Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Category:Czech monarchs

The following discussion comes from Categories for deletion. This is an archive of the discussion only; please do not edit this page. -Kbdank71 21:15, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Category:Czech monarchs
There appears to be a consensus that this should be Category:Bohemian monarchs. (The category has been depopulated and all articles have been moved thence.) In an ideal world Category:Czech monarchs would redirect there - the two are, for all intents and purposes, one and the same - but this is not currently available. -- Itai 22:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * What about Samo and the rulers of Great Moravia? Shouldn't we attach them to the "Czech rulers" categories branch in some way? Martg76 00:50, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * (1) Bohemian means referring to Bohemia (=western Czechia/Czech lands), Czech means today referring to Bohemia or referring to Czechia/Czech lands (= Bohemia + Moravia + other terr.), but historically Czech is simply the Czech word for Bohemian (there is no equivalent for Bohemia or Bohemian in Czech, only in German or French); so actually both Czech and Bohemian is correct, Bohemian historically probably more correct, (2) Samo and Great Moravia do not belong below Bohemian or Czech monarchs. Major reasons: (a) Samo is 7th century, GM basically 9 th century, the state of Bohemia arose only in the late 9th century as a western neighbour of Great Moravia, (b) Samo was a Frankish person who ruled the territory around the southern Moravia river and also conquered the later Bohemian territory for some time. In the 7th century there were no Czechs whatsoever, there were only generally "Slavs". Great Moravia was a state of proto-Slovaks and proto-Moravians. Since it existed parallely with Bohemia, it's rulers cannot be Bohemian rulers - except for Svatopluk, who conquered Bohemia for some 5 years. They can only be "rulers of on a part of the territory of what is now the Czech Republic". (3) The term monarch is somewhat confusing for me. I think ruler would be better, because it is more general: for example the Czech rulers were princes and dukes first and only then kings: does "monarch" include local princes?? Juro 03:31, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks Juro for this clarification. So let's delete Category:Czech monarchs. I agree that the term monarchs is not ideal, especially in a medieval feudal structure where the degree of independence varied over time. "Monarch" seems to imply a completely sovereign state to me. I would also prefer the term ruler, as we have it in Category:Rulers of Austria, which includes everyone from the first Margraves to the Emperors up to 1918. Ideally, there should be subcategories. Martg76 23:35, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)