Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 20



Category:Disney actors

 * The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete and salt. BencherliteTalk 11:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * disney actors


 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Speedy delete and salt - likely to be continually recreated. Otto4711 (talk) 23:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom - maybe salt. Johnbod (talk) 16:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete and salt per Otto4711. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete and prevent recreation. per nom, otto, etc. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Companies based in El Dorado County

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The result of the debate was rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Companies based in El Dorado County to Category:Companies based in El Dorado County, California
 * Nominator's rationale: Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Rename. Categories really need to be disambiguated. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename. as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  22:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Companies based in Del Norte County

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The result of the debate was rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Companies based in Del Norte County to Category:Companies based in Del Norte County, California
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Rename. Categories really need to be disambiguated. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  22:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Power Standards

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The result of the debate was relist. BencherliteTalk 00:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * power standards


 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Delete these things don't really seem to go togehter. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * keep and rename to Category:Integrated circuit power standards. The articles do go together and more articles can be added.  I added various appropriate categories. Hmains (talk) 03:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:American Academy of Arts and Sciences

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The result of the debate was relist given nominator's change of view and lack of comments thereupon. BencherliteTalk 00:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC) american academy of arts and sciences
 * Rename to Category:Members of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences to better reflect the actual usage of the category. (Similar to, for example, Category:Members and associates of the United States National Academy of Sciences.) ( Cgingold (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Listify and Delete - overcategorization by award or honor. As a side note, I see that yet again we have a main article for an award that asserts without citation that this award is second only to the Nobel prize in terms of prestige. This must be the fifth award so claimed that's come up here in the last few months. Otto4711 (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I tend to agree that national Academy memberships, while a signal honor that is usually a strong sign of notability, are rarely defining, per se. However, listifying gives me pause because membership is usually numerous, and since many people will be so involved, the list/articles are quite lengthy. --Lquilter (talk) 14:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Change proposal to Merge to Category:Fellows of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. I just discovered that we have a parent Category:Members of learned societies which has 30 sub-cats, among them Category:Fellows of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Since that already exists, I think it makes more sense to make use of it rather than create a new and duplicative Category:Members of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. In addition, it should be noted that the American Academy of Arts and Sciences is fully on a par with the other groups in Category:Members of learned societies, so Category:American Academy of Arts and Sciences should not be singled out for deletion. And lastly, the parent cats of Category:American Academy of Arts and Sciences should be added to Category:Fellows of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, since it currently is only in the aforementioned Category:Members of learned societies. Cgingold (talk) 13:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Anomalies

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Anomalies in physics. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * anomalies


 * Rename to Category:Anomalies in quantum physics for definition and clarity. There are all sorts of anomalies, most of which fall outside the realm of quantum physics.  Cgingold (talk) 19:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Anomalies in physics. I don't think the "quantum" part is necessary. The article is at Anomaly (physics), not Anomaly (quantum physics). Snocrates 21:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Anomalies in physics per Snocrates. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Category:Anomalies in physics is fine with me -- may as well keep it simple. Cgingold (talk) 21:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
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Rugrats

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 * The result of the discussion was: delete, empty. BencherliteTalk 11:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * rugrats season 3 episodes
 * rugrats season 4 episodes
 * Merge both into Category:Rugrats episodes, convention of Category:Television episodes by series. -- Prove It (talk) 17:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as empty. Otto4711 (talk) 16:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge as per nom. Plenty of candidates for the category in List of Rugrats episodes.  Sting_au   Talk  22:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


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Category:Raging Planet releases

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The result of the debate was delete and split. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * raging planet releases
 * Delete, divide between Category:Raging Planet artists, convention of Category:Artists by record label, and Category:Raging Planet albums, convention of Category:Albums by record label. -- Prove It (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  23:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Female models

 * The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Send some editors to their rooms to think about being nice and civil to each other I have to say that you've all made quite a mess of this. ANd recategorising/creating an entire category scheme while the category is under discussion? I'm going to sidestep the flamewars below, for a moment, and just make a few comments. Category:Women by occupation does exist, but its existance is questionable per many previous discussions. The main reason for deletion for such categories in the past was that there is simply no reason to duplicate the category structure by splitting it by gender (essentially having 2 of everything). Anyway, as for this discussion, I'm going to close this as "No consensus", with a suggestion that Category:Women by occupation and its subcats be discussed as to whether each deserves the "exception" that has been bandied about. (Noting that even Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality claims that this has been controversial.) - jc37 12:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * female models


 * Nominator's rationale: Added recommendation: Cat redirect to Category:Models, since someone will likely use it in the future instead of something more specific. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Previously discussed at CfD 2007 January 10, with a result of "keep". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * For reference a previous discussion (January 2007) is here (closed as "keep"). BencherliteTalk 21:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, that was already posted, above. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 22:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I posted first, BHG posted second: check the timestamps!. BencherliteTalk 23:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * D'oh. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 23:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Male models is already subdivided by nationality, and the same should be one for female models, to avoid duplicate classification. I really do wonder what on earth is going on with some of these nominations. How many time do we have to revisit a topic which is clearly covered in the guidelines? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. Please folks, don't forget to check for previous CfDs, which should be listed in the nomination. And before nominating gendered categories, please read WP:CATGRS, which permits gendered categories in certain circumstances, particularly "where gender has a specific relation to the topic". WP:CATGRS notes that "'at all times, the bottom line remains can a valid, encyclopedic head article be written for this grouping?'". Does anyone seriously want to claim that gender does not have a specific relevance to the career of a model? Or that an encyclopedic head article could not be written on the subject of female models?
 * Reply: Point taken that it should have been mentioned. But just because this category has been at CfD before does not magically make it immune from future deletion consideration, esp. since most of a year has intervened, and the consensus against gender division in categories here has become a landslide. I cannot think of an encyclopedically valid reason to have separate articles on female and male modeling in general, so the criterion you cite seems questionable to me. Narrower topics, like, say, sexual harassment, might warrant their own well-researched articles, and there might well be a gender divide there, but the category in question is not Category:Female models who have been sexually harassed. Even assuming one could somehow drawn a bright-line distinction, in some encyclopedically relevant way, between the fields of female and male modeling, how likely is such a distinction to be documentable with multiple reliable sources? I remain highly skeptical, or such an article would probably already exist. I think that best that is likely to happen is a section with a few paragraphs about male modeling and how comparatively small and unglamorous it is in comparison with female modeling and its wealthy supermodels. On what basis is your "keep" !vote "strong"? —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 22:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply My keep vote is "strong" because it is absolutely clear that it meets the criteria of WP:CATGRS. The career of a female model is substantially different from that of a male model, and it is a culturally significant subject which routinely achieves massive coverage in the general press, partucularly in regard to the career options open to women and to effects of female modelling on the female self-image and on societal perception of women. Here are some references which I found in two minutes, simply by scanning existing wikipedia articles:, , ; see also Size zero, about the long-running controversy over the effect of modelling on the body-image of women, which has prompted government intervention in some countries; see Naomi Wolf]]'s book The Beauty Myth. That's just a quick start, but I have left a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender Studies, where I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who can provide pages full of references. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply lots of things that are "culturally significant topics" do not need separate categories. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep - I'm not sure where this "overwhelming precedent" is coming from, but in any case, precedent of other topics is irrelevant because each such intersection has to be examined on its own merits to determine whether a head article can be written that would support the category. See WP:CATGRS.  For female models, gender is a defining attribute: casting calls and advertisements for models are invariably gender-specific. The roles and rewards and careers of models are different, based on their gender. --Lquilter (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: That you seem unaware of the overwhelming precedent does not mean that it doesn't exist. We do not categorize separately by gender, whether it be actors, sportspeople, US Senators, etc., etc., etc.  Also, it is not a safe assumption that because something has been at XfD before that its re-XfDing is some kind of mistake on the part of the re-nominator.  Dumb category and other page ideas frequently get XfDed multiple times before finally being deleted; they usually only survive the first time through flukes, like activist and cavassing editors trying to save them, malformed or poorly reasoned initial deletion nominations, etc. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 22:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue is not that I am unfamiliar with precedent, as you suggest, but that I do not agree that there is overwhelming precedent (and do not agree that it is relevant in any case, since the standard from WP:CATGRS is whether a head article can be written). Could you please respond to my substantive points about significant distinctions in the careers of male and female models? --Lquilter (talk) 02:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: I do not find them substantive. You are mistaking the entire nature of this CfD. It has nothing to do with anything you are talking about, only to do with the fact that all of the models in question are already categorized in more specific categories, this category has no subcategories at all other than ones you created in an apparent attempt to force concensus to go your way, and serves no purpose. You can make an argument that every category like Category:Greek fashion models should be divided into male and female subcategories, which ultimately could lead back to a high-level category of this name, but this is not the case now, this is not the issue at the table, and it is of no relevance at all.  If consensus eventually does want a solution like that, it will talk all of 10 seconds to recreate this category.  There are no consequences of any kind to deleting this pointless category, no matter how much you want to turn this into a debate about sexism (and accuse me of it). —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe I have accused you of anything. ??? Back to my substantive points: You have proposed to delete Category:Female models; the standard for WP:CATGRS is whether a head article can be written; BHG and I have adduced a number of cites suggesting that it can. Why should this category be an exception from the usual rule of WP:CATGRS? --Lquilter (talk) 07:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - the required gendered category here is Category:Male models because the default assumption of the language is that "model" refers to females. Just as, as WP:CATGRS also notes, the encyclopedically valid Category:Female heads of government does not need to be counterbalanced by Category:Male heads of government, Category:Male models does not need to be counterbalanced by a corresponding female models category. Otto4711 (talk) 22:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The existence of a few narrow exceptions like the heads of state one doesn't militate for expanding the idea across the board. Other categories of this sort, such as Category:Male porn stars or Category:Female athletes, should also arguably be deleted, as they simply do not rise to the level of rarity that female heads of state do. The key question to ask is whether the intersection of gender and other categorizer is so unusual as to be defining in an encyclopedically useful way. Female heads of state (so far), yes.  Female models, hell no. Male models, also no in my book, and same goes for female athletes and male porn stars and most of the other lingering pointless categories of this sort. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Correction. Nominator, please re-read WP:CATGRS. The key question is not "whether the intersection is so unusual", and that is not a quote from the guideline. WP:CATGRS says "at all times, the bottom line remains can a valid, encyclopedic head article be written for this grouping?". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And to respond to the "defining attribute" bit, actors and actresses are defined by their sex as well. The sex of an actor or actress is going to have a tremendous impact on the roles they will be offered and casting calls and advertisements for actors and actresses are overwhelmingly if not invariably sex-specific too. Yet we do not categorize actors and actresses separately and we shouldn't categorize female models separately on that basis. Otto4711 (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Precisely. And the category is useless. It is ridiculously underpopulated, and guess why - virtually all article subjects that could be classified here have already been classified under far more specific categories. If this category actually were populated, it would be so large as to be virtually unusable. I also have to note that none of the categories that could be subcats of this one are; this category is not part of any kind of nomenclature system here, but a lazy add-on by people who could not be bothered to think of something more specific and see whether a category for it exists yet (e.g. Category:Greek fashion models, etc., as already mentioned). —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Under-population is not an argument for deletion, it is an argument for populating the categories. The idea that it would be too large is fully populated is simply wrong: as already proposed, it should be subdivided by country, just as Category:Male models has been.  The category exists, and has been used quite properly, and need not be used to the exclusion of any other category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Correction: I did not submit underpopulation as a deletion argument, I exhibit as concrete proof that the the category is not needed - all of its member articles are already appropriately categorized much more specifically, and this category only exists at all as random afterthought, created by people who are not aware that we do not have F/M category division except in really unusual cases. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Underpopulation not a reason for deletion, unless the category has no potential for groeth per WP:OCAT. It is also not much use as proof that a catrgory is not needed, because categories can be undepopulate for all sorts of reasons, such as editors being unaware of their existence (I regularly find such actegories and populate them). As to your last point, the question at stake here os whether this is one of those unusual cases; there is disagreement on that point, but that's no reason to dismiss the category as a "ranom afterthought", or to assume that it was created by people unaware of the guidelines; it could equally have been created by people well awre of the guidelines, who reached a different conclusion to yours. Please can you stop assuming that anyone who reached a different conclusion to yours has acted out of ignorance? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Civility. The nominator of this AfD is appears to be angry about the existence of the category, but I am concerned that women may be deterred from participating in this discussion on a female category by the language used by the male nominator. It is not civil to:
 * describe those who populated this category as "lazy", and as "people who could not be bothered to think"
 * describe this as "dumb category" which can survive only by "activist and cavassing editors "
 * calling the category "useless", "ridiculously underpopulated"
 * This sort of language comes across as highly aggressive, and could be interpreted as misogynist; it is quite inappropriate for CfD. Please may I ask the nominator to remain civil and to assume good faith on the part of those who created this category and those who argue for its retention. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - while I agree that the language is aggressive, attempting to paint it or the nominator as misogynist is over-the-top. Unless of course you're assuming that "aggression" equals "male" in which case you may be guilty of making the same sort of assumptions you're accusing the nominator of. Let's all focus on the category, shall we? Otto4711 (talk) 13:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment and then some No kidding. BrownHairedGirl, you have a lot of nerve throwing up a civility warning in the face of someone you then accuse of woman-hatred.  I could say a lot of other things here, but I'm just going to stop now or I really will be incivil and might get blocked for the first time in my Wikilife for a richly deserved WP:NPA violation in your direction. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply. SMcCandlish, I didn't accuse you, I pointed how this can be interpreted and askes for civility. If you don't want questions asked about what's going on here, then please stop displaying so much aggression. All I am asking is that you assume that the category was created in good faith by intelligent editors, who you believe to be mistaken, and that you desist from attaching labels such as "dumb", "lazy" and "ridiculous" to issues involving women. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * *Strong reply: This is precisely the off-kilter and downright fallacious argument I've been talking about (not to mention that it's also another ad hominem attack argument; you are blatantly attempting for the second time in a row to character-assassinate me as a sexist, as a handwave to distract everyone from what this CfD is actually about (a redundant category). Distinguish between the political issues surrounding the topic of category and the category itself (one is something of substance - a subset of people, of a particular gender in a particular occupation - about which socio-political issues may swirl the other is an abitrary, virtual abstraction or organizing articles; like the words of Christ versus a particular copy of the bible, or your country as a geopolitical entity, and a piece of cloth on a flagpole that is a stand-in for it). The politics have nothing to do with it, and the existence of the category (or not) has nothing to do with anyone's position on that topic. You seem to be willfully making a Korzybskian error of mistaking the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.  Redundant categories are dumb, lazy and ridiculous - that's what they get deleted all the time.  Categories don't get special treatment just because their topic happens to be sensitive. If they aren't needed, we don't keep them. The article in question are already completely adequately categorized. That is it, no more, no less. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 22:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody in this debate is asking for special treatment because a topic is sensitive, just that it be discussed rationally in wrt to the relevant guideline rather than by attaching pejorative labels such as "dumb, lazy and ridiculous". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have created the subcategories in response to a criticism by the nominator that some of the articles were improperly categorised, and the female models category is now integrated into the. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete if BrownHairedGirl thinks a "valid, encyclopedic head article" can be written, maybe she should write it as currently male model is a simple redirect to model (person). I also note that she has pre-empted this debate and | begun creating subcategories while this discussion is taking place. Tim! (talk) 19:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply. Tim, please read WP:CATGRS: "If a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) cannot be written for such a category, then the category should not be created. Please note that this does not mean that the head article must already exist before a category can be created, but that it must be at least possible to create one" (emphasis added).
 * I have read it, I just don't believe your assertion that such an article can be written, but you are more than welcome to prove me wrong. Tim! (talk) 20:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to take one small aspect of it, consider the term "superwaif", a neologism used to describe the near anorexic young female models who have been the subject of much controversy 2640 ghits, and 9 hits on google scholar. There's quite enough to write an encyclopedic head article on just that one aspect of female models. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Cites I generated from 5 minutes on the Internet that can support a head article on female models: Shut Up and Smile: Supermodels, the Dark Side by Ian Halperin (1999); Black and Beautiful: How Women of Color Changed the Fashion Industry by Barbara Summers (racism within modeling); Model: The Ugly Business of Beautiful Women by Michael Gross (2003) (history of female modeling); Skin Deep: Inside the World of Black Fashion Models by Barbara Summers (1999); "Fierce Pussies and Lesbian Avengers: Dyke Activism Meets Celebrity Culture" Ann Cvetkovich (images of female models merging infiltrating other cultures). If I searched some subscription databases I'm certain I can come up with many on the issue of body image; celebrity culture; racism; history and ties from artist models, pornography, beauty pageants, and other female professions; and many other gendered analyses of the profession. --Lquilter (talk) 23:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per the keepers. Category does not seem that "tiny" to me, given that (please God) not every model has an article. It's true there are not too many US (34) or English (7) ones, but the Czechs and Italians have strong contingents. Is there something we should be told?  Johnbod (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply The issue there is simply population of the categories. I spent some time yesterday dispersing Category:Female models to the national subcats, and I also dispersed some of the smaller ungendered models-by-nationality categories  to their gendered subcats (including the Czechs, Italians and Israelis). There are squillions of female models in Category:American models, ready to be moved to Category:American female models if anyone has the time. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue was never population of the category (it is plural now only because you went and created more of them instead of waiting to see if consensus would be to keep even one of them), but of its redundancy and secondarily Wikipedia's resistance to gender-specific categories without a compelling reason, on a per-topic basis to have them. Please do not miscast the deletion nomination (again). —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 22:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

SMcCandlish complained above that if populated, the category would be too large, so I followed the usual solution and created subcategories ... and in return I get called an "activist and canvassing editor" and "blinded by their ideology". If someone can't engage in civil discussion of how a category stacks up against the guidelines, assuming good faith on the part of other editors, what is the point of bring an issue to Categories for discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC) As to the language used, it may indeed be that there was nothing particularly anti-woman about your use of those terms here, and that you are in the habit of using derogatory terms in on other subjects when people disagree with you, in which case I stand corected. If you take the the time to check out any one of a number of CfD debates relating to WP:CATGRS, you will see that I have applied the same tests, and often supported deletion. It's a real pity that when there have been several substantive responses here addressing the criteria in the relevant guideline, you prefer to make assumptions about my "beliefs and feelings on gender issues" when I have not discussed them are not at issue. We have here a specific, relevant guideline; please do try to adress the tests which it sets. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * keep gender is certainly a defining characteristic of models.  Hmains (talk) 18:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Gender is a defining characteristic of almost everyone. "Defining characteristic" isn't the standard that's used for gendered categories. Otto4711 (talk) 23:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, Otto. But BrownHairedGirl has gone and made a huge mess of this by replicating this category all through the modelling hierarchy. (Remember my allegedly incivil comment about "activist and cavassing editors"? An old legal maxim of in-spirit relevance here: "Truth of the allegation is an absolute defense against charges of defamation." >;-)  Anyway, spreading the category like wildfire is no different from sabotaging a CfD by depopulating the category before the debate is over. This now needs to be a mass-CfD. &lt;sigh>  I probably won't do it myself, as I have better things to do, and I don't want to argue with people so blinded by their ideology that they can't understand the difference between pointing out that a category isn't needed and an attack against their socio-political views (which, ironically, I share). Since I'm already branded a kitten-stabber, and I'm genuinely ticked off about it, I don't think my participating any further on this one (or a mass-nom followup, other than a "delete per nom and per previous nom") will be productive. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply. Sigh :(
 * It is precisely as manipulative of a CfD to go and aggressively populate a category to try to make your WP:POINT seem stronger and the category more onerous to delete as it is to do the opposite and depopulate a category out from under everyone's noses, so that it no longer seems worth discussing, when the CfD on that category is still ongoing. AGF?  I fail to see how you can possibly expect any assumption of good faith any longer after you've character assassinated someone, in frankly really nasty terms, twice back-to-back.  You've demonstrated clearly that you are not in fact acting in good faith in this debate, and have therefore lost any right to that assumption.  I stand firmly by my observation that you will not see past your beliefs and feelings on gender issues (which are not at stake here, and which I would ironically almost certain agree with you on completely, if we were actually having that discussion), to actually address the entirely neutral point of this CfD. How else can you possibly mistake criticism of a category and whether it makes sense to have it, as an attack against women? You've directly stated that that's what you think I'm doing, and I cannot fathom how you could arrive at such a conclusion other than issue-blindness.  I also have to stand again by my observation that you are using "gaming the system" techniques to shape the CfD outcome, not to mention ad hominem attacks.  All three of these tactics of yours are woefully fallacious, and your sexism accusations in particular reek of argumentum ad Hitlerum and Godwin's law, simply substituting "misogynist" for "nazi". The sad thing is, you'll probably actually win. Fallacious as they are, such tactics are often effective. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 22:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, you've been misquoting and selectively quoting me the entire time, to present a straw man. I did not label any editors lazy or dumb. I labelled a category lazy and dumb. I did not say that any editor could not be bothered to think. I said that some evidently could not be bothered to think of something more specific and see whether appropriate categories already existed (they did and still do); most editors don't seem to have that problem, since comparatively hardly any articles were actually in this category, given the number of model articles there are, already more specifically categorized. Calling a category useless and underpopulated is not a civility issue.  I'm sorry that you seem to want to interpret any criticism of a category that is in some way related to women, to be somehow necessarily a criticism of women or of feminism. It just isn't.  Baseball and billiards already have categories. If someone created a "Games with sticks" category to put them in, I would CfD that (and I like baseball and billiards) for precisely the same reason as this one: It is redundant and unneeded and all the articles that could possibly fit in that category already have perfectly rational homes in the extant categorization system. The fact that someone after a lot of effort could create a well-sourced "games with sticks" article wouldn't obviate the pointlessness of the category, no matter what something like WP:CATGRS says. To the extent WP:CATGRS conflicts with WP:OVERCAT, I side with WP:OVERCAT, else we'll soon have a WP:CATxyz for every issue out there, and additional exceptions to every rule will sprout everywhere like weeds. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * McCandlish, if this category is deleted, it is but a small tidyup matter to delete the subcats in a further CfD; the difference with depopulation is that emptying a category removes evidence of what he category was being used for, whereas populating an existing category is a widely-encouraged form of editing.


 * Keep for me, too. I guess I'm dim but I don't even see why this is in doubt. Check out Category:Women by occupation. There are tons of occupation categories along gender lines. Why is this any different? Thanks, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They are of a different character; namely they aren't occupations in which women dominate, just as the male occupational categories are just the opposite. I'm sure there are a few exceptions that should be CfD'd as well, like Category:Female dancers, but the pattern is pretty clear. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 23:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if a particular gender or ethnicity or sexuality is in the majority in some intersectional category, the standard is still whether a head article can be written. Just to give one blindingly obvious reason why, the majority now is not necessarily the majority then. If research exists talking about that GRS aspect of that professsion, then a head article can be written and a category supported. --Lquilter (talk) 07:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks I get it now, but I'm still for keep. One of my favorite arguments is WP:COMMON, which I probably like because I'm so weak on all the other stuff I should know. But a female model -- especially the supermodel/superwaifs mentioned earlier -- is for me such a demonstrably different creature and kettle of fish. The whole industry is built on (kinds of) female beauty. They become movie stars and sex symbols and the icons for our times. And of course they face different perils. There's a whole movement now about overly thin models. Guys don't figure in any of that. I think there should be two different main articles, and categories. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 07:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I just read Supermodel and I see that there is a little section on male supermodels, within. Jeez, maybe it's just because I'm a hetrosexual guy but I just don't see it as the same thing at all. I haven't heard of any of these guys. I'll be interested to see what's done with this category, there's been some strong arguments made (and mine, I fully admit, is not one of them). Shawn in Montreal (talk) 07:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Your arguments were fine, I thought; I was replying to SMcCandlish. --Lquilter (talk) 16:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and one last thought. SMcCandlish brought up the porn star category earlier. I would suggest that whatever is decided here sets something of a precedent for Category:Female porn stars as the position of women in the straight porn industry does mirror fashion in some respects: a) the industry is built on the female star b) the male counterpart is vastly less important and c) women in the industry are subject to much stricter and tougher standards regarding body image, etc. Just a thought. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Songs about fame

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The result of the debate was speedy delete per user request  Kwsn   (Ni!)  17:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * songs about fame


 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Delete I created this category along with a few other song-related ones one day. The reason escapes me.  At the time I thought it was relevant, but I can't remember what sparked it now. JuJube (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete. JuJube, how about putting a db-author on it, eh? Save us all some time. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 14:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. JuJube (talk) 15:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Anti-Chinese sentiment in Japan

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The result of the debate was merge. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Suggest merging Category:Anti-Chinese sentiment in Japan to Category:Anti-Chinese sentiment
 * Nominator's rationale:
 * Strong merge; blatant overcat. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 15:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  23:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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Outer Limits

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The result of the debate was  rename, without prejudice to further consideration of whether merger would be best. BencherliteTalk 00:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC) rename - WP:TVNC--As3x (talk) 12:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Category:The Outer Limits episodes:1963-1965 to Category:The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) episodes
 * Category:The Outer Limits episodes:1995-2002 to Category:The Outer Limits (1995 TV series) episodes


 * Comment the current naming has enhanced clarity though... 132.205.99.122 (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename - per nom. While the two series currently occupy a single article The Outer Limits, were they to be split at some point in the future they would properly be named The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) and The Outer Limits (1995 TV series). The catgories should follow that naming convention even though the separate show articles don't yet exist. Otto4711 (talk) 22:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. I don't feel strongly about this, but perhaps the categories ought to be merged into Category:The Outer Limits episodes. After all, both the main article (The Outer Limits) and the list of episodes (List of The Outer Limits episodes) consider the two series in one place ... . Otherwise, rename per nom. – Black Falcon (Talk) 16:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds

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The result of the debate was already deleted as empty as somebody decided to pre-empt the decision. Impatient. Next time, please don't. BencherliteTalk 00:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Dove breeds to Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds
 * Nominator's rationale: The new category will be a better description of the article pages currently under the "Dove breeds" category. As discussed at Categories for discussion/Speedy  Sting_au   Talk  11:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It are two words for the same thing so redirect from pigeon to dove would do the trick. So a rename is not needed. Carsrac (talk) 00:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Doves are regarded as smaller varieties of Columba if you check that genus, most of them are regarded as "pigeons" in any case. I don't believe you understand what I am trying to do here? The vast majority (if not all) of the pages that carry the Category:Dove breeds tag are in fact referencing pigeon breeds (as opposed to say "Dove varieties"). Also the symantics of the whole thing give us our best idea of how to treat this subject. A "breed" is refering to a man made variety of livestock. Doves generally refer to species variety as found out in nature. Pigeon "breeds" are just that. Man made breeds and my proposal that the category be changed from Dove breeds to Pigeon breeds is I believe a legitimate proposal.  Sting_au   Talk  03:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not speediable, please relist. I know that I certainly don't follow what you're trying to do here:  neither name is in the least suggestive of domestication.  If that's the key distinction, please make it explicit.  e.g., , or something to that effect.  Alai (talk) 04:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair. I think is the most appropriate of your suggestions. I'd be happy to go with that one. I've capitalized the "D" though. Now before I relist it are there any objections to ?  Sting_au   Talk  05:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend relisting anyway, in the interests of least-surprising-result, since it doesn't fit any of the speediable criteria. (It's possible, for example, that there could be confusion of expectation/misunderstanding/disagreement as to what this is for in the first place...)  BTW, initial caps in categories are not significant, as with pages.  (Or if you prefer, everything is mapped to initial caps regardless.)  Alai (talk) 05:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'll go relist it. I guess I need to delete the old one because it generates that notice on the category page? Never mind, I'll figure it out. Thanks for your help.  Sting_au   Talk  05:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, what I meant was, relist as a non-speedy CFR. It doesn't fit any of the speedy criteria.  Alai (talk) 06:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Relist per Alai. Also, if I read this correctly, I think it is debatable, since what we call "pigeons" are in fact "rock doves" in other terminology; i.e. the assertion by first opponent that "all doves are really pigeons" is considered exactly opposite the facts by some; this is a debate that would need to be authoritatively settled. The fact that there is already any substantive debate at all means this is not a speedy. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 15:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

---
 * Support - more accurate name.HeartofaDog (talk) 12:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - others would say that what we call "pigeons" are in fact "rock doves" (i.e. "pigeons" are "doves", not vice versa). I'd like to hear from the ornithology WikiProject on this one.  The accuracy assertion appears to be quite indeterminate to me, and may well simply be a matter of taste, habit, field or dialect. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - looking at the articles in the cat, they refer to breeds of ornamental pigeon, and the principle article is List of pigeon breeds - so "accurate" in that sense. (As a UK English speaker it happens that I do also find it more accurate linguistically, but that wasn't the main point). I note by the way that the correct name for a "rock dove" has been agreed to be "Rock Pigeon" by both US and UK ornithologists. HeartofaDog (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Is the five days up yet? Can the be created now?  Sting_au   Talk  12:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom & the above. Johnbod (talk) 18:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just done it. Thanks to everyone for advice etc. Cheers,  Sting_au   Talk  23:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Media in Columbus, Ohio

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The result of the debate was no consensus. BencherliteTalk 00:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Media in Columbus, Ohio to Category:Columbus, Ohio media
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Oppose (i.e. Strongly support the second proposal) - the "X, Y media" format is visually confusing, while the "Media in X, Y" format is unambiguous even if very slightly more longwinded. Almost always sacrifice marginal brevity in favor of clarity, since this is an encyclopedia not an anti-verbosity experiment. :-)  Just to be clear, I agree strongly with Vegaswikian that one standard or the other should be applied, and I argue for the second of the two that were proposed - use "Media in..." (And no, I'm not going to get into whether "media" is too vague a term; that is a topic for another mass CfD entirely.) —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 14:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose prefer Media in Foo as less prone to ambiguity. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Prefer "media in Fooville, Foo" format. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support as nominated. "Media in Fooville, Foo" Easier to understand.  Sting_au   Talk  00:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose suggested rename. The "Media in X, Y" format, while slightly longer, is less ambiguous. – Black Falcon (Talk) 16:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Skyscrapers in Columbus
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The result of the debate was rename. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Skyscrapers in Columbus to Category:Skyscrapers in Columbus, Ohio
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Speedy rename as a simple typo. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 15:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  00:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Companies based in Columbus
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The result of the debate was rename. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Companies based in Columbus to Category:Companies based in Columbus, Ohio
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Speedy rename as a simple typo. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 15:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  00:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:California Freeway and Expressway System
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 * The result of the discussion was:

Delete - all items merged into other appropriate categories. SkierRMH (talk) 23:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * california freeway and expressway system


 * Nominator's rationale:


 * What is your recommended action? Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 14:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Response: It's obviously a delete, like everything else there that is not flagged specifically as a rename or merge. Why would we do anything else with something (allegedly) made obsolete by a replacement category?  —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 15:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops; I'm used to the prefilled template giving the recommended action in bold. It says California Freeway and Expressway System . --NE2 18:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom - 3 systems for the same classification being a bit much --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


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Category:Descent: FreeSpace
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The result of the debate was rename. BencherliteTalk
 * Propose renaming Category:Descent: FreeSpace to Category:FreeSpace series
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Rename as per nom.  Sting_au   Talk  21:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Mimar Sinan
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The result of the debate was delete, having now moved two buildings to Category:Mimar Sinan buildings. BencherliteTalk 00:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * mimar sinan


 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Delete per nom Johnbod (talk) 12:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge to category immediately below, whatever name it ends up with. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 15:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Sinan buildings
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The result of the debate was rename. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sinan buildings to Category:Mimar Sinan buildings
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Rename per nom. Johnbod (talk) 12:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. See also below. Very same issue. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 15:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Kings of Nigeria
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The result of the debate was rename as nominated. Perhaps not a perfect solution but better than using "Kings", as Picaroon explained. Sub-categorising 14 articles by "type of royalty" did not attract much support. BencherliteTalk 00:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Kings of Nigeria to Category:Nigerian royalty
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Rename per nom. It is a daughter category of Category:African royalty. Other similar ones could probably be changed as well, e.g., Category:Kings of Chad. Snocrates 01:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Johnbod (talk) 12:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom.--WaltCip (talk) 12:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename consistently (i.e., including related categories not specifically named here) per nom's rationale about the naming problem to begin with, and Snocrates's point about the de facto convetion already established. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 15:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom for consistency. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - didn't we just go through this with the categories for kings, queens, emperors and empresses? All the same arguments for keeping those separate from a melded "royalty" category apply here, and renaming takes the category out of Category:Kings. The notion that they aren't "kings of Nigeria" doesn't really wash either. If they aren't kings of "Nigeria" then they aren't "Nigerian" royalty either. Otto4711 (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Otto makes a good point here. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we just sorted this out merely because we're dealing with a different issue here. I'm not 100% certain that there are Nigerian queens, but it seems quite likely, especially considering that my wife has had several Nigerian princesses in her college classes (I kid you not). Cgingold (talk) 01:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that Nigerian queens exist in abundant numbers, but none seem to be categorised as such yet. Kings or Paramount chiefs are I think the usual terms, but they would be "Kings in Nigeria" to avoid confusion I think. Many of these are historical figures who ruled large areas by any standard (in fact all seem historical, most from very long ago).  Oddly the Emirs from the north, like Ado Bayero, aren't in this category.  Anyway I think "royalty" is the best way to go. Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally, kings, queens, princes, and princesses are found in the south and center of the country. The Sultan of Sokoto and the emirs are in the north. It would be wrong to term the Hausa-Fulani (northern) royals as kings, quite simply because they're not kings; they are, however, royalty. So, if this renaming nomination proceeds, I'll categorize them as Nigerian royalty too. But "Kings of Nigeria" on Bayero's page would make no sense. Picaroon (t) 03:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Rename but not per nom. It seems to me that we need to come up with a name that reflects the fact that these individuals are a sort of local or regional "king", which may perhaps be on a par with what are elsewhere referred to as "chiefs" or "chieftains". I honestly don't know what the proper terminology is, so I posted notice of this CFD (with ) at the talk page of its creator and at the talk page for WikiProject Nigeria -- where I then discovered that Picaroon, who started this CFD, is an active member. So perhaps he/she can supply the answer! Cgingold (talk) 01:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, "king" is used by some individuals who would be called chiefs elsewhere. Again, they're all "Nigerian royalty", but aren't all "Kings of Nigeria". Picaroon (t) 03:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename but not per nom. This is not 'royalty' in the sense of the super-cat, but it would be incorrect to degrade all Nigerian kings to 'chiefs'. In many sense, the kingdoms of Nigeria did have clear similarities to kingdoms in other parts of the world at the time. My suggestion would be to utilize the local words, which might to translate directly to English, like Category:Igwes. --Soman (talk) 13:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This seems a bad idea to me - no doubt each group has a different word for "king" and it is not what we do in Europe etc. Look at the oddly mixed and stranded Category:Emirs. "rulers" or "monarchs" are available if we get desperate. Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That would create a huge amount of categories, all with only a few entries. Categories for Igwes, Obas, Alakes, Obis, Olus, the list goes on. Not particularly feasible. Picaroon (t) 17:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My point is exactly to differentiate between different types of titles. The emirs of the north are not directly the same as kings in the south. However, one could try to find broader concepts that would group together some of the smaller categories. --Soman (talk) 17:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Kings in Nigeria. If there are any ruling tribal queens, they can conveniently be included in the category despite the use of a male gender term.  King of Nigeria implies ruling the whole of Nigeria, which none have (unless as elected president, etc.).  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is this better than "Nigerian royalty"? We say Category:Nigerian doctors, not Category:Doctors in Nigeria, do we not? Picaroon (t) 17:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To my mind the potential for joining the Sultans & Emirs in the north into a "Nigerian royalty" cat is another strong argument for it. Johnbod (talk) 17:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggestion - perhaps instead of renaming this category, Category:Nigerian royalty should just be created and the various regional chiefs or kings or whatever word applies should be subcatted within it? Otto4711 (talk) 20:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's probably a good idea for those with a "few" entries, but still leaves the issue that no one has ever been "King of Nigeria" - so we should do both I think. Johnbod (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Kings in Nigeria, and create Category:Nigerian royalty as a parent category, and (if necessary) move appropriate people to the parent category, per Otto4711 and Peterkingiron. Bluap (talk) 15:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Question: After reading through this entire discussion, it's quite apparent that it is inherently problematic to apply Western/European semantic categories in other parts of the world which may or may not have exact equivalents. It occurs to me that I don't even know for sure whether the English language term "King" has any real currency in Nigerian culture/society. Given that English is widely spoken in Nigeria, I would guess that it has been adopted as the closest equivalent for at least some of the royalty we're talking about -- but possibly not for all of them. Could Picaroon or somebody else with detailed knowledge of this please address this question? Cgingold (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, it is very problematic to use "king" this way, because "king" in the Nigerian sense basically means "southern, male royal". Take the Alake of Egbaland (who should have an article). In conversation with non-Yoruba who might not know who that is, you might say "the Alake (king) of Egbaland". However, this doesn't mean he is a king by European standards, it is just a way of approximating the meaning of "Alake" to non-Yoruba - "king" is more accurate than "prince", or "duke", but I nevertheless don't think it is considered an exact synonym of "Alake". So, I reiterate to do away with the use of "king" regarding Nigerians, and rename this "Nigerian royalty" - "king" is just too vague and inaccurate, and will rarely be exact synonym of the African-language titles it is replacing. Picaroon (t) 20:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Open source games
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The result of the debate was No consensus to rename -Though there seems to be a few concerns about the name as it is. Feel free to re-nominate categories to determine between "open-source" or "open source", and between "games" or "video games" (or "software-based games), etc. - jc37 11:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Open source games to Category:Open source games software
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Comment: I'm skeptical about this, but at very least the rename should be grammatical: Category:Open-source game software (hyphenate compound adjectives, don't use plurals whether they do not belong).
 * Oppose - These are games but here their primary denominator is that they are open source; not that they are made of software. (One could in fact imagine "open source" game development done for card games or other games involving complex algorithms or community development to set up the game.) Even given the quasi-philosophical arguments which Rwwww raises (that a "game" is not different from the software which instantiates it), the current category name is clear, descriptive, and immediately intuitive. The proposed rename would be unnecessarily elaborate and would, in fact, create confusion between software platforms and the games themselves, as well as confine "open source" to software which, while by far the commonest application, is not the only conceivable one.--Lquilter (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - But most games software-based games don't have "software" in their category name, do they? --Lquilter (talk) 22:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC) (edited for clarity)
 * The main article's, Open source games, first line is Open source games (short open games) are video games which are open-source software so, yes, these games definitely have software. Alternatives to the proposed name would include 1. putting software in s, e.g. (software) 2. renaming the main article (does Wikipedia have a guideline about plural names?). Nominator prefers the main article name to be unchanged in the category name, but is happy with any rename that includes "software". tooold (talk) 23:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry I wasn't clear -- I meant, have software in the name (obviously they are made of software). See Otto4711's point below. --Lquilter (talk) 02:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Still not clear - almost no software products have software in their title. QuickBooks, example below, is typical of software names. Or look at Category:Business software for many more examples. The listings there with "software" in their title are about software, not specific software products. tooold (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you are persistently misunderstanding me, and that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding the way this category reasonably could and should work. I have changed my recommendation summary to oppose because this category gathers together games based on the way they are developed (open source); not the format in which they are written (software) and not software platforms. See Category:Video games which includes computer games and which are all software-based. --Lquilter (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose - the category name matches the lead article. The category is not capturing software that's used to create open source games. It's capturing games. The proposed rename makes no sense. Otto4711 (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I've stepped into a private game that I'll never understand. Consider:
 * QuickBooks. Categorized as Category:Accounting software, is Intuit's software captured?
 * Hellcarrier. Categorized as Category:Open source games, the article states "The game is open source, as the source code can be downloaded from their site, listed below."

What does it mean when a category name includes "software"? Why is QuickBooks software and Hellcarrier not? Is an instantiation of an accounting system substantively different from an instantiation of a game? And suppose the source code for Hellcarrier was not accessible - would that change any of these answers??? tooold (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose - "Open source game software" would imply open source software to creates games. The articles in the main cat are games. Should the requirement arise, then make a subcat for the software I have mentioned above. Ğavin  Ťing  19:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose &mdash; Adding "software" to this title would be redundant with "open source", and would imply "software for developing open-source games", as stated above. &mdash; Val42 (talk) 05:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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Paintings by artist
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The result of the debate was No consensus - Concerns about nicknames, concerns whether the convention should be reversed (paintings by artist, instead of artist paintings). Please feel free to relist as less of a group nomination (which should help resolve the nickname concerns/questions). This isn't the first time the Works by creator conventions have been questioned. Please feel free to nominate the whole Category:Paintings by artist category (or even the whole Category:Works by artist system) for a reversal of convention. - jc37 04:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming a number of categories in Category:Paintings by artist to include the full name of the painter.
 * Nominator's rationale:


 * Comment I don't feel very enthusiastic about this, as far as the older artists go, because several of these names, like Botticelli and Perugino, are actually nicknames, not the artists real name, and only used like this by convention. Category:Botticelli paintings‎ sounds more natural and grammatical to me than Category:Sandro Botticelli paintings‎. Also few of these have defaultsorts currently, as they don't need them - these would have to be added to avoid chaos.  Johnbod (talk) 01:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is true that they are nicknames, not real names. But the combination of first name and nickname appears to be most established, hence the use of the two in the article names. I feel that the title of the category should correspond to the title of the article; if the title is wrong, it should be moved. But if it is correct, the title of the category should be changed to correspond to the article. Defaultsort would indeed have to be added (good catch), but that can be done in a matter of minutes. A  ecis Brievenbus 01:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support, at least for all where it's a known first name and last name (Vermeer, Durer, Rubens, and Chagall at the very least). If there are others where the name is shakier, the article should probably be renamed.--Mike Selinker (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's rather counter to your "plays by" !vote just now, isn't it Mike? Johnbod (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The two have nothing to do with each other. The plays nomination is about order; for consistency's sake, I think they should be made to look like novels, which put the work in front of the creator. I'm not taking a stand on visual arts order, which affects buildings, sculptures, and many other category types; similarly, I'm not suggesting that the music categories be flipped around. This nomination is about content; for consistency's sake, I think they should be made to look like any creative work category, which all use full names. But just in case you're hypothesizing about my comments even further, I think Category:Shakespearean plays should become Category:Plays by William Shakespeare.--Mike Selinker (talk) 13:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Opppose I would only think this was justified if there were two or more artists of the same name - otherwise it seems superfluous.HeartofaDog (talk) 12:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I might have agreed with you if Wikipedia had been consistent in that. Either we only use the surnames unless there are more artists with the same name, or we always use the full name unless a person was and is known by a single name. All the other subcategories of Category:Works by artist use the full name of the artist, unless the artist was known by a single name, using the title of the corresponding article as the guideline. Category:Paintings by artist should be consistent with these sister categories. A  ecis Brievenbus 12:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes to all your points, except that I still think the other option is the better one. The argument from relative quantities of work is not good - if after a thorough discussion it appeared that all the other cats should be changed instead, then that is exactly what should happen. But probably in real terms the pressure from the example of the other cats will be too great. HeartofaDog (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename per Aecis, who said it perfectly. I recognize HeartofaDog's issue, but that objection does not stand here, since it would also object to the standard currently impemented for all other such categories. I.e., I sympathize with the view that where disambiguation is not needed it should not be used, but that would be a much, much, MUCH larger CfD than this one, affecing a both wide and quite deep range of categories, and in the opposite direction to what was proposed here.  It is better to be consistent with what we've decided to implement, and decide separately and later whether to change what we have decided to implement, than to defy what we have decided to implement in hopes of changing it; per WP:POINT. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 15:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: See above. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 15:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I see two issues concerning this proposal: convention in the art world indicates that the full name is used for a fully authenticated painting, but initials or surname for doubtful works - this points to the use of full names. On the other hand, the artists should appear on the category page alphabetically by surname (except where the usual appelation is a Christian name (e.g. Michelangelo and Raphael).  Would that happen?  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It would if the sorting codes are done correctly - not in itself a huge problem. I think the convention you mention is rather old-fashioned now - museums and auction houses have nearly all abandoned it for more precise terms ("attributed to...", "follower of..." etc), and we don't use the covention in WP.  Johnbod (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Channelling
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The result of the debate was No action - Please feel free to renominate based on the discussion below. - jc37 11:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category:Channelling to Category:Spiritual mediums
 * Nominator's rationale:
 * Comment: A potential problem is the nomenclature: "Spiritual mediums" means "particular people who channel spirts" (allegedly &lt;cough&gt;) while "Channelling" (which I think should be "Channeling" anyway, though I'm not 100% sure this double-L thing isn't some US/UK dialect issue) means "the act of spiritually mediumizing". I Strongly agree that a merge is virtually demanded, but it may need to involve a rename on the side, e.g. both extant categories merge into a new "Spirtual channel&#91;l&#93;ing" so that all articles in both categories will fit. It's completely absurd for two categories for this to exist, regardless (and regardless what I think of the subject matter; this is a redundancy issue, pure and simple). —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 14:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Thanks, that's what I had thought, too. A merge and rename may be what's needed, along the lines of what you have suggested.Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Looney Tunes Golden Collection
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The result of the debate was Delete (I'm presuming that the membership is only Looney Tunes Golden Collection and the 5 volume pages.) - Much of the discussion below referred more to the AfD, or to concerns about the nominator (who appears civil for the most part, but whose recent talk page comments at times seem to be a bit too close to biting other editors). Note that I closed AFD for the individual volume articles (with a result of "keep"). As for the category, this is utterly duplicative of the main article (and the navbox Template:Looney Tunes Golden Collection - the need of which seems questionable, at best). - jc37 11:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * looney tunes golden collection


 * Nominator's rationale:
 * Keep. The Category is only empty because User:Collectonian merged all the articles.  In the merge, most of the information was lost.  Where does one go for the list of cartoons in each volume now?  That information is gone.  There's 60 cartoons per volume so it makes sense to have a separate page per volume, rather than have an enormous article with 300 cartoons (and growing every year).  Plus, there was no discussion before the extremely lossy merge.  I vote to revert all the changes that User:Collectonian made today.  We should be voting before he makes giant unilateral edits like that, not afterwards. DavidRF (talk) 00:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Per previous AfDs, there is absolutely no reason for a DVD release to have individual volumes, nor is it necessary to list every cartoon short that is included on every volume. The main Looney Tunes Golden Collection is not that big at all, and there is no reason not to have the DVD release information in the article. Work is being done now to incorporate the pertinent information from each volume to the neglected main article. Collectonian (talk) 00:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree. I don't understand why you get to delete large quantities of information and then call for a vote?  Why does it not work the other way around?  Who made you the editor in charge here?!?   Previous AfD's?!?  Which ones?  These are not Power Rangers DVD sets.  These are Warner Brothers cartoons and deserve to have the cartoon shorts listed.  Again I ask?  What was wrong with the way it was before and who are you to unilterally make these decisions? DavidRF (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am going to undo your changes. You should call for a vote before you make big changes.  Not after. DavidRF (talk) 02:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep - pending the outcome of the now-initated AFD for the individual volume articles. If they are kept then this seems like a reasonable enough category for them. There is a difference between "being bold" and running roughshod over others and deleting information. Otto4711 (talk) 03:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if the AfDs say to keep the individual articles, I still think this category is unnecessary. There is also already a template for this as well (though is it also up for TfD), and the main article links to the five subarticles.  I can understand a single Looney Tunes category, but one for just six articles seems like excessive categorization to me.  Why not have them in the main Category:Looney Tunes where the rest of the Looney Toon DVD articles are filed, or make a sub category of Category:Looney Tunes/DVD Releases to put all of them in, which would be consistent with the songs, shorts, etc, categories? Collectonian (talk) 04:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per Collectonian; the precise final shape and number of the article(s) with the relevant content in them are simply not germane here. Even if the article count went back to where it was, there is little to no justification for a category for it/them.  Just because there have (hypothetically) been two serial killers in the Kindom of Tonga does not automatically mean that we need a Category:Tongan serial killers. If the category has little to no potential for growth and/or would be an exceptionist anomaly, don't go there. More to the point, we don't have categories for things by release format.  There are no Category:Beatles LPs, Category:Beatles eight-tracks, Category:Beatles cassettes, etc. for a reason. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 14:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But we do have quite a few Category:Music videos and DVDs subcats by artist and presumably if there were multiple notable Beatles DVDs then they'd end up in a category. If the individual articles are kept then it makes sense to categorize them rather than having six articles cluttering up the main category. If they're deleted or merged then fine, delete the category. But since the status of the articles is unsettled then there's no rush to delete the category. CFD will still be here in five days when the AFD has closed. Otto4711 (talk) 16:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep Because they fit the article and I also want Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers DVD releases back as a article because my photos were took off because of that deletion and Collectonian won't let me put my photos back on the main article and she was very rude to me. If this article is deleted then many photos will be deleted as well and I don't want that. Thank You.--Stco23 (talk) 12:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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