Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 November 22



Category:Nobility of the Americas

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:Titles of nobility in the Americas. Ruslik_ Zero 19:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Nobility of the Americas to Category:Noble jurisdictions of the Americas
 * Nominator's rationale: This category has become seriously misused, and there is an apparent misunderstanding as to its purpose. It was originally nominated at CFDS to have Category:American nobility merged into it - but these two categories are in entirely seperate trees. This category was then proposed for renaming (to the current target) to fit its tree, but that was objected to because "The category is being used for nobility not noble jurisdictions. If you want a separate category for the jurisdictions, simply create one and put relevant articles in it." The trouble is this category is for noble jurisdictions, Category:American nobility is for nobility of the Americas. The Bushranger One ping only 23:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm not aware of any noble jurisdictions in the Americas. Noble jurisdiction is a medieval concept that doesn't apply to any Native American or Colonial culture as far as I know.
 * Can this and the related discussions be resolved by (1) moving this category to "Titles of nobility of the Americas" (2) moving American nobility to "Nobility of the Americas" and (3) moving inappropriately categorised articles from one to the other? DrKiernan (talk) 11:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Rename but to Category:Titles of nobility in the Americas, rather as suggested by DrKiernan. The Americas is two continents not a country, so that "of" is not appropriate.  "Jurisdictions" is inappropriate, because that would make it about the polities awarding titles, not the titles themsleves.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine by me. DrKiernan (talk) 17:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: Please also close Categories for discussion/Log/2011 November 23 in a consistent manner. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * and Categories for discussion/Log/2011 November 23 is related as well. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Samuelson films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 December 12. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Samuelson films to ONE OF TWO OPTIONS BELOW
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. There are two options to rename: 1. (per G. B. Samuelson; place in ) 2.  (per G.B. Samuelson Productions; place in ) The only disadvantage of #2 is that some of the films were produced under the name British-Super Films. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Members of The Leadership Council

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Ruslik_ Zero 18:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * members of the leadership council


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. There is no article about The Leadership Council. I don't think being a member of a borderline non-notable organization is defining for an individual, so we don't need to categorize by it. An article about the organization would be a better place to start. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose: There is now an article about The Leadership Council on Wikipedia. It is a notable organisation, whose research has been referred to in a number of reputed independent sources. Its members are also influential public figures. They have chosen to be actively part of a research body, which is both defining and relevant to them. I support this category. However, I am new to Wikipedia, so please do advise otherwise. Thanks. Wikiguru9549 (talk) 10:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete If its members are influential public figures, by definition they are deriving their notability elsewhere. We don't have, for some better-known examples, Category:Members of the World Economic Forum or Category:Members of the Trilateral Commission which would certainly be more prominent. Incidentally, a lot of Category:Categories named after think tanks of the United States looks like it needs a strong purge. Margaret Thatcher has no business in Category:Heritage Foundation, nor Timothy Geithner in Category:Group of Thirty.- choster (talk) 18:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nobility of Luxembourg

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. We could do a reverse merge, but in all respects  would be eligible for speedy renaming to standardize it within the subcategories of . If editors do not like "Luxembourgian", then as the nominator points out the tree needs to be nominated. This very narrow discussion is not the place to deal with that broad issue. For now the tree uses "Luxembourgian", so that's what we use here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Nobility of Luxembourg to Category:Luxembourgian nobility
 * Nominator's rationale: There seems to be some attempt here to be more inclusive of non-Luxembourgian nobles by splitting the categories, but it's too fine a distinction for clarity's sake. A hatnote should suffice for the outliers, if they are included.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 14:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose The usual term for people from Luxembourg is Luxemburger or Luxembourgeois. Luxembourgian is an ugly neologism that should be changed throughout this category tree to something more recognisable. DrKiernan (talk) 11:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, so nominate the category tree. But this nomination is about having two categories for the same thing.--Mike Selinker (talk) 14:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd agree to merge "Luxembourgian nobility" into "Nobility of Luxembourg" but not the other way round. DrKiernan (talk) 16:53, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * REverse merge which will remove the question of what the right adjective should be. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Archaeology of East Anglia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * archaeology of east anglia


 * Nominator's rationale: Not all the articles in Category:Archaeology of East Anglia relate to the Anglo-Saxon period, in spite of the note on the category page. I have created Category:Archaeology of the kingdom of East Anglia for the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of East Anglia. The modern East Anglia does not need an archaeology category; non-Anglo-Saxon archaeology in the region should simply be categorised under the relevant county. The CFD category also reverses the direction of inclusion by being a subcat of the relevant county cats like Category:Archaeology of Norfolk. jnestorius(talk) 12:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete -- The Earl is not archaeology, but history. Several of the others are in Norfolk and duly categorised.  Anything left should be in Category:Archaeology of Suffolk, which may need to be created.  The normal split for subjects like this is by county.  East Anglia was an Anglian kingdom, and is a modern region that may be somewhat larger than the kingdom.  Accordingly thescope of the category is ambiguous.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Caves of Belize, Guatemala

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Speedy C2C. The Bushranger One ping only 20:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose merging (or renaming)


 * Category:Caves in Belize to Category:Caves of Belize
 * Category:Caves in Guatemala to Category:Caves of Guatemala
 * Landforms including caves, like most of the Category:Caves by country, are of not in. Hugo999 (talk) 11:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy C2C - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:User:Lumastan

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * user


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete Category created by . It currently contains only a template (of dubious value but that's another issue) and Lumastan has also tried to include an article he created. In any case this is clearly doesn't match the WP:CAT definition of a valid Wikipedia category. Pichpich (talk) 10:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete - The Bushranger One ping only 18:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy delete There is plenty of precedent for this. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Creator's rationale: I just made it because I thought it would be helpful, because when I create more articles, would it not be an easy way to see other articles if the reader enjoyed it? But if not, then go ahead with it, its fine with me:) {Lumastan (talk) 03:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)}
 * If every editor similarly started categorizing the articles to which he's contributed significantly, we would get a complete mess. It's true that you created the article but you don't own it and since anyone can edit any article, it's quite possible that a year from now your contribution to the article will be barely noticeable. Pichpich (talk) 14:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete/speedy delete per extensive precedent against these type of categories. VegaDark (talk) 20:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sppedy delete if possible. The objective ought to be acheived by him placing the articles on his watch list.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Water landings

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Water landings to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents involving ditching
 * Propose renaming Category:Commercial airline water landings to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving ditching
 * Nominator's rationale: While the putative main article is at water landing, ditching redirects there - and is the subject of this category, as the article includes by-design water landings, which, happening by design, aren't especially categorizable. When a water landing is made as part of a crash, though, it's a ditching - so this category should reflect that. Using "involving" for the connecting phrase as the ditching is the result of the accident, not the cause (same as for the CFIT category under the parent cat). The Bushranger One ping only 08:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Floatplanes "land" on water all the time, so yes, something is necessary here... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support LaGuardia has a Marine Air Terminal, where the Clipper flying boats used to land regularly on the water for scheduled passenger service, so water landing was a common trait previously. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 07:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support I created the cat - no objections as the proposed name is better. Socrates2008 ( Talk ) 08:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * REname but not as nom. All these appear to be about crashlandings on water.  How about Merge both to Category:Aircraft crashlanding on water?  The category is not about seaplane landings, as far as I can see.  If "ditching" is a redirect it ought not to be used for the category.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Except "crashlanding on water" is not a term that is ever used - "ditching" is. I'll see what I can do about turning "ditching" into an article all on its own over the next couple of days. Also, the category trees are "Aviation accidents and incidents..." and "Airliner accidents and incidents..." so those need to be included in the name. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by intentional disregard for a standard operating procedure by pilot

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge per nom. Ruslik_ Zero 18:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by intentional disregard for a standard operating procedure by pilot to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by pilot error (see comment below)
 * Nominator's rationale: The less said about this category's existing name, the better. Suggesting rename rather than upmerge because separating airline from non-airline (The Day the Music Died) pilot error accidents seems logical. The Bushranger One ping only 04:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC) see comment at 04:11 on the 26th for rationaile. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Occuli (talk) 11:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that this category should be kept, but renamed - the current title is a rather cumbersome, verbose title! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pilot error ≠ intentional disregard. Not necessarily, anyway. I haven't the time nor interest to go through the articles to see if such a claim would be supported anyway -- but just pointing out that the rename would change the meaning, as well... would it not? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess if a pilot intentionally disregards SOPs and then an accident results, the pilot made an "error" in choosing to disregard the SOPs. But I think intuitively there is something slightly different in the formulation of the two. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Intentional disregard of operating procedures" is, I believe, generally classed as "Pilot error" by the NTSB - the procedures are there for a reason, and they made an error in disregarding them. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that. Interesting how the logic works: there is no such thing as a mere error or lapse in judgement: it's always called an intentional disregard of SOP, because the SOP is designed to eliminate the chance of any human error. Makes sense, I guess. I know a commercial pilot and I must remember to ask him, just for my own curiosity.... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Rename, on the assumption that they are one and the same per the discussion above. It is much more manageable as a name. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment criminal pilot activity is not the same as pilot error. The NTSB does not classify pilot suicide murdering the passengers of a passenger jet with pilot error. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 07:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but then that wouldn't be "ignoring standard operating procedures", that would be an intentional crash. Note that three of the four articles currently in the cat are clear pilot-error cases, while the fourth is kids-in-the-cockpit - a severe judgement error if nothing else! - The Bushranger One ping only 08:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: After looking over some things, and seeing that this category includes 4 articles, while Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by pilot error has 186 pages, I believe it might be best to speedy-rename the latter category to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by pilot error (as it is already a subcat of Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners, and virtually all of its content is airliner crashes), and then merge this into it. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That category now moved, so...the above merger proposal is now the 'official' suggestion. - The Bushranger One ping only 16:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:User page images

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Speedy merge (C2C). The Bushranger One ping only 09:32, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:User page images to Category:Wikipedian images
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge The two categories appear to have the very same scope. Pichpich (talk) 04:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:In-flight airliner loss of all engines

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by engine failure; if there's a desire to have a subcategory for those caused by failure of all engines, then that could be created, but it might be overkill. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:In-flight airliner loss of all engines to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by failure of all engines
 * Nominator's rationale: The current name for this category is...well, it's descriptive, but somehow not quite suitable, I think, and doesn't fit the category tree at all. The proposed target does, but I'm not completely happy with it - I'm open to suggestions if somebody can think of a better one. The Bushranger One ping only 01:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Suggest Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving engine failure. There could be a subcat (if needed) for 'all' engines lost. Occuli (talk) 11:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm. That...is actually a good idea, possibly. Although might be better to create that cat afresh and rename this one under it. (Subcategorise it under Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by mechanical failure?) - The Bushranger One ping only 17:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not all engine failures are mechanical - bird strike, volcanic ash etc might be better just to leave it as Occuli suggested. MilborneOne (talk) 19:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what you mean there, since he didn't suggest leaving it...? - The Bushranger One ping only 19:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was trying to support the use of Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving engine failure! MilborneOne (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, gotcha. :) - The Bushranger One ping only 22:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Neutral Meh. This is the neverending issue of brief vs verbose. As the one who created the category, I can say it was worded to fit the brief style of other similar existing categories at the time. The new suggestion is indeed equivalent meaning, but just a different style, not a compelling difference.  There are now subcategories of Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners worded briefly or verbosely.  Unless you're going to write a guideline and make them all consistent with it, then changing one is just a gratuitous style quibble. Ikluft (talk) 21:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * All the categories that are not in the "Airliner accidents and incidents caused by/involving foo" format, are in the process of being changed to that format. Most are at WP:CFD/S, but a couple (such as this one) were more siginficant changes so required a full discussion. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If so, that really should have been included in the rationale. I remain neutral, as in don't care either way. Ikluft (talk) 21:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose "involving" is about a weasely word one could choose. Nearly all hull losses would fall into this category - unless one can show that at least one engine was salvaged (rare, no doubt), because nearly all "involve" the the engines not running (perhaps after highspeed impact with the ground), but they do stop eventually and not with an "off" switch. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And that is where WP:COMMONSENSE comes in. But what about Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by failure of all engines/Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by engine failure? - The Bushranger One ping only 00:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Either of those would be preferable, of course. As the cause is the thing. And as for WP:COMMONSENSE; it's an essay not gospel. If a category is defined broadly by its title, I would expect to see all things within the category to be placed there, because whatever was meant by the category creator is not binding on any category reader; just as someone who creates a category for all things they love about their favorite football team, product, corporation, cannot later exclude inclusion of all the faults, scandals, and failings of the subject from the category...in a vain echo of the NY Times' motto: "all the articles that fit, we include." Precision is important. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - in that case, "caused by" instead of "involving", it is. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment -- too verbose. It is about failure of all engines, not just failure of (an) engine.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, with the exception of two categories - the water landing/ditching one up for renaming above, and the one for shot-down airliners that is an outlier due to fitting the pattern of a seperate naming tree - all other subcategories of Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners are in the naming format "Airliner accidents and incidents involving/caused by foo". (Which makes me realise the main cat should probably be renamed to Category:Airliner accidents and incidents?). So Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by failure of all engines, while perhaps verbose, both describes the category scope and fits the category tree pattern. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.