use of 'United Kingdom' on some of these examples may acceptably be changed to 'British Isles' and vice versa, as neither is technically wrong.

ROI, Ireland and the UK - 'simple use' approach

 * "is the longest X in both the Republic of Ireland/ Ireland and the United Kingdom"


 * "is the longest X in both Ireland and the United Kingdom"


 * "is the longest X in both the island of Ireland and the wider United Kingdom"


 * commentcorrect would Ireland and Britain, United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland -- Snowded  TALK  17:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ireland here was meant to pipe the ROI - I've fixed it now. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments:

Some other forms of phrasing could be useful with all these... --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a couple more. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I would have thought using two geographical terms made more sense Matt. Britain and Ireland for example, rather than introducing the controversial Republic of Ireland.  In fact a general point here, you have switched in the guidelines to using Republic of Ireland, while in the tables you used Ireland.  I STRONGLY recommend we try and keep this geographical.  -- Snowded   TALK  07:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it politicises it to use ROI does it? We already use Britain. The ambiguity with the 'Ireland' term makes it very hard to write with it. The ROI is basically the ROI - and it's specifically what I meant when I've used it. Northern Ireland of course is in Britain - so 'Ireland (as an island)' has a whole new perspective when you picture in NI. It would have to be 'Great Britain and Ireland' - but what about the Isle of Man? Using 'UK and Ireland' is equally awkward, as the UK obviously has NI in it too, like Ireland. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to add - I always saw the two 'Irelands' in the Subject table as the ROI! (same as the Weight tables, which spell the Republic in full). I can't get it to add up as the island. I worked a lot on this yesterday and had to finish it this morning as I was too tired to check it last night and put it up as intended. I could kick myself for not noticing the 'Ireland' ambiguity in the boxes. Have we been on crossed lines? It shows you how bloody annoying the situation/term-use is if nothing else!--Matt Lewis (talk) 07:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * response in new section. -- Snowded   TALK  08:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "RoI" is a purely political term - let's not stray from our first principles. If we are speaking geographically it should be "Britain and Ireland". Sarah777 (talk) 11:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm replying below... --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, "Great Britain and Ireland" is preffered. GoodDay (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, for this type of article, I have no objection to using the term "British Isles", although I am sensitive to the fact that there are other Irish editors that object to any use of the term British Isles in relation to Ireland. Since we are referring to geographic articles, we should use geographic terms such as "Great Britain" or "Ireland".  We should not use RoI or UK.  --HighKing (talk) 16:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

ROI, Ireland and Britain 'disambiguating' approach
There are a choice of accepted approaches here:

i. The ”island” route

 * "is the longest X in both the island of Ireland and the wider British Isles"

Comments:

In most cases the Republic of Ireland could be better here, imo. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, 'RoI' is a purely political term. "is the longest X in Ireland and the wider British Isles" would be better. Sarah777 (talk) 11:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Cannot people have a choice? I'm trying to do a pro-choice (non-censorship) guideline. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the article is geographical, we should use geographical terms. Therefore I disagree with RoI.  --HighKing (talk) 16:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

ii. The Republic of Ireland route

 * "is the longest X in the Republic of Ireland and the greater British Isles"


 * "is the longest X in both the Republic of Ireland and the greater British Isles"


 * "is the longest X in the Republic of Ireland and the surrounding British Isles"

Comments:

I favour using Republic of Ireland whenever the term 'British Isles' is used. It could also be good to give people some choice of phrasing. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Same comment as above. If the article is geographical, use geographical terms, and not ROI. --HighKing (talk) 16:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

iii. The Ireland (piped to Republic of Ireland) route

 * "is the longest X in Ireland and the wider British Isles"


 * "is the longest X in both Ireland and the wider British Isles"


 * "is the longest X in Ireland and the surrounding British Isles"

Comments:

I would personally not use the Ireland/ROI pipe at all when 'British Isles' is used - it is simply adds to the ambiguity. So I would recommend against the above in the guideline. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Repetition here but RoI has no place in geography. Dublin is the largest city in Ireland. - Belfast in the largest city in NI and second largest in Ireland - Cork is the second largest City in the Republic of Ireland and the third largest on the island of Ireland. And it should never be stated that Cork is the second largest City in the RoI and the 30th largest in the British Isles! (Everything in Ireland is potentially at some number in "British Isles" terms). - Sarah777 (talk) 11:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This weight aspect was brought up at some point before (it's why we need weight!). I forgot to add it but will... --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a "Note on comparative terms" to the Introduction above - can you look at it? --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Same comment as above. Only use geographical terms if the article is discussing physical geography => do not use RoI or UK. --HighKing (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Guideline C : Britain-heavy issue
British Isles is a collective term. Unless the term clearly relates to the whole of the British Isles (such as geographical features like the longest river etc), the term can be used (when regarding Britain-heavy issues) for less than the entirety of the isles. As a rule of thumb, it is acceptable to use the term here when the subject covers three or more countries or islands within the British Isles (including the Republic of Ireland, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man and any smaller islands or areas). If only two places are concerned, just their two names are all that are recommended. Remember that the term British Isles is always an optional expression, and there are always other ways to describe the situation.

Do not mislead!

The island of Ireland and its surrounding isles is a principle part of the British Isles. If the reader would reasonably expect all or part of the island of Ireland to be included in the term, then to use of the term British Isles when the island of Ireland is ‘’not’’ involved would be misleading, and so should not be done. This is especially true when the aspects involved are more simple locations, and are less geographical in nature (ie containing flora, fauna etc).

Examples of correct use:


 * “The band toured England and Northern Ireland” When the band toured just those two countries. "British Isles" should not be used here.


 * “The band toured the British Isles.” When the band toured Wales, Ireland and Northern Ireland. However, in this particular case, naming the actual countries would be a better and more informative alternative, as only part of the British Isles was covered.
 * Comment This would be incorrect, naming the countries should be the correct version-- Snowded  TALK  17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How can we restrict to more than 3 countries (with one from Ireland too)? I can't see more than a strong however working here - it will be seen as too censorious for a British-heavy issue. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The article is not concerning a geographic topic, and the subject involves people and countries. Bands tour countries, not land masses.  Unless a reference by the band (primary source) indicates that they toured the British Isles, avoid the term and list the countries.  --HighKing (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * “The band toured the British Isles.” When the band toured all or most of the British Isles, including at least one the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
 * Comment This I think is OK, it the band went somewhere in Ireland and somewhere in britain it would work -- Snowded   TALK  17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But that could be seen as too subjective a concession, based on the above restriction. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * “The band toured Britain / the UK”. When the band toured England, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man. The use of ‘British Isles’ would be misleading here, as a reader could reasonably expect the island of Ireland to be involved when a touring band is the subject and the term ‘British Isles’ was used. "The Band toured Great Britain and the Isle of Man" would be a more informative line. Alternatively again, a simple list could be used here too.


 * Comment - List the countries is preferable - The band toured England, Scotland, Wales, and the Isle of Man. Alternatively, sometimes it is possible to use the term "British", in that "The band's British tour".  Not always possible though.... --HighKing (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Added to example per suggestion. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "The tour of the British Isles eventually entailed a birdwatching trip around the islands of western Scotland, a nearby view of the summit of Snowden (his fear of heights allowed him no nearer), and an accompanied flight in a glider over the Pennines. Sketches of these became a series of celebrated paintings on his return, exhibited during.." Where there are reliable sources that uses "British Isles" in the context of the trip. In this case the reader can accept that the British Isles as wider geographical entity (rather than a collection of national boundaries) is a significant aspect of the text. Without sources, the term would not normally be used by a wikipedia editor here, as people would reasonably expect Ireland to feature on such a tour. As flora and fauna feature, however, the source itself does not contravene the usage guidelines, so can be used.


 * Comment - If the references support this usage, fine. Otherwise, I'd rewrite the start of the sentence to exclude "of the British Isles".  --HighKing (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Adding a little to the example here, but it's hard to strictly say it can't be used. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments:

When the ROI is less significant, I feel the term can be used more flexibly (ie 'geographical' in the looser sense of moving to and from places). --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment (moved down) I disagree, British Isles is only correct if applied to the islands of Britain and Ireland as a whole. Under the avove rules the Severn can be the longest river in the British Isles -- Snowded   TALK  16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added the river factor in. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As you must also disagree with most of the above, I've moved this comment down so I can reply to it - and you must disagree with most of the examples given too. (you could actually change the word 'comment' to 'disagree' if there is a fundamental disagreement).


 * The problem here is that I doubt we are going to get supporters of the term to agree to a strict "four corners" usage rule regarding British-heavy use. I've seen British Isles used for England and Ireland etc. We can certainly cut the superfluous use of it through guidelines, but can we force people to only mean every corner of the British Isles? I'm not sure we can. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment we are trying to create a set of logical coherent guidelines. The confusion of British Isles with Britain creates political tension so legitimising it here is a mistake. -- Snowded   TALK  17:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If they don't actually mean "The British Isles" then, yes, we can surely insist they don't call it the "British Isles"!! It doesn't really matter how heavy the issue is!!! Sarah777 (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But it's a British-heavy issue - I think you’re asking for too much here. I don't see the 'political tensions' anyway (they are all on-Wiki tensions imo - it's a myth to say the exist in any great extent in the wider world). You are enforcing too many restrictions on the word here IMO. We already have a situation where all the BI people (apart from me) simply haven't got involved with this guideline (or have backed off). That means we must be doubly wary about what they must be thinking. And it's up to me to work on their behalf I feel. You know what will come up later here - this looks like too much censorship (and I would have to agree).--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * IF its British Heavy and does not include the island of Ireland then its likely that "Britain" or "United Kingdom" would be fine (or England and Wales for example).  Its not an issue of censorship Matt, its a question of using terms correctly.  I was one of those who argued for the persistence of British Isles as a valid geographical term.  If it can be used both with and without Ireland then I think that gives ammunition to those who think the BI supporters are pushing a POV.  -- Snowded   TALK  18:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The island of Ireland must be included, when we use the term British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought I made it clear through the examples that that was the case. Also read the "Do not mislead!" part. I'll make it even clearer if you like. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just reminding people. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I can't make it much clearer - it just seems to be too censorious. People need the right to say "much of the British Isles" too, especially if island-hopping, wildlife, or sailing or something was a big factor. We can't just enforce a visit to Ireland in those cases. We can be very strong though - I'll try and be stronger. Remember its an archipelagos of quite a number of little islands, and people like to use it in that geographical sense. I've stated clearly with the last band example that people would assume Ireland must be involved (and so should be) - but this wouldn't always be the case. I'll try and find another example to show a different case.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's certainly a walking on a 'tight rope in the wind' effort; but that's what this Task-force is for. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

(indent) I don't know why you are using the idea of censorship. No one is trying to exclude a term, if it is correctly applied. -- Snowded  TALK  18:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm speaking on people's behalf, remember. When this gets closer to the edit this place will fill up I'm sure of it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes Matt; and I'm speaking on behalf of most of the people of Ireland. people like to use it [BI] in that geographical sense - indeed they do. And I'd like to never have to see it used in any context ever where Ireland is included. So we can deal here: let's agree that in British articles folk can use it in every second sentence but never imply anywhere that it refers to or includes Ireland. I'd certainly go with that. Sarah777 (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of them are more than capable of speaking for themselves Matt! We can only deal with the editors as is.  I really think its very simple, keep to geographical terms and use them accurately.  Introduce political terms or allow inaccurate use and we loose the whole point of this exercise.  -- Snowded   TALK  19:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that immediately favours one of the political sides. And its impossible too, or beyond me at least - I've tried and just cannot keep it totally geographical. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately for you Matt, what you are stating is that it is indeed  a political term, as we have maintained all along. Therefore it must from now on exclude the Republic of Ireland - in every and any context. Welcome to the the logical conclusion! Sarah777 (talk) 18:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

(Section moved - I hope as requested). Peterkingiron (talk)

In the examples given above, I would suggest that a band touring England, Scotland and IoM toured "Great Britain and Isle of Man". If it also went to NI, it toured UK. Only if it also visited RoI would it be correct to say it toured the British Isles. Peterkingiron (talk)
 * Is this where you wanted it placed? I was not seeking to imply that NI was not part of Ireland, but there is a better omnibus descriptive term to use.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi - I just moved it up a bit further. Sorry I didn't reply after asking you to move it - I had to take a sudden rain check as I realised I'd been on too long and my eyes started spinning! I like your "Great Britain and the IoM" suggestion and I'll write it in to the above. We have to be careful not to stray into a wider type of guideline though (here at least). There will be problems with 'fully' suggesting it though, and with anything here - this particular 'Britain-heavy' section is going to have to be the most flexible (this is partly why I needed to reply to you here). RE your Ireland suggestion, I can see the logic, but I just know there are a significant group of editors who won't buy it - and we need to create something that they will. I wrote a new example above that demonstrates how the term actually can survive without Ireland even being involved. I think this guideline will only ever get passed if we retain as much flexibility as we can, while detailing as many 'notes' (which are often restrictions) on usage as possible. I hope that makes some sense. If you follow this towards its conclusion, you will see when it comes closer to the Manual of Style (MOS) guideline pages how strongly some people feel about the subject (if you have never witnessed it before). There are a few absent faces at the moment - but they'll be back! --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Guideline D : Regional/Country (not Ireland) heavy issue
Where a geographical entity has significance within a region or country then there is no need to use the term British Isles. For example the River Thames is the largest river in the South of England, Snowdon is the highest mountain in Wales (no reason to mention England and Wales). On the other hand Ben Nevis is the largest mountain in Scotland, and in the British Isles. -- Snowded  TALK  16:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments:

Not entirely sure what this is. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hopefully that clarifies it -- Snowded   TALK  16:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Guideline E : Secondary usage
When referring to the British Isles as the entire archipelago in the geographical sense, from an otherwise unrelated article, the term "British Isles" can be used.

Example of correct use

"This can also be observed in other northerly regions like the British Isles". When the subject is geographical, or relates to natural history.

Example of incorrect use:

"The aid workers came to Africa from the British Isles": When the aid workers came from Britain and Ireland. It should say "aid workers came from Britain and Ireland". Africa would would over-ride the use of 'British Isles' in subject importance, and there is no actual geographical meaning regarding the use of "British Isles" (only national identity), so "Britain and Ireland" would be the preferable term to use here.

Comments:

This probably needs developing. --Matt Lewis (talk)
 * "Archipelgos" is plural. The British Isles is a single archipeligo.  Peterkingiron (talk) 20:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, corrected. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Quotes like this must only be used if the only references to the aid workers state that they came from the British Isles. Otherwise, the nationalities should be spelled out - either "British and Irish" (preferred if an exact list may not be known", or "from England, Ireland, Wales, and Channel Islands when an exact list is known. --HighKing (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think if a reference said they came from the British Isles here, then it would counter-act Wikipedias guideline on word usage (per the way we are currently spelling it out). It would need to be re-phrased (and certainly not 'appropriated'). I'll add this fact to the main guideline text. If it was is a longer quote that needed to be quoted in full, then it would needs some kind of explaining footnote per convention. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Further comments on suggested guidelines
In general, this discussion has veered away from the original guidelines, and drawing the Ireland/ROI debate into this discussion is not helping.

In general, there is also a mixing-up of the original "physical geography" guideline, and geopolitical examples. In general, if it involves people, it should use country names. For example, a band tours countries - UK, ROI, etc, and not land masses. And aid workers have nationalities and therefore come from countries, not land masses. --HighKing (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It needs to be flexible. I never saw it as "no culture allowed". The ROI will simply provide options that people can choose. I don't like the blatant censorship of it to be honest, but I'll probably let it go if people agree to "Ireland and the wider British Isles" or some such variants on that. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)