Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 March 5



Category:American politicians of Slovak descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American politicians of Slovak descent to Category:American people of Slovak descent
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge. per WP:CATGRS, Slovak American politicians do not have a unique history like etc. TM 18:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Upmerge per nom. It seems like an essentially trivial intersection. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Government Office Regions

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Re-name to Category:NUTS 1 statistical regions of England
 * Rationale Per parent category of Category:NUTS 1 statistical regions of the European Union. Also, no country is specified. It's probable that many governments of the world have Offices and indeed Regions. More specific is better than generic. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American basketball players of European descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Upmerge. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * american basketball players of european descent


 * Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination due to the late, and uncountered, argument that this one was different than the rest of the 20+ categories it was nominated with. Courcelles 09:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Support this seems to be an unnotable intersection of ethnicity and nationality and profession.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. White Americans (also known as European Americans) have a unique history in basketball. White Americans are a distinct and significant minority in the NBA and other professional leagues. The topic has been covered in the media on many occasions. Someone even started an all White basketball league. The topic has also been covered at this magazine and on Outside The Lines, a popular ESPN show covering issues in sports. Given all of this, it is no more inappropriate to keep this category than  or  (because of the unique contribution of Jews to the sport).--TM15:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "White American" and "European American" are not the same. These terms are not interchangeble.  On one side the US Census currently says whites are people with their ancestral origin in "Europe, the Middle East or North Africa".  Thus White Americans by census standards include Arab Americans, Egyptian Americans, Armenian Americans, Moroccan Americans and probably Iranian Americans, none of which are by any strech of the immagingion "European Americans".  On the other hand historical and prsdent use of the term "White Americans" often excludes Albanian Americans, Jews, Italian Americans (I can prove this with various citations to dating website race classification schemes) and Russian Americans, all of which are without question European Americans.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * While they may not technically be the same, in common parlance they are the same. Look at a player like Jason Kidd or Joakim Noah. Both have African and European heritage and they are rightfully categorized in both the African American and this category. However, if this is deleted, there will be no category for a player like Larry Bird, who was once identified as a "Great White Hope" while the Jewish and African American categories will persist.--TM 20:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If you want this category to be about White Americans, name it that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:43, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that is not how Wikipedia's naming conventions are currently working, see and --TM 02:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:American basketball players. Just because this is one of the few areas in which African Americans outpace Caucasian Americans does not mean we need a category for it.--Mike Selinker (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What is the rationale behind keeping and not this? Both have a unique history in the sport, just in very different ways.--TM 03:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not in favor of that either, and were it up for deletion as part of a global nomination, I might argue for removing it. In fact,I already did.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A strong consensus exists that, per WP:CATGRS, "Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right." I have shown above that being an American basketball player of European descent is, in fact, a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. If people are creating minor leagues, writing about and consistently noting in pop culture about it, Wikipedia's consensus is to keep the intersection.--TM15:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You've not shown it to my satisfaction, that's for sure. The path of white Americans in basketball is exactly the same as it is in nearly every other field: whites completely owned the environment, then blacks started to make inroads, and now they share the environment. The only thing different about this path is the supereminence of blacks at the end of that path, which does not make the white Americans' path any more notable..--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How many articles on the topic do you need? Slate.com wrote this piece on White American basketball players. TheNew York Daily News and Huffington Post extensively covered the opening of the All-White league above with long discussions on the topic. Noted sports commentator Michael Wilbonwrote an op-ed about White NBA players and White players in general. What else do you want? Look at the stories and think about whether you really think it is not a 'distinct and unique cultural topic'.--TM 16:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not. I think I've adequately stated my reasons as to why. YMMV.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what YMMV means, but I think we need more commentators given that you and I disagree and Johnpacklambert only commented on the White vs. European issue.
 * Sorry, it means "your mileage may vary." That is, you may disagree. Which you do. No harm done.--Mike Selinker (talk) 19:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, can you undelete and repopulate the category pending the outcome of this discussion?--TM 15:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ugh. I thought I'd caught that before it deleted. It is restored now.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mike Selinker (talk) 06:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Delete. No parent article.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:American basketball players. If the intention is to have Category:White American basketball players (or Category:European American basketball players) then it should be renamed (and pruned) rather than surviving under an inaccurate name (as there will be plenty of Americans of European descent who are far from white). Eg there is no mention in the article Vinny Del Negro of his colour; and I expect Yannick Noah would be surprised to find he has a white son (Joakim Noah). In short there is no connection between playing basketball and being of European descent. If there is a wish to categorise counter-examples to the 'white guys can't jump' statement, then we need a better name. Occuli (talk) 13:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Just as Black and African American are used, so should we use White and European descent. I'd rather rename this than delete it.--TM 13:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But 'white' and 'european descent' are different. Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white. Occuli (talk) 14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:American basketball players. FTR I would eliminate the African-American category as well. We do not need to add categories that conflate race and ethnic descent, and even if we did, it would not be as useful as TM seems to think. Categorizations are not footnoted and include both past and present, and professional players of the game were almost exclusively played by "European Americans" until the 1960s (as with many other sports). It provides no tool for comparison against team complexions in the present day, or, considering the uptake of basketball in China, what it could be in the future.- choster (talk) 15:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But 'white' and 'european descent' are different. Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white. Occuli (talk) 14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But it's clear that the creator intends to gloss over that distinction.- choster (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * White people are generally, though not totally, considered of European descent. I understand the exceptions regarding official US classifications raised above, but they can be broadly be construed as the same. Black and African American are not the same either and almost no African Americans can actually trace their ancestry to Africa. However, Brian Scalabrine is aware of his Italian ancestry and thus European heritage. He also happens to be White as well. The One-drop rule in the US has poisoned the way we look at race and ancestry and I see no need to follow that rule on Wikipedia.--TM 15:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:American basketball players. Before even considering categorization, I would like to see (1) a WP article written about this group; and (2) the WP article survive an AFD. I too am not that fond of ; I think it is appropriate to categorize sportspeople by nationality and occasionally by ethnicity, but not by intersections of the two. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Louisville Cardinals basketball venues

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Louisville Cardinals basketball venues to Category:Louisville Cardinals men's basketball venues
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. I've created a new category for U of L women's basketball venues because that team has used many more venues than have the men. According to the 2010–11 women's media guide, the women have used no fewer than 11 different venues from their inception in 1975 through 2010, with the new KFC Yum! Center being the 12th. Dale Arnett (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bravo television series

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bravo television series to Category:Bravo (U.S.) television series
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. There's more than one television channel called Bravo. Lafe Smith (talk) 02:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiProject Backpacking Templates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:38, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:WikiProject Backpacking Templates to Category:WikiProject Backpacking templates
 * Nominator's rationale: Name standardization. — This, that, and the other (talk) 01:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.