Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 July 7



Category:British victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Upmerge Category:British victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes and Category:Canadian victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes to Category:Victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes.  --  X damr  talk 09:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:British victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes to Category:Anti-LGBT hate crime in the United Kingdom
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. There is only 1 article in the current category, and with a bit of a broader category name, the category could be more usefull be having more articles, like the article Murder of Michael Causer. Cheers Law Lord (talk) 21:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename (& reparent) per Law Lord - and Admiral Duncan pub. Johnbod (talk) 01:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete along with Category:Canadian victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes as overcategorisation. Category:American victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes is justified only by the number of articles. Debresser (talk) 22:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:Victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes to keep the article within the category structure. I'm not seeing the pressing need for the suggested target category but even if it existed I don't think articles about individual victims should be in it. Otto4711 (talk) 04:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Categories are not justified only by size. The reason Category:Canadian victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes needs to exist is because its articles, regardless of number, would otherwise need to be filed directly in Category:Victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes and Category:LGBT people from Canada and Category:LGBT history in Canada (which isn't supposed to have individual people directly in it anyway, but is required to reflect this topic in some capacity) and Category:Canadian murder victims all at the same time. It's not just about the number of articles (more could certainly be written anyway, for both Canada and the UK); it's about the proper way of putting the articles in their appropriate context across all of the categories they need to be part of, and in both cases a single category is more appropriate than four-parents-at-once. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 17:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why on earth would articles on individual victims of hate crimes in Foo be "required" to be placed in the LGBT history of Foo? An article that is actually about hate crimes in Foo would, but not the individual victims (or perpetrators). Murder victims should be in the murder victims category regardless of motivation and not all hate crimes victims are killed. Since not all victims of anti-LGBT violence are LGBT, LGBT victims should be in an LGBT people of Foo category as well. Otto4711 (talk) 00:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:Victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes (along with Category:Canadian victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes) The nominated category has a single article and the Canadian has two. The parent has about five other articles that could justify five more by country categories. These categories are too small to justify at this point, there is no overall structure with any substance and I sincerely hope that these categories will remain too small to justify recreation. Alansohn (talk) 04:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Old provinces of Laos

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge to Category:Subdivisions of Laos.  --  X damr  talk 23:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category:Old provinces of Laos to Category:Subdivisions of Laos
 * Nominator's rationale: Technical nomination to affirm an out of process merge. As far as I could find out, there was only one article in the category before the merge. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yah, that's fine. Chutznik (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pacific Northwest cities

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete.  --  X damr  talk 23:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * pacific northwest cities


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Unnecessary redundant cat created by notorious (and blocked for sockpuppetry) bad cat creator. If kept, should be renamed Category:Cities of the Pacific Northwest. (which should only contain the Cities of Oregon, Cities of Washington, etc. categories, thus seems unnecessary) Katr67 (talk) 18:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment – there is Category:Pacific Northwest and it would seem reasonable to include Category:Settlements in Oregon etc as subcats of this (either singly or together under an umbrella category Category:Settlements of the Pacific Northwest say). Occuli (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Pacific Northwest is a vague term that encompasses different things as interpreted by differing people, as exemplified by what Occuli said, and what appears in the article Pacific Northwest 70.29.208.69 (talk) 03:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian Open

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename per nom.  --  X damr  talk 23:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming


 * Category:Australian Open to Category:Australian Open (tennis)
 * Category:Australian Open champions to Category:Australian Open (tennis) champions
 * Category:Australian Opens by year to Category:Australian Open (tennis) by year
 * Nominator's rationale: to disambiguate from Australian Open (golf). (Will nominate the subcat pages from 1969 through 2009 should this nomination by accepted.) Mayumashu (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename all per nom and consider renaming Australian Open to Australian Open (tennis). (There is a similar problem with the French Open with the category at Category:French Open, as opposed to Open de France in golf. US Open in contrast goes to a very comprehensive and exemplary disamb page.) Occuli (talk) 16:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose Renames Here we are trying to wag the dog again. U.S. Open must be disambiguated because there are two different tournaments, U.S. Open (golf) and US Open (tennis), that have equal claims to the title. The Australian Open tennis tournament, one of the four tennis Grand Slam events, is a far better known and global event that rightfully "owns" the title, while Australian Open (golf) is a comparatively minor regional event. If there is a genuine feeling that there is some confusion as to what sport the Australian Open refers to, the proper means to deal with this is to discuss this at Talk:Australian Open, see if there is consensus to disambiguate the name, and then revisit the issue here only after the title of the parent article has been changed. Without following this process, we only create unnecessary disruption by having the category title conflict with the article title. As to the inevitable argument that we need to be clearer with categories, there is no confusion with the article title, and the titles set there in the real world should override any efforts at adding confusion in the narrow world of CfD. Alansohn (talk) 19:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose Renames Agree with Alansohn. The tennis tournament has so much more prestige than the golf open. There is already a disambiguation page, Australian Open (disambiguation). A similar page, French Open (disambiguation), could be created for the French Open. Cjc13 (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename all. Category names should be unambiguous, since they don't have all the benefits of article space that allow us to implement WP:PRIMARY. Categories don't invariably have to match the main article name. Category:Australian Open should be a category DAB page. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How would people know from the title that Category:Australian Open was a category DAB page ? I do not see that this would improve things. There does not appear to be any confusion at present. Regarding Category:Australian Opens by year there are no other Australian Opens by year. There may be confusion in the Category:Australian Open champions but again there are no similar categories.Cjc13 (talk) 10:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't know by looking at the name alone. Categories don't work that way. It's a bit different from article space. DAB categories work like this. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the example, (curiously all the Victoria places are named after Queen Victoria, the first item on the list), but what other categories for Australian Open would appear in the DAB category ? Cjc13 (talk) 10:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Potentially you could have one for the golf tournament. With the way categories multiply, it may not be long. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per Good Ol'factory, categories should be unambiguous because of maintenance problems caused by ambiguity. 70.29.208.69 (talk) 03:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By that reasoning Category:Super Bowl, amongst many others, needs to be changed. Where are the confusions ? What maitenance problems has it caused ? If you look at the Category:Australian Open, it would be obvious if an incorrect item was included. The Australian Open (golf) does not have a corresponding category. The three categories listed above are the only ones that start with Australian Open, with the last two categories being subcategories of the first. What categories are they going to be confused with ? Cjc13 (talk) 10:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think your example demonstrates what you intended. There is no Super Bowl (disambiguation); the term is not ambiguous—it has one meaning. Not so with "Australian Open". Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:United Church of Christ

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename per nom.  --  X damr  talk 23:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:United Church of Christ congregations to Category:United Church of Christ churches
 * Category:United Church of Christ congregations in Illinois to Category:United Church of Christ churches in Illinois
 * Category:United Church of Christ congregations in Massachusetts to Category:United Church of Christ churches in Massachusetts
 * Category:United Church of Christ congregations in New York to Category:United Church of Christ churches in New York
 * Category:United Church of Christ congregations in Florida to Category:United Church of Christ churches in Florida
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. The category is used for church buildings and should be so named. Its parent is Category:Churches in the United States. The subcategories have parents of Category:Churches in foo. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * AGree completely with nominator. Debresser (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to match parent and sister cats.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 03:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename noting however that "congregations" seems to be the term this church uses, that there is no other category for articles on them & that the long Trinity United Church of Christ (Obama's old one) covers everything except the building. Several articles show no evidence they are affiliated with this church in fact. Johnbod (talk) 19:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Frontside artists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. --  X damr  talk 23:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * frontside artists


 * Nominator's rationale: The main article, Frontside Promotions, (which I afd'd) has no sources. Most articles in cat, don't mention Frontside, and none that I've seen, have third-party cites about it.  What they appear to do for artists (such as generating web traffic), isn't very notable, and we shouldn't be listing every company an artist uses the services of.  The very name, "Frontside artists" appears misleading to me.  There's no indication they have any signficant exclusive relationship with these artists, and no independent sources to say anyone would consider themselves a "Frontside artist".  They're trying to equate themselves with a record label, which is inappropriate. Rob (talk) 06:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw this earlier and thought it was surely CFD bait, but got distracted. Definitely a delete; we most certainly don't need a category for each individual artist promotion company in existence, particularly given that many bands work with a dozen or more of them on different marketing campaigns, in different markets, in different phases of their careers, and on and so forth. WP:OCAT. Bearcat (talk) 06:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sci Fi Channel (United States) staff

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (empty at close). Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * sci fi channel (united states) staff


 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category; only had four articles that have already been upmerged to parent cat. No need for such a breakdown when main cat is about the "company" of Sci Fi (now Syfy) -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with nominator. Debresser (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional characters with genius-level intellect

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. --  X damr  talk 23:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * fictional characters with genius-level intellect


 * Nominator's rationale: This category seems vague. Although 'genius level' seems specific, the term genius is an adjective widely applied in fiction without any actual portrayal of a specific measurement. Further, because many of those in the category are collaboratively written, various writers may be inconsistent in their portrayal, applications of 'biographical fact', or by changing the 'facts' about that character. Although this seems like a 'characters with X Power', it's more like 'Characters who've had an adjective used about them.' I cant' recall ever hearing that the Brain took an IQ test or discussed it in real terms. ThuranX (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Additional Information Since nomination, it has come to my attention this is the recreation of an already deleted category, and thus qualifies for Speedy Deletion. ThuranX (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did G4 speedy delete the category for a time, but have since restored. The original discussion was over two years ago, and continuing the debate here is the best option to determine whether consensus has changed on the issue. Thank you. — Satori Son 13:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorse Satori Son's re-opening (I had administratively closed discussion when I saw it had been deleted already). Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, seems like a pretty OR category and nearly impossible to accurately populate. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete - as recreation of previously deleted content. Otherwise delete as subjective inclusion criterion. Otto4711 (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See no reason to delete If the word "genius" is used in the fiction, that is enough of a criteria for us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Debresser (talk • contribs)
 * But that's not a criteria being used. It's WP:OR more than anything else. And is primary sourcing really sufficient in those cases where the word is used? Further, not every use of the word, if seen in context, is enough. 'Yeah, he's a real genius' can be sarcasm or serious. It becomes WP:OR to determine whether a character is sincere or not in their use of the word. ThuranX (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Original research to add fictional characters to such a category when the term is not well-defined. Doctorfluffy (wanna get fluffed?) 13:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete we're not smart enough to know how smart a fictional character is. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Fictional geniuses Whether it's a superpower, a job, or number of limbs, or a religion we have only one means to make determinations about these characteristics, and that is descriptions in reliable and verifiable sources about these characters. Rather than latching onto the awkward wording of the category, the question of this being a defining characteristic is the relevant question here. Given that greatly-superior intelligence is not an arbitrary feature applied to a character by its creator, this is indeed defining. A rename will address concerns regarding the use of "adjectives". The use of reliable sources addressed any claims of WP:OR and the "arbitrary inclusion criteria" has been resoundingly rebutted by overwhelming community consensus regarding Category:LGBT-related television episodes. As to the example offered by the nominator, This article in the Denver Post had no trouble describing how "Their efforts are led by Brain, a genius whose intellect is matched only by his ego", and the show's theme song states that "One is a genius; the other's insane / To prove their mousey worth / They'll overthrow the earth / They're dinky; they're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain." This article from The Village Voice aptly described Kevin Spacey's role "As evil genius Lex Luthor" in Superman Returns. One would be hardpressed to argue that the characters Pinky and Lex Luthor were not given superior intellects as their character's defining characteristic. I sincerely pray that we won't hear the argument from retroactive continuity, in which the possible reimagining of a character is purported to undo any of their characteristics, which if it has any validity at all is an argument to delete the entire fictional characteristic structure and has no particular relevance to this category under discussion. Without objective standards based on reliable sources, all we have is an arbitrary decision to delete some categories and keep others. Alansohn (talk) 19:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So on the one hand we have hundreds of categories deleted for having arbitrary, vague or subjective inclusion standards. On the other we have a single category in which the community decided that the stated inclusion criteria were sufficiently objective. My, what a sweeping repudiation of the concept! Otto4711 (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As stated above, and as the sources demonstrate, the inclusion criteria here are not "arbitrary, vague or subjective". Given the broad precedent set with near-unanimous consensus on two occasions, squishily arbitrary inclusion standards are not an issue. Any response to the multiple reliable and verifiable sources establishing the characteristic as defining? Alansohn (talk) 22:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As stated above, it's one category kept vs hundreds of categories deleted. Maybe in Alantown that represents a "broad precedent" or a change in consensus, but across the border one example is not representative of a broad anything. As for the inclusion criteria, there are none on the category page and never were. And as always, a source calling a fictional character a genius serves to allow inclusion of the information in an article. It does not automatically qualify as a category, otherwise every sourced fact in every article would be eligible for a category. Otto4711 (talk) 21:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually live in Wikipediaville, where reliable and verifiable sources are the law of the land. The sources I have found have no difficulty in identifying any of the individuals included in the category as a "genius", and do so in a manner which shows that the media defines characters in this manner. Using depictions and descriptions in reliable and verifiable sources is the ultimate rebuttal to the claim that the category is subjective. If only bedrock Wikipedia policy on reliable and verifiable sources applied in Ottotown. Any response to the multiple reliable and verifiable sources establishing the characteristic as defining? Alansohn (talk) 04:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, hundreds of categories deleted, one category kept. Does not establish a change in consensus or, really, anything. My response to your tired RS argument is the same as it always is and will be. RS is not the standard for categorization, otherwise every verifiable fact in every article would be eligible for its own category. Otto4711 (talk) 12:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep As long as those in that list, are considered in their series as a genius, they should be added.  It seems someone already deleted it, because they had another category with a similar title that once existed, and was already deleted by a few more deletes than keeps.   D r e a m Focus  20:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have restored so this discussion can continue. For the previous discussion, please see Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 15. — Satori Son 13:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as requiring OR/subjective/synthetic decisions. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per deleters. Fictional characters are constantly being told they are geniuses; let's not encourage this belief. We don't have categories for real geniuses, so why for fictional ones? Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Alansohn, Dream Focus. Category:Fictional geniuses is a better title. I don't think that there really are many difficult borderline cases - fictional geniuses are almost always written as characters where the "genius-hood" is a strong defining characteristic.John Z (talk) 10:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sci Fi Channel (United States)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:Syfy.  --  X damr  talk 23:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Sci Fi Channel (United States) to Category:Syfy
 * Nominator's rationale: To match the new name of the channel. Sub cats should be left alone until we know for sure those divisions will also be renamed. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 04:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 16:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom as well. I agree with the assessment that we should wait on the other sub categories as Category:Sci Fi Channel (Australia).--DrWho42 (talk) 01:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Try other Sci Fi Channel related categories to be renamed to Syfy as well. Steam5 (talk) 02:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See Categories for discussion/Log/2009 July 10 for the rename requests of the other two cats to be kept. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 02:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Economics of global warming

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge to Category:Economics and climate change.  --  X damr  talk 09:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category:Economics of global warming to Category:Economics and climate change
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge, these two categories cover essentially the same subject matter.  Eastlaw  talk ⁄ contribs 00:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why isn't Category:Economics of global warming a subcategory of Category:Economics and climate change? Make into subcategory without merge. Debresser (talk) 08:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge, prefer "climate change" though either term is OK. Unlike Debresser's opinion, I see no distinction between the contents of these categories as currently populated. Chutznik (talk) 21:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.