Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 September 10



Indian Awards

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename all per nom.  --  X damr  talk 13:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming


 * Category:Ananda Purashkar recipients to Category:Recipients of the Ananda Purashkar
 * Category:Arjuna Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Arjuna Award
 * Category:Dronacharya Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Dronacharya Award
 * Category:Gandhi Peace Prize recipients to Category:Recipients of the Gandhi Peace Prize
 * Category:Indira Gandhi Peace Prize recipients to Category:Recipients of the Indira Gandhi Peace Prize
 * Category:Jnanpith Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Jnanpith Award
 * Category:Kalidas Samman Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Kalidas Samman Award
 * Category:Karnataka Ratna Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Karnataka Ratna Award
 * Category:Outstanding Parliamentarian Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Outstanding Parliamentarian Award
 * Category:Pravasi Bharatiya Community Service Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Pravasi Bharatiya Community Service Award
 * Category:Rabindra Puraskar recipients to Category:Recipients of the Rabindra Puraskar
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients in Assamese to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Assamese
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award Recipients(Bengali) to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Bengali
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients in Hindi to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Hindi
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients in Malayalam to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Malayalam
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients in Marathi to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Marathi
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Award recipients in Rajasthani to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Award in Rajasthani
 * Category:Sahitya Akademi Fellowship recipients to Category:Recipients of the Sahitya Akademi Fellowship
 * Category:Saraswati Samman Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Saraswati Samman Award
 * Category:Sangeet Natak Akademi Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Sangeet Natak Akademi Award
 * Category:Sangeet Natak Akademi Fellowship recipients to Category:Recipients of the Sangeet Natak Akademi Fellowship
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Biological Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Biological Science
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Chemical Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Chemical Science
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Earth, Atmosphere, Ocean & Planetary Sciences to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Earth, Atmosphere, Ocean & Planetary Sciences
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Engineering Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Engineering Science
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Mathematical Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Mathematical Science
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Medical Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Medical Science
 * Category:Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award recipients in Physical Science to Category:Recipients of the Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Award in Physical Science
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename to bring 'Recipients' categories in established form per precedent. Hekerui (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename all per precedent. Debresser (talk) 08:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:ZEDEPHIAN

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: '''speedy deleted by Orangemike per G11. VegaDark (talk) 06:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * zedephian


 * Nominator's rationale: I've never really nominated a category for deletion, but this category seems inappropriate. It appears to be based on a neologism and looks like it is better suited for an article. TN X Man  20:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Old Testament Hebrew words and phrases

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: '''Renaming
 * '''Category:Old Testament words and phrases to Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases
 * '''Category:Old Testament Hebrew words and phrases to Category:Hebrew words and phrases in the Hebrew Bible
 * '''Category:Old Testament Greek words and phrases to Category:Septuagint words and phrases
 * per Fayenetic's summary. I agree that there is at least consensus to rename "Old Testament" to something else. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Old Testament Hebrew words and phrases to Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases
 * Propose renaming Category:Old Testament Greek words and phrases to Category:Septuagint words and phrases
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. All other categories about the Biblical books shared by Jews & Christians have been renamed as "Hebrew Bible". I acknowledge that the first one is not straightforward, as the word "Hebrew" in the proposed name has a double meaning: that the word/phrase is in the Tanakh/Old Testament, and that it is of the Hebrew language. I also acknowledge that the new names would not be consistent with the sub-cats of Category:New Testament words and phrases. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Suggestions are also welcome on the appropriate category for English-language phrases from the Tanakh/Old Testament, currently in Category:Old Testament words and phrases. Maybe a new sub-cat, Category:English words and phrases from the Hebrew Bible? In that case, should the first nominated category be Category:Hebrew words and phrases from the Hebrew Bible?
 * Also, Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 23 may help. - Fayenatic (talk) 18:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Hebrew words and phrases from the Hebrew Bible and Category:Greek words and phrases from the Hebrew Bible? That with a renamed  Category:English words and phrases from the Hebrew Bible is the best solution, and consistent. Johnbod (talk) 20:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Septuagint words and phrases and Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases, per nom. Use of "Hebrew words and phrases" is confussing/misleading in an English encyclopedia. These others could work if changed to something more like "Category:Words and phrases of Hebrew origin". User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 04:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Septuagint words and phrases and Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases with a subcat Category:Hebrew words and phrases in the Hebrew BibleCatalographer (talk) 12:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Response: That's an improvement on my nomination, but it's the current Category:Old Testament Hebrew words and phrases that would correspond to the proposed name Category:Hebrew words and phrases in the Hebrew Bible. The latter is clearer than my suggestion in the nomination (and similar to Johnbod's, for that one). Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases would then be the right one to replace Category:Old Testament words and phrases. There would only be a need to keep a category called Old Testament if there are any articles about words and phrases only found in the OT Apocrypha (I can only think of one, Let Us Now Praise Famous Men, and that is about a book rather than the phrase). - Fayenatic (talk) 21:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Summary: there is at least a consensus to rename from Old Testament to Hebrew Bible. To assist closure, which is delayed already, I suggest the following:
 * Category:Old Testament words and phrases to Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases
 * Category:Old Testament Hebrew words and phrases to Category:Hebrew words and phrases in the Hebrew Bible
 * Category:Old Testament Greek words and phrases to Category:Septuagint words and phrases.
 * If this is adopted then to achieve consistency with the middle one I will propose a further rename of the NT sub-cats to "XX words and phrases in the New Testament". - Fayenatic (talk) 20:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:IQ albums

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:IQ albums to Category:IQ (band) albums.  --  X damr  talk 13:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:IQ albums to Category:IQ (band) albums
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match article IQ (band) and disambiguate from Category:IQ (girl group) albums. Tassedethe (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename. It's interesting that the band article is disambiguated with "(band)", even though the girl group is a band as well. I guess it is considered primary topic for that name, and while I don't necessarily like the disambiguation, I think it's reasonable to rename the category to match the band article. Jafeluv (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per IQ (band) (which was a band before any of IQ (girl group) were born). Occuli (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:House of Bourbon du Maine

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:House of Bourbon du Maine to Category:House of Bourbon-Maine.  --  X damr  talk 13:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:House of Bourbon du Maine to Category:House of Bourbon-Maine
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match the article House of Bourbon-Maine. Tassedethe (talk) 10:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename per nominator. And to keep it English. Debresser (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian Top 40 radio stations

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:Australian Top 40 radio stations to Category:Contemporary hit radio stations in Australia.  --  X damr  talk 13:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Australian Top 40 radio stations to Category:Contemporary hit radio stations in Australia
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match the article Contemporary hit radio (which is where Top 40 radio redirects) and the category Category:Contemporary hit radio stations. Tassedethe (talk) 08:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rhythmic AC stations

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:Rhythmic AC stations to Category:Rhythmic adult contemporary radio stations.  --  X damr  talk 13:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Rhythmic AC stations to Category:Rhythmic adult contemporary radio stations
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. Spell out abbreviation to match article Rhythmic adult contemporary and category Category:Adult contemporary radio stations. Tassedethe (talk) 08:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename per nominator, and per guideline to avoid abbreviations. Debresser (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Islamic science

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge Category:Islamic science to Category:Islam and science.  --  X damr  talk 13:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Islamic science to Category:Islam and science
 * Nominator's rationale: Matches the page at Islam and science. The only article in this category can be moved to Category:History of Islamic science. Science crosses all cultures and while Muslims have contributed much to science it should not be called "Islamic science". -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 08:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong rename I bet this was created by the same POV author who created articles about Muslim Agricultural Revolution, Inventions of the Islamic Golden Age et al. Debresser (talk) 08:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * REstructure: merge as nom, making this the parent category for the tree with Category:History of Islamic science as a subcategory and the single article moved to that. The author also spammed a lot of non-ferrous (and even non-metallurgical) content into History of ferrous metallurgy, which remained there for some time.  However, I am not quite so sure that all his work was POV.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename per all. Restructure sounds fine too - we don't need to confirm it I think. Johnbod (talk) 03:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Bamboo and Bamboos

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:Bamboos to Category:Bamboo taxa. Keep Category:Bamboo. Jafeluv (talk) 13:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bamboo to Category:Bamboo products or Category:Bamboo (material)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bamboos to Category:Bambuseae
 * Nominator's rationale: At present we have categories entitled Bamboo and Bamboos, intended for the material and plant taxon respectively. The distinction seems to be valid, and the categories are well populated. The names, however, are horribly confusing, partly because they are too similar, and because they fail to capture the intended distinction. Whilst the name "Bamboos" probably doesn't fit the material very well, the name "Bamboo" fits both taxon and material quite easily. At least one of these categories needs to be renamed, and I suggest that both ought to be. The rationale for the move from "Bamboo" is the inherent and irreparable ambiguity of the term. The rationale for the move from "Bamboos" is the confusion factor, plus the fact that "Bambuseae" is a much more appropriate name for a category that is explicitly restricted to a taxon as opposed to the material that derives from it. Hesperian 05:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - as people are likely to start looking at Bamboo initially the second is probably better as Category:Bamboo (taxonomy). Twiceuponatime (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it would be "Bamboo (taxon)"; but I really think "Bambuseae" is more appropriate here. In any case the Bamboo and Bamboos categories will need to be tagged with category ambiguous. Hesperian 12:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - this is not the conventional way of organising categories. There should be a 'topic' supercat Category:Bamboo, head article Bamboo, with various subcats, one of which might well be Category:Bamboos (a list subcat, for articles about particular species) and another could well be Category:Bamboo products. This could all be done without involving cfd. (Eg Category:Wine, subcat Category:Wines.) Occuli (talk) 13:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, it works the other way around in this case. Not all bamboo taxa produce useful bamboo material; but all bamboo material comes from bamboo taxa. Therefore bamboo (material) is a subtopic of bamboo (taxon). Secondly, you've begged the question, because you're still proposing we have categories named both "Bamboo" and "Bamboos". This nomination is based entirely on the premise that these names are too close and therefore too confusing. If you start with the presumption that this premise is wrong, then of course you'll end up concluding that the nomination is unnecessary. But you won't have proved a thing, because you haven't addressed the actual point. Hesperian 13:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is standard throughout wikipedia to have the pairs Category:Foo, subcat Category:Foos; not at all confusing. I would address the point by reorganising the material. All bamboo-related stuff should be within Category:Bamboo. (Category:Bambuseae might well be a better name than Category:Bamboos. I defer to others on this, on which I have no expertise.) Occuli (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Standard throughout Wikipedia"? Examples? You've given me "wine" and "wines". How many more do you have? As far as I can tell this "standard throughout Wikipedia" method only works in the rare case of nouns with two distinct plural forms for countable and uncountable plurals. And what is the scope of "all bamboo-related stuff". Do you mean everything related to the material, or everything related to the taxon? If you mean the material, then "Bamboos" can't be a subcategory, since not everything in category "Bamboos" will have anything to do with the material yielded by some species. Hesperian 00:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Category:Bamboo per Occuli and the usual way of organizing schemes, which Hesperian has apparently not yet grasped - that "Not all bamboo taxa produce useful bamboo material; but all bamboo material comes from bamboo taxa" is no doubt true, but entirely beside the point! Perhaps rename "Bamboos" although clearly the word will be unknown to many or most readers. Johnbod (talk) 20:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you grant that quote as correct, then "Bamboos" won't be a subcategory of "Bamboo". We would have to identify the particular bamboo species articles that produce the bamboo material, and tag them into both "Bamboo" and "Bamboos". Yeah, that'll be crystal clear. Hesperian 00:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that's not the way categories work. Read up on it. Johnbod (talk) 04:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bamboo the material is defined, or at least contrained, by the plant that it derives from: if it doesn't come from a species of Bambuseae, it ain't bamboo. Bamboo the plant is not defined or constrained by the material; a bamboo plant is bamboo whether it yields bamboo the material or not. One can imagine articles about bamboo the plant taxon that are unrelated to bamboo the material. But every article about bamboo the material is inherently about bamboo the plant taxon. Clearly bamboo the material is a subtopic of bamboo the plant taxon. Having made more than 2000 category edits, I flatter myself I merit a little more than the above patronising dismissal. Is it possible that it is you who is mistaken here? Hesperian 04:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The alternative is to accept "Bamboo" as the name of the broader topic, defined not in terms of the material but in terms of Bambuseae in general (which includes the material). Then rename "Bamboos" to "Bamboo taxa", to indicate that this category contains articles on specific genera and species of bamboo. Hesperian 04:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's right. I'd be fine with "Bamboo taxa". There are a number of articles in that category that should be either in the topic one (Whangee, Bamboo shoot/flower etc) or just in the genus one - all the Phyllostachys species are repeated. I should have disclosed what I had forgotten, that I created Category:Bamboo. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay; let's try again: Hesperian 05:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Bamboos to Category:Bamboo taxa
 * Nominator's rationale: The category name "Bamboos" is too similar to the parent category "Bamboo", and it is not at all clear that it is intended for bamboo genera and species. Hesperian 05:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Support this one. Johnbod (talk) 05:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support also. Removes (some) of the ambiguity. Twiceuponatime (talk) 08:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support also. (And there should be a new cat Category:Bamboo products to contain bamboo products; and Category:Bamboo should be the supra cat.) Occuli (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need for the products - not really the right term anyway - myself. But whatever. Johnbod (talk) 11:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Federal Correctional Institution, Texarkana inmates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge Category:Federal Correctional Institution, Texarkana inmates to Category:Prisoners and detainees of the United States federal government.  --  X damr  talk 14:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category:Federal Correctional Institution, Texarkana inmates to Category:Prisoners and detainees of the United States federal government
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge. I'm not sure how it can be said to be defining to have been housed in any particular low-security prison of the U.S. federal government. I can understand.  (the federal supermax) I can also understand. But there doesn't seem to be anything remarkable about this prison or the inmates sent there.  Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment -- Do not prisoners in US get moved from prison to prsion during their sentences, as they do in UK. If so, being incarcerated in a particulr prison will usually be non-defining, implying delete.  However, there may be some where detention would be notable, especially maximum security prisons.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - prisoners can in fact be shuttled from one facility to another in the course of incarceration. As noted in the nom, only in certain very rare instances could incarceration in a particular prison be considered defining (and at least one of the examples in the nom is questionable). Otto4711 (talk) 20:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Remainder religious converts

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. There is clearly consensus here that categories by these names should not exist, and no consensus to rename them. Further creation of subcategories can be done after the merger if needed. The point about whether conversion should equate to "former" is out of the scope of this discussion; the point applies to everything in Category:People by former religion, so I suggest raising the issue there. Jafeluv (talk) 11:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggest merging Category: Converts from Islam to other religions to Category:Former Muslims
 * Suggest merging Category:Orthodox converts to other religions to Category:Former Eastern Orthodox Christians
 * Suggest merging Category:Orthodox converts to other Christian denominations to Category:Former Eastern Orthodox Christians
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge. These are odd little "remainder" or "other" type categories. Being lumped into a "miscellaneous" category for left-overs is not defining for the individuals. (No one is defined for joining an "other" religion. It's like when Rev. Lovejoy classified Apu Nahasapeemapetilon's religion as "miscellaneous". These types of "remainder" categories have consistently been deleted in the past. (The third of these three could conceivably be reworked as a container category for EOCs who converted to Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism, etc., but at this stage if would be easier to just upmerge the contents of this category and create such a container category if it's desired.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Counter proposal: Rename them instead to fit in with Category:New religious movements, i.e. the first one to Category:Converts to new religious movements from Islam, and merge the others as the second to Category:Converts to new religious movements from Eastern Orthodoxy. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * and the third to Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodox minor church bodies and movements. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What you just want this one created from scrach? User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 05:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to populate from scratch. The existing 6 articles are all people who joined the Old Believers and similar splits. Arguably they did not leave Eastern Orthodoxy. Follow WP:PRESERVE and keep them grouped together. Rename the category according to what they converted TO. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the first, Salih ibn Tarif converted to a religion of his own making in the 8th century CE, and that religion became extinct in the 11th century. Is this really classifiable as a "new religious movement"? A similar issue arises with Musaylimah, who was a contemporary of Muhammad who started a religion. I don't think this is a good fit. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right to challenge those two, but the others stand. There is clearly scope for a new head Category:Converts to new religious movements with additional sub-cats.
 * For the two that you mention, I wonder if new Category:Former religions and Category:Converts to former religions would be justified. Pending that, if my proposal is implemented, I promise to check the articles one by one afterwards.
 * As for the Eastern Orthodox, my proposal for the second category stands.
 * However, the new religions of Category:Orthodox converts to other Christian denominations are not "new religious movements", in that they are not recent; they seem to fall into Category:Eastern Orthodox minor church bodies and movements. It is therefore arguable whether they are Category:Former Eastern Orthodox Christians at all. Perhaps the third one should be renamed Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodox minor church bodies and movements, leaving out the "from". - Fayenatic (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I quote from Category:New religious movements:
 * Although there is no one criterion or set of criteria for describing a group as a "new religious movement," use of the term usually requires that the group be both of recent origin and different from existing religions.

Some authors use World War II as the dividing line after which anything is "new", whereas others define as "new" everything after the advent of the Bahá'í Faith (mid-19th century) or even everything after Sikhism (17th century). The New Thought originated in the 1890s, so the label "new" has been used actively for more than a hundred years.
 * User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 05:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What's your point? Ariffin Mohammed & Dwight York (in Category: Converts from Islam to other religions), Gleb Botkin and Nikolai Ilyin (Category:Orthodox converts to other religions) are all converts to new religious movements. Most the other founders of new religious movements are likewise notable and have articles about them. There is clearly enough to make a new group of categories. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Category:Orthodox converts to other Christian denominations should go to Category:Converts to other Christian denominations from Eatstern Orthodoxy per the discussion below. Debresser (talk)
 * But the fact remains we do not have categories for "miscellaneous" or "other" or "remainder" categories, which is exactly what Category:Converts to other Christian denominations from Eatstern Orthodoxy would be. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge all per nom. The so-called counter proposal does not make sense. Most former Eastern Orthodox Christians do not join New religious movements-- and this would create an artifial need to sort out all the former Eastern Orthodox Christians that joined another part of Christianity or joined another older religion, etc, (before the rename process could be finnished). If there really were (or is) a need for this category it can be better done as a sub-category of the new Category:Former Eastern Orthodox Christians, once created. Then there would only be the need to sort such people in, and could be done whenever time allows.
 * To User:Debresser, I point out that categories of the form "Category:Converts to other Christian denominations from one-Christian-denomination" is never used elsewhere but "Category:Former one-Christian-denomination people" is part of the larger system-- if you look a little closer-- and is thus much prefered. User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 05:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The counter-proposal may not sound obvious, but does make complete sense if you look at the actual articles that are currently in the nominated categories. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that in one of the categories it doesn't apply to half of the contents? Rather than muddying the waters in this way, it seems more logical to perform the merge, and then if editors want to try to subdivide the contents left in the broader category, they should create new categories rather than try to shoehorn an old category where it might not quite fit. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Half the contents = 2 of 4 articles, and I already promised to check the results afterwards. But half wrong is half wrong, so in principle you have a point. In the other cases I think WP:PRESERVE would point towards keeping the identification that has already been done. There are plenty of precedents for renaming categories according to how they currently populated. Anyway, if all these three are merged, it won't matter much, and I will take this discussion as consenting (or at least not opposing) the new categories that I have suggested. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's a fair assumption, at least for the new religious movements category. I would oppose the creation of Category:Converts to other Christian denominations from Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm unsure about Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodox minor church bodies and movements, but I'm leaning towards it probably being susceptible to deletion. I'm not sure that WP:PRESERVE is even at issue when the relevant information is still available in the article text—no information is being "lost". For that reason, it's usually not terribly relevant in a category deletion/merge discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not me that proposed the category with "other" in the title. I agree that no category should keep the word "other". My proposal for the second one was Category:Converts to new religious movements from Eastern Orthodoxy. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course it wasn't. My mistake. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose equating conversion to "former". Conversion by force does not necessarily sever ties with "former" community, even less so conversion of convenience. Ask the Spanish Inquisition about it. NVO (talk) 22:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. I don't think the issue of forced conversions exists at all with the articles currently included in these categories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now their contents are a mess, they include completely wrong people (Avvakum never left Eastern Orthodoxy) and I assume that a lot of relevant people are missing from them. NVO (talk) 22:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's fair to say that the proposal to merge is a proposal only to delete the categories and merge the articles in the categories (subject to some exceptions which may have to be dealt with by hand) and not a general proposal to equate conversion to something with being a former something else. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Religious converts clean-up

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename all per nom (using Evangelicalism).  --  X damr  talk 14:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming


 * Category:Converts from Islam to Buddhism to Category:Converts to Buddhism from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Christianity to Category:Converts to Christianity from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Oriental Orthodoxy to Category:Converts to Oriental Orthodoxy from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Eastern Orthodoxy to Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodoxy from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Protestant Christianity to Category:Converts to Protestant Christianity from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Hinduism to Category:Converts to Hinduism from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to Judaism to Category:Converts to Judaism from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to agnosticism to Category:Converts to agnosticism from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Islam to atheism to Category:Converts to atheism from Islam
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Christianity to Category:Converts to Christianity from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Anglicanism to Category:Converts to Anglicanism from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Eastern Orthodoxy to Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodoxy from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Protestant Christianity to Category:Converts to Protestant Christianity from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Mormonism to Category:Converts to Mormonism from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Judaism to Islam to Category:Converts to Islam from Judaism
 * Category:Converts from Pagan religions to Catholicism to Category:Converts to Catholicism from Pagan religions
 * Category:Converts from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy to Category:Converts to Eastern Orthodoxy from Catholicism
 * Category:Converts from Christianity to Islam to Category:Converts to Islam from Christianity
 * Category:Converts from Baptist denominations to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Baptist denominations
 * Category:Converts from Congregationalism to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Congregationalism
 * Category:Converts from Evangelical denominations to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelical denominations
 * Category:Converts from Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Lutheranism
 * Category:Converts from Methodism to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Methodism
 * Category:Converts from Quakerism to Roman Catholicism to Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Quakerism


 * Category:Protestant converts to Bahá'i Faith to Category:Converts to the Bahá'i Faith from Protestant Christianity
 * Category:Protestant converts to Pagan religions to Category:Converts to Pagan religions from Protestant Christianity
 * Category:Protestant converts to Scientology to Category:Converts to Scientology from Protestant Christianity
 * Category:Protestant converts to agnosticism to Category:Converts to agnosticism from Protestant Christianity
 * Category:Protestant converts to atheism to Category:Converts to atheism from Protestant Christianity
 * Category:Orthodox converts to Protestantism to Category:Converts to Protestant Christianity from Eastern Orthodoxy
 * Category:Orthodox converts to Theosophism to Category:Converts to Theosophism from Eastern Orthodoxy
 * Category:Orthodox converts to agnosticism to Category:Converts to agnosticism from Eastern Orthodoxy
 * Category:Orthodox converts to atheism to Category:Converts to atheism from Eastern Orthodoxy
 * Category:Miaphysit Orthodox converts to Catholicism to Category:Converts to Catholicism from Oriental Orthodoxy
 * Category:Former Miaphysit Orthodox Christians to Category:Former Oriental Orthodox Christians


 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. This is a follow-up nomination to this one, where the form of "Converts to FOO from GOO" was implemented. This is essentially a clean-up: changing all of the "from GOO to FOO" categories to the "to FOO from GOO" format and adding some mal-named categories that were missed in the first batch. Undoubtedly, some of these categories are quite small and could perhaps be nominated for deletion after this nomination. I'm also still not sure about using "Protestant Christianity" when the parent category is, but following the resolution of this discussion I will nominate the "Prostestant Christianity" and "Protestantism" ones to bring some resolution to that issue. (I'm also not convinced one can "convert" to agnosticism, but putting that aside. ...) Finally, I suggest changing the reference to the (mis-spelled) "Miaphysit Orthodoxy" to the more commonly used "Oriental Orthodoxy". — Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename all per earlier discussion. I'm going to argue for using "Protestantism" and "Catholicism" again when the time for that comes, but for now I can support this proposal. Jafeluv (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename all for consistency, including "agnosticism". Use "Protestant Christianity" rather than "Protestantism". Distinguish Roman Catholicism from Catholicism. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename all for consistency, per earlier discussion and nom. I am not really happy with Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelical denominations thou, since you would really convert from Evangelicalism or such. Evangelicals by their nature do not identify stongly with a "denomination" and some evangelical churches (but not many) are part of no denomination, Someone can even be evangelical in a non-evangelical denomination. User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 04:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be fine with that adjustment to Evangelicalism. Or you can just follow this issue up with a nomination afterwards. I suspect there are a number of small issues like that one that future nominations could address. It's not my intent that after this nom all of these be carved in stone. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like we can go ahead with the adjustment to Evangelicalism now, without much fear of losing steam... or consensus. So I would prefer to do that, thanks. User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 17:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like there's agreement that that will be OK. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename all per nominator. Speedy? Debresser (talk) 08:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support using "evangelicalism". Peterkingiron (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "evangelicalism" is fine; it doesn't need to be capitalised. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Black Albums

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:Black Albums to Category:Black (Bangladeshi band) albums.  --  X damr  talk 13:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Black Albums to Category:Black (Bangladeshi band) albums
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To disambiguate and to fix caps. This will match the name to the main article—Black (Bangladeshi band). The other band of the same name is Black (English band). Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rename. To avoid ambiguity. —  Σ  xplicit 02:12, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename. Very confusing. Occuli (talk) 10:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename. The title confused me enough to think that there was a category for albums titled The Black Album. Matching the name of the band article seems best here. Jafeluv (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Current events Canada
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: No Consensus.  --  X damr  talk 13:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Relisted from Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_August_29 for further comment. -- X damr  talk 23:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Current events Canada to Category:Current events in Canada portal or Category:Canada current events portal (not sure if "portal" should be capitalized, as in Category:Canada Portal)
 * Nominator's rationale: I think we can find a clearer and/or more gramatically-correct title for this category, which seems to be for a sub-portal of Portal:Current events. (Category creator notified using cfd-notify. –B LACK F ALCON  (T ALK ) 05:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete The standard is "Portal:Current events/Country", as indeed we have Portal:Current events/Canada. No category needed, nor do other countries have it. Debresser (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Portal:Current events:Canada - and it's good to keep around for organizational reasons. 76.66.202.213 (talk) 08:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Category titles should really contain only one colon, which is necessary to identify that the page is in the category namespace—all namespaces, except the article namespace (also known as the "main namespace" or "mainspace"), are identified by a particular prefix. Categories that contain non-mainspace pages do not retain the prefix associated with the namespace of the pages they contain. So, for example, we have Category:Canada Portal and Category:WikiProject Canada, not Category:Portal:Canada and Category:Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada. –B LACK F ALCON  (T ALK ) 19:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.