Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 18



Category:Robot-aided rehabilitation

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Kbdank71 13:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * robot-aided rehabilitation


 * Nominator's rationale: This category was recently created, is used inappropriately, and is not needed. According to its contents, the category's articles appear to be "rehabilitation and therapies that utilize robots," although I am not sure these articles are even properly categorized.  There is only one article relating to robot-aided rehabilitation, Rehabilitation robotics, which is not even included in this category.  If the topic is expanded to additional articles, perhaps this could be re-created...but it is not needed now.  Scott Alter 21:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Peritonitis

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Kbdank71 13:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * peritonitis


 * Nominator's rationale: This category has only one article and one category, with no chance for expansion. Most other -itis articles do not have, nor should they have their own categories (see Category:Inflammations).  Scott Alter 20:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Support delete - This is a case of overcategorisation. The various causes of peritonitis are already categorised to appropriate disease categories. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete -- We do not need one-article categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 00:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom & Peterkingiron. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Total War modifications

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Kbdank71 13:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * total war modifications


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. The category contains only two articles, other articles are unlikely to be added because there are no other modifications of the Total war series that are notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. QueenCake (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete can be or should be linked, no need for a cat. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Orthopedics

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Kbdank71 13:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category:Orthopedics to Category:Orthopedic surgery
 * Nominator's rationale: Both refer to the same medical field. Orthopedic surgery is a more descriptive name, and matches the main article at orthopedic surgery. Scott Alter 20:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Support rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 04:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Support merge - in the hospitals I've worked in the specialty is always referred to formally as 'Orthopaedic Surgery'. 'Orthopaedics' is an abbreviation of the department title, as in 'the Orthopaedics Department' or the 'Orthopaedics Secretary'. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 04:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Number-one singles in Canada

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split per nom. Kbdank71 13:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Number-one singles in Canada to Category:RPM Top Singles number-one singles, Category:Canadian Singles Chart number-one singles and Category:Canadian Hot 100 number-one singles
 * Nominator's rationale: For the sake of naming consistency, I think that this category should be split (why the heck isn't "split" an option on the Twinkle form?!) to match whichever chart the song in question reached Number One on. Canada has had three major singles charts in its history, and someone just seeing "Number-one singles in Canada" may not know right away if it was a Number One on RPM, Canadian Singles Chart, or the Canadian Hot 100. I would suggest splitting the category into Category:RPM Top Singles number-one singles (as that's what RPM's "main" chart was called), Category:Canadian Singles Chart number-one singles and Category:Canadian Hot 100 number-one singles to make it clearer which chart each single topped. This naming seems to be more consistent with the precedent of "(name of chart) number-one singles" that most other categories of this sort use. Note, also, that the Canadian country music singles are already categorized as Category:RPM Country Tracks number-one singles and Category:Canadian Country Singles number-one singles according to which chart they topped. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 18:18, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom.--Vintagekits (talk) 18:56, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course, this will need a couple extra eyes to help me make sure that each song is properly categorized by chart. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 23:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Split per nom, with the additional proviso that The Record charts would also merit a dedicated category if somebody ever gets around to documenting those. Bearcat (talk) 05:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs with lyrics by Johnny Mercer

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename/merge all three into Category:Songs written by Johnny Mercer.  If wider consensus is to split all of the "written by" categories out into "lyrics by" and "music by", this can be reversed.  That, however, is a very large undertaking and will require more input than this. Kbdank71 13:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Songs with lyrics by Johnny Mercer to Category:Songs written by Johnny Mercer
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. Also nominated to be changed to Songs written by Johnny Mercer category:Songs by Johnny Mercer and Category:Songs with music by Johnny Mercer. Johnny Mercer, extremely notable and fine lyricist that he was, also wrote music and has at least 3 songs listed at WP where he composed the music. When he also wrote the lyrics such songs would sit in both the music and lyric categories. However, I think think this might be case of overcategorization. FWIW, with the information that Mercer also wrote music I would find it strange if he did not provide some of the music in the songs "lyrics by..." and his co-writer some of the words. The definition of composer and lyricist still exists today in standard music contracts and defines "composed by" and "lyrics by" but in all partnerships there's always a little give and take and for practical reasons probably would have signed accordingly. Please note, I consider this a very contentious nomination, there are a few more other songwriters this applies to. It should also be noted that Category:Songs by composer was recreated a month after it was deleted last time. I shall be notifying interested parties about this nomination. Richhoncho (talk) 17:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename and merge per nom. Since Mercer is both a lyricist and composer, Category:Songs written by Johnny Mercer makes the most sense. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 18:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment – my view is that there should be 3 categories in this case, Category:Songs with lyrics by Johnny Mercer (containing the likes of Hooray for Hollywood, Tangerine), Category:Songs with music by Johnny Mercer (if there were any songs with music by JM and lyrics by someone else, possibly not the case according to the long list in his article), and Category:Songs written by Johnny Mercer (ie for which he wrote both the lyrics and the music, containing such as Dream) which will be a subcat of both the others. (Let us hope he did not also record songs.) Occuli (talk) 18:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not adverse to this suggestion, save that "Songs written by" should be the parent directory as whatever part he wrote he is still a writer of songs. Just to show you some more categories where this happens, there's also Category:Songs written by Frank Loesser and Category:Songs with lyrics by Frank Loesser; Category:Songs with lyrics by Hy Zaret and Category:Songs written by Hy Zaret; Category:Songs by Walter Donaldson and Category:Songs with music by Walter Donaldson; Elton John wrote at least one set of lyrics according to WP (not categorised as such) but his compositions so far are listed under Category:Songs with music by Elton John. It's a minefield, because in many cases,we don't know who wrote what. Thanks for comments.--Richhoncho (talk) 21:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, if 'Songs written by xxx' means 'some part written by XXX (and perhaps others)'. It is indeed a difficult area. Still, if the article says 'Lyrics by A', 'Music by B', it seems logical to put the song into 'songs with lyrics by A', and into 'songs with music by B'. Occuli (talk) 13:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The downside of this (particularly regarding people from JM's era) is that people who wrote both words and music we find 2 categories, Lyrics by XYZ and Music by XYZ and exactly the same songs in both categories. Something I'd like to avoid. Or we might have half a dozen articles that say who wrote what, but the last article is silent, do we guess the right answer or create a new category? --Richhoncho (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Put on Hold This is a far larger issue than Johnny Mercer. There are many songwriters who wrote only the music or lyrics for some or all of their songs. While I have no issue with putting all songs in which a songwriter participated, writing the song on his own or with a partner, or whatever part was contributed, there are excellent reasons to split "Songs written by Foo", "Songs with lyrics by Foo" and "Songs with music by Foo" into separate categories. This is not an issue specific to Johnny Mercer and should be addressed globally, perhaps with the assistance of folks more familiar with the musical nuances involved here. Alansohn (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment how much of the lyrics must Johnny Mercer contribute? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't really want to go down that route. The amount of contribution in any partnership is debateable (see delete discussion for Category:Songs written by Norman Petty), and any veriable sources that says who wrote this or that is good enough for me. My query on this was does a single person need 3 categories (especially as there's only one entry for one cat, 2 for the other and a worthwhile cat for the lyricist cat. I'd be happy and consider Mercer "a songwriter" for cat purposes, or "lyricist" and "composer" but then we have 2 songs which should appear in both cats! For somebody of JM's stature I don't mind that, but there are a few single song cats which are duplicated because one person did both lyrics and music, and that really is overcategorisation. This nomination was always a "test the waters" and see what people have to say. Thanks for your comments.--Richhoncho (talk) 08:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs by Irving Gordon

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Kbdank71 13:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Songs by Irving Gordon to Category:Songs written by Irving Gordon
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To bring into line with other categories within the section. Also nominated :-
 * Category:Songs by Ralph Blane to Category:Songs written by Ralph Blane
 * Category:Songs by Melvin Endsley to Category:Songs written by Melvin Endsley
 * Richhoncho (talk) 17:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename per naming conventions. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 18:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to the clearer wording. Occuli (talk) 17:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename for consistency, precedent. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs with lyrics by Larry Conley

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Kbdank71 13:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * songs with lyrics by larry conley


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Another bunch of single entry categories with no relevant article. Also nominated
 * Category:Songs written by Dominic John
 * Category:Songs written by Marjorie Goetschius
 * Category:Songs written by Eddie Seiler
 * Category:Songs written by Carole Joyner
 * Category:Songs with lyrics by Heinz Bolten-Backers
 * Category:Songs with lyrics by Earl Brent
 * Category:Songs with music by William Best
 * Category:Songs with lyrics by Giorgio Calabrese
 * If anybody can either create the relevant article, or add songs to the category I would be more than pleased to remove the nomination. Richhoncho (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * G8 all as categories without parent article, so tagged. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 18:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Although I said I would G8 next time, on checking I didn't think it covered categories and, if, as happened last time, an article is created I would want to withdraw the nomination, so a little time and debate is preferable. --Richhoncho (talk) 20:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per the nom's rationale. But it isn't G8 ... it doesn't follow that someone with no article is not notable. Eg there is Giorgio Calabrese (in Italian; the song is Piano, 1960). And Heinz Bolten-Baeckers.) Occuli (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They're still categories without a parent article, which falls under G8. Categories can always be re-created after there's an article on the person in question, but let's not put the cart before the horse. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 23:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to my reading G8 applies to articles, not categories, the grounds for a speedy category is in Categories for discussion/Speedy. Not that it matters, if I was that concerned I would have removed the speedies. --Richhoncho (talk) 23:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * G8 applies to redirects, talk pages, and such, so by extension wouldn't it apply to other non-articles? Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 01:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy criteria are very specific and very carefully drafted, so it would not be appropriate to assume that something would apply "by extension". But you could, of course, propose adding this to the existing criteria, and see what other editors think of the idea. Cgingold (talk) 23:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed all the G8 requests because I don't see any Wikipedia policy that requires a category to have a similarly-named article in the encyclopedia. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 09:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete as overcategorization. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 09:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete OCAT for one-(not quite a )hit-wonders. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Northern Irish sportspeople

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Kbdank71 13:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Northern Irish sportspeople to Category:Sportspeople from Northern Ireland
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. Per precendent set in January. See multiple discussions here and here. Vintagekits (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC) Sub categories also nominated :-


 * Category:Northern Irish snooker players to Snooker players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish Formula One drivers to Formula One drivers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish rally drivers to Rally drivers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish racecar drivers to Racecar drivers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish pool players to Pool players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish motorcycle racers to Motorcycle racers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish professional wrestlers to Professional wrestlers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish wrestlers to Wrestlers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish martial artists to Martial artists from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish jockeys to Jockeys from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish ice hockey players to Ice hockey players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish hurlers to Hurlers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish golfers to Golfers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish Gaelic footballers to Gaelic footballers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish football managers to Football managers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish association footballers to Association footballers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish field hockey players to Field hockey players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish darts players to Darts players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish cricketers to Cricketers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish sportspeople stubs to Sportspeople from Northern Ireland stubs
 * Category:Northern Irish boxers to Boxers from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish bowls players to Bowls players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish players of English billiards to Players of English billiards from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish basketball players to Basketball players from Northern Ireland
 * Category:Northern Irish athletes to Athletes from Northern Ireland


 * Rename all per nom. Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename all per nom and standards. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LGBT-related television episodes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. Kbdank71 13:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * lgbt-related television episodes


 * Nominator's rationale: No comment. It has been suggested that this category has inclusion standards that are too subjective to allow for its existence. I created the category and previously defended it at CFD. Since the category has been repeatedly offered as an example when trying to keep other categories, I am bringing it back to CFD to see if consensus about it has changed. Discussed and kept once previously. I am neutral. Otto4711 (talk) 14:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep as you know one when you see one, & certainly of encyclopedic interest. On the wild frontier of subjective criteria though. Johnbod (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep – it is indeed an example par excellence when trying to keep other valuable categories with or without subjective and/or convoluted inclusion criteria. Occuli (talk) 19:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep! – as I did at the previous CfD, I voted to Keep then and will do so again now not only because this meets all of my standards for retention, but for the staggering number of precedents that it sets, all the more so because of the clear consensus it set previously, and the nature of the category and comments used to support its retention. 1) Categories can be almost completely subjective - There is no definition whatsoever of what "LGBT-related" means, nor is there any way to determine if any episodes "substantially cover such issues". As stated in the Keep vote from the earlier CfD by User:Ctjf83, all that is necessary is to "put in inclusion criteria on the template page", regardless of inherent subjectivity. 2) Slippery Slope is not an issue - There is no discernible means to determine which episodes are in and which are out (pun originally was unintended). Thus the dreaded slippery slope argument, "but what will prevent someone from adding a possible borderline case" has no validity. There is no standard here whatsoever -- amount of LGBT-related content, number of words spoken by LGBT-related characters, use of LGBT-related keywords, etc. -- objective or subjective, that could possibly tell us which should be included and which should not. 3) Acceptance that WP:CLN encourages coexistence of lists AND categories - Categories should co-exist with lists as a default and one should not be deleted simply because the other exists and deletion of one wil result in "no net loss of data". As noted previously by the nominator of the current CfD, "The category can be linked as easily as the list can be, so that's no argument in favor of deletion. No one appears to be suggesting that the category is superior to the list, rather, per WP:CLN they complement each other. There are several hundred episodes on that list, most of which would not be notable enough for individual articles." 4) No need for articles to have any common uniting feature - again, as stated at the original CfD "the first guideline for category usage is that the category groups similar articles together". The oft-repeated argument that there must be some inherent connection between each of the articles in a category is eliminated. 5) Sources are not needed to support a category, but existence of sources confirms retention of a category - existence of general media coverage is all that is necessary to show that a category should be retained. 6) Three-part test for category retention - As discussed at the previous CfD should be used in all cases, keeping all categories that meet the three criteria A) is it possible to write a few paragraphs or more on the topic of the category? B) is it obvious why any given article would be in the category? C) does the category fit into the overall categorization system? Rather than arbitrary personal preferences, we can finally implement a set of guidelines that will end most of the drama here at CfD. I again suggest that these guidelines should be recorded at WP:CAT so that we can short circuit so many of the pushes for deletion of categories that almost always ignore or directly contradict these guidelines. Alansohn (talk) 01:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per previous Cfd. - ℅ ✰ ALLST☆R ✰ echo 05:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep good way to keep together LGBT related episodes, from shows that don't usually revolve around LGBT themes.  C T J F 8 3 Talk 06:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per excellent rationale by Alansohn and keep rationales from the previous CfD. The category inclusion criteria are clearly articulated. And cats are intrinsically different from lists; both can and should co-exist, as they serve different functions. — Becksguy (talk) 04:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Alansohn. -- >David  Shankbone  14:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. If the category's inclusion standards are too subjective, then tighten them. Nothing wrong with the category per se. Born Gay (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Snow keep I heart Otto4711 and their work setting up the category speaks for itself. -- Banj e  b oi   07:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete; criteria seem too subjective for categorization. The list would be a preferable method for grouping these episodes. However, the thought of an editor hawking this solitary result ad infinitum as a "unanimous" so-called endorsement of some questionable principles of "precedent" is more troubling than the prospect of actually having to keep the category around. Hence I dissent, while acknowledging that sometimes if enough editors simply prefer to have a category around, it will exist, regardless of what other editors or the guidelines say. In Wikipedia, for any specific case the people ultimately rule, not the more generalised rules and guidelines. Therefore, I can accept that the category will be kept (and should be kept because of the consensus), while still maintaining the opinion that a strict application of the generalised guidelines would suggest that it should not be. Good Ol’factory (talk) 11:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So just to be clear here, you don't actually think this template should be deleted but want to poison the well for those other sneaky categories saying "me too"? -- Banj e  b oi   11:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I think the category should be deleted. That's why I said "delete". Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm reminded of the Seinfeld episode "The Wig Master" where Jerry wants to return an item to a store and when asked why says "for spite", to which the clerk responds "Well, if there was some problem with the garment. If it were unsatisfactory in some way, then we could do it for you, but I'm afraid spite doesn't fit into any of our conditions for a refund." this article provides a legal case involving Tom Clancy in which the Seinfeld case is quoted, pointing out the legal obligation to act in good faith, one that any legal scholar would be aware of. If I sum up your principles, they appear to read that if I like a catgeory keep it, if I don't delete; consistency is not even an afterthought. Your actions, which appear here to be in staggeringly bad faith, only further undermines the little credibility of a process that is so utterly broken. Alansohn (talk) 11:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I think you missed my point. My point was that I believe the category should be deleted, because it is a category with subjective inclusionary criteria. Subjective inclusionary criteria ≠ spite. At the same time, I'm realistic that consensus does not always accurately reflect the guidelines. I'm glad you can dream up pretended parallels with American TV shows, but I suggest you allow other users to characterize their own reasons. If you're sensing an edge to my comment, maybe it's just a reflection of how I have felt about some of your approaches in the past and the dread with which I anticipate more of the same in the future. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "I think you missed my point"? No, I heard your WP:POINT loud and clear. To quote your justification, "However, the thought of an editor hawking this solitary result ad infinitum as a 'unanimous' so-called endorsement of some questionable principles of 'precedent' is more troubling than the prospect of actually having to keep the category around. Hence I dissent". Even including spite as a secondary reason seems rather WP:POINTy bad faith to me. These words are a direct quote. If you can defend them, go right ahead. Alansohn (talk) 01:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, maybe it's just a reflection of how I have felt about some of your approaches in the past and the dread with which I anticipate more of the same in the future. (Sometimes I'm not sure how much of a comment you read, because you tend to focus in on selected bits (which incidentally is not unlike the frustration some other editors have repeatedly expressed regarding your selective quotation of WP:CLN); hence the repetition here, which I though would have already answered the inquiry you made directly above had it been read and considered.) When I wrote my comment I had just re-read a very lengthy inquiry from you on my talk page complaining about CfD in general, some actions of mine, and asking for some sort of unclear tit-for-tat action, and I was tired, in more ways than one. Call it Alansohn fatigue. But quite simply, I find what you claim this discussion stands for preposterous and over-reaching. At least now we won't have to hear about how those principles were supported "unanimously". However, if you want to continue to think you know better what my overall point was, that's up to you. I know what it was, and I think I'll be able to forgive myself for my transgressions. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Being "LGBT-related" is a non-defining characteristic. I can think of no rationale that would support keeping this over any other "xyz-related television episodes" categories, which I don't think is a categorization system we should maintain. Replace xyz with pet ownership, watermelons, public transportation, cell phones, or any other possible topic you can muster up, and I don't see how it would be any different from this. We don't have an article on LGBT in television, for instance, explaining why this would be a phenomenon notable enough to be a defining characteristic of a television episode. If such an article existed then perhaps I could see this category being different from my aforementioned examples, but until then there's no grounds to view this characteristic of a TV episode to be notable enough to categorize. Keeping this IMO sets a precedent to categorize all television episodes by their central theme, whatever that theme may be. VegaDark (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We have a ton of articles about LGBT representation in various aspects of media, including List of pre-Stonewall American television episodes with LGBT themes, List of 1970s American television episodes with LGBT themes, List of 1980s American television episodes with LGBT themes, List of American television episodes with LGBT themes, 1990-1997, List of post-Ellen American television episodes with LGBT themes (all of which contain substantive introductory sections on LGBT representation on television), Media portrayal of lesbianism (which could easily be split out into a separate article per WP:SUMMARY, with the lesbian kiss episode section as a possible sub-sub-article), Cross-dressing in film and television, Media portrayals of bisexuality and I'm sure many others that I've overlooked. Otto4711 (talk) 22:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I noticed those when searching for an article on the general subject of LGBT in television, and from what I read there wasn't really any portion explaining why an LGBT-themed television episode is a particularly notable occurance over, say, any other central episode theme. Perhaps this would be so 30 years ago, but today I really don't see this as uncommon at all. VegaDark (talk) 02:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's true only recently, I would say since Queer Eye and L Word became quite fashionable; and only true in certain countries and therefore an editing issue to be resolved. That's different than none of these were ever notable. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   03:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I was mostly responding to your comment about there being no LGBT in television article by saying that in effect there is, it's just split out over a number of different articles. As to why an LGBT-themed episode topic is more notable than another central episode theme, it may be that there are other themes out there which are as notable but no one's written up the information on them. This particular central theme remains extremely rare in the context of the history of television. From the origin of regular US network broadcasting in 1946 to 1969, I've found reliable sourcing for barely two dozen television episodes of which homosexuality was a central theme. When a controversial topic like homosexuality is a central theme at a rate of approximately once per year for the first quarter-century of American television and when a number of those episodes are themselves the subject of multiple reliable sources, it seems to me that this might be considered more of a notable or defining characteristic of such episodes than a theme like "the family buys a new pet" or "the kids break the neighbor's window playing ball and learn a valuable lesson" or what-not. Yes, such episodes have slowly become more commonplace, with five or so per year in the 1970s, about seven per year in the 1980s and so on, but hardly growing at such an exponential rate as to allow them to be considered completely non-notable based on their frequency. LGBT themes in individual TV episodes are the subject of continued study (see Tropiano, Capsuto, etc.). It may be that as television progresses LGBT-themed episodes in series that do not generally address such themes will become so commonplace as compared to other central television episode themes as to make this category obsolete. I don't believe that time is upon us yet nor is it likely to be in the near future. Otto4711 (talk) 04:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You make some good points, but I'm sticking with my original rationale. Another thing don't like the temporary nature of this category. It seems we agree that, assuming society will continue to be more GLBT-friendly as time goes on (a safe assumption IMO), the more episodes of these we will have and the less notable this occurance becomes. I think that point has occured, while you don't think it has, but I think we both agree that at some point this category probably should be deleted. I think a better idea would be to create Category:LGBT-related television episodes of the 20th century or something similar, as those may be notable, but I don't think some of the early episodes in the 50s or 60s which were rare should be grouped in with a 2009 episode of some show which isn't really uncommon. VegaDark (talk) 14:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anarcho-punk bands
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Kbdank71 13:20, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Anarcho-punk bands to Category:Anarcho-punk groups
 * Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of Category:Punk rock groups. Other categories use "groups", this one is the only one that uses "bands". Radiant chains (talk) 11:58, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Support rename to match title of corresponding categories. Alansohn (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People with their own private railway halt
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Kbdank71 13:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * people with their own private railway halt


 * Nominator's rationale: I find the idea of this category rather fun, but it's a little trivial, and most importantly only one of the 8 articles in the category (Sir John Simeon) makes any mention of a private railway station. If the others were removed from the category (as they should be), then the category would contain only one article, which is no aid to navigation. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC) Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment – List of private railway stations in Great Britain is perhaps the source for this category. It's a defining characteristic of the 'halt' but not of the person, I would say. Occuli (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete This is rather fascinating, and I enjoyed reading the parent article. However, I don't see how navigation is aided by having this category. I will reconsider if offered an explanation of the significance to the individuals. Alansohn (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Listify and then delete -- It was common for landowners to insist that they could stop any train on a line crossing their manor. The right was abolished in (I think) 1968, amking this a closed category.  The category probably only contains a few articles for teh very reason that it is so trivial.  Furthermore, some who had the right to stop trains did not have private halts, becasue there was a public station within the manor.  Peterkingiron (talk) 00:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete not defining. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete highly defining for the halt, but not for the person who has one. List of private railway stations in Great Britain will suffice for those interested in the topic. <strong style="color:green;">Arsenikk <sup style="color:grey;">(talk)  15:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Canadian hardcore punk bands
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Kbdank71 13:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Canadian hardcore punk bands to Category:Canadian hardcore punk groups
 * Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other categories in Category:Canadian musical groups by genre and Category:Hardcore punk groups. This category is the only one that says "bands" instead of "groups" in the title. Radiant chains (talk) 11:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Bearcat (talk) 06:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Support rename to match titles of corresponding categories. Alansohn (talk) 19:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French lycée outside of France
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge to Category:French international schools. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:French lycée outside of France to Category:French lycées outside of France
 * Nominator's rationale: Needs pluralising. Lincolnite (talk) 10:13, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This can be moved to SPEEDY RENAMING - exactly why that exists. Cgingold (talk) 10:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No it can't! Rename to Category:French lycées outside France. Absolutely no need for US-only style (and not the best US style I think) here. Better, upmerge per Occuli.Johnbod (talk) 15:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:French international schools … unnecessary subcat containing nearly all the 'French international schools'. Occuli (talk) 19:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:French international schools as there seems to be no difference between the schools included in the two categories other than use of the word "lycée". Alansohn (talk) 01:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Upmerge per Occuli. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Oyster Bay History Walk
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
 * The result of the discussion was: deleted by User:Vegaswikian (WP:CSD) Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * oyster bay history walk


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. I am proposing deletion of this category because it represents a subset of Category:History of Oyster Bay, New York, which is not a well-populated category at the moment. Additionally there is already an article Oyster Bay History Walk, which currently lists all the articles that are in this category. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:13, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. The article and both categories are all the work of the same editor. Oddly, the article was not even included in the category of the same name. Neither of the highly redundant categories were provided with parents, and both featured full paragraphs of text, so it's clear that their creator simply has a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of Categories on Wikipedia. This history walk strikes me as perfect material for a navbox template to go on the bottom of each article.  Cgingold (talk) 09:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete As the author I accept this deletion request and am working to make the History of Oyster Bay, New York category the norm. Also appreciate the navbox template idea. Have never done this before but will look into it. Thank you. Inoysterbay (talk) 15:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete this would seem to be settled anyway, but as it stands now, the category adds little. If the locations were added and removed from the parent, it might be possible to construct a category that would be a useful aid to navigation. Alansohn (talk) 01:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Upmerge this and Category:History of Oyster Bay, New York to Category:Oyster Bay, New York. We do not need such subcategories, except where the main category becomes too large.  Peterkingiron (talk) 00:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I deleted the category since it was empty and was a duplicate of the text in the article, so it was an article masquerading as a category and WP:SNOW. I have elected to not close the discussion to allow a discussion on the upmerge suggested by Peterkingiron for Category:History of Oyster Bay, New York.  Vegaswikian (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Category:History of Oyster Bay, New York and do not upmerge to Category:Town of Oyster Bay, New York. Category:Town of Oyster Bay, New York has 5 subcategories and 55 articles so keeping the history in a subcategory seems to be the logical action. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am in agreement with this: no upmerge. Cgingold (talk) 12:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.