Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 August 9



Category:Proposed railway stations scheduled to open in 2011

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting proposed railway stations scheduled to open in 2011


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Obviously these apparently did not open. Most have no references so the category could be removed as not being supported by the article text.  Another option would be to Upmerge to Category:Proposed railway stations scheduled to open in 2012. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * upmerge all proposed stations by year categories to Category:Proposed railway stations As anyone who has ever paid attention to this sort of planning knows, it's common for stations that are already under construction to slip schedule or even be abandoned uncompleted. If construction hasn't even started, it's always safe to assume that the date of opening is unrealistic. I tend to believe that we should not have articles on stations which haven't begun construction, but in any case categorizing them by the hoped-for year of opening is a clear-cut transgression against WP:CRYSTAL. Mangoe (talk) 10:41, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * One advantage of the by year categories is that it allows someone to cleanup a bunch of articles every year. An upmerge to Category:Proposed railway stations makes that cleanup more difficult. Having said that, I don't think that this small benefit is worth keeping the categories.  I would support your proposed upmerge, maybe after some cleanup on the 2011 contents. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I would prefer not to have these articles at all, per WP:CRYSTAL. SO we may be off to a mass WP:AFD nomination... Mangoe (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Noting the discussions below, it seems like the better option for 2011 is Delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete as obsolete, but manually empty first. Either the stations opened as scheduled and can be recategorised to "stations opened in 2011", or they failed to open and need to be recategorised to their new target date.  If contruction has not even started, there should be no article as WP:CRYSTAL applies.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I pretty much agree with Peterkingiron, except for the part about deleting articles as WP:CRYSTAL. This looks like something that can you can jump to conclusions about too quickly. I'm sure some of you already know I brought the issue of this category up in the TWP Talk page. If however we decide to do as Mangoe suggested, they should really be sent to some of the regoinal categories instead(i.e; Proposed railway stations in Europe, North America, etcetera). DanTD (talk) 23:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, no by continent categories! Vegaswikian (talk) 06:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete (after manually emptying it). I have started on that.  The one railway station I did was actually opened in 2012.  This makes me think that we should not do anticipated year of opening categories at all.  I hate to make Vegaswikian sad, but we already have by continent categories for proposed railway station, with by country categories as well.  I am not sure why.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Observation; - There are still seven stations in this category, six of which are based in The Netherlands, and the other in Scotland. Since all have country categories attached it would be pointless to replace them with continent categories. I really wish I knew where else we can look to update the status of these stations, so we can make the deletion process easier. --DanTD 21:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Merge to Category:Proposed railway stations in Europe. All remaining articles are in Europe: in the Netherlands and already categorised as Category:Proposed railway stations in the Netherlands.  I remain unhappy with this annual classification, but this is not the place to rectify that.  The real solution is for some one to discover the present status of the stations and recategorise them accordingly.  I have removed Gogar station, the non-Dutch case which this implies is still at the planning stage, and so has no scheduled opening date.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:NBC Sports Regional Networks

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Redirected to Category:Comcast SportsNet. Jafeluv (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting nbc sports regional networks


 * Nominator's rationale: Category is redundant. NBC Sports Regional Networks is another name for Comcast SportsNet which already has a category. Hirolovesswords (talk) 21:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Gah, what a mess. From what I can tell, this category was created today by a user who then moved all the contents from the Comcast SportsNet category to it out of process. Which has now been cleaned up, leaving the NBCSRN category empty. Given that it was empty I've gone ahead and made it a category redirect to, which I suggest retaining and closing this as already cleaned up. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:01, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


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Category:TCP/IP

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Internet protocols.--Mike Selinker (talk) 05:26, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Old proposal

 * Propose renaming Category:TCP/IP to Category:Transmission Control Protocol or Category:TCP (Original nomination Withdrawn, in support for jc37's new proposal below -- intgr [talk] 00:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC))
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. People sometimes use the term "TCP/IP" to refer to the whole Internet protocol suite (which is as vague as it can get). But as it stands, nearly all pages in this category are exclusively about Transmission Control Protocol (TCP). All the other bases are already covered with Category:Internet Protocol (for IP-specific stuff) and Category:Internet protocols (for articles about "the Internet protocol suite"). If there's any doubt, multiple of the aforementioned categories may be used for a page. This rename was also proposed by someone on Category talk:TCP/IP. -- intgr [talk] 18:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I see no strong reason to upmerge the cat from TCP/IP to TCP. For the rename from TCP to Transmission Control Protocol though, that's a real rejection of WP:COMMONNAME. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (Deleted earlier comment, sorry I misunderstood your reply)
 * Personally I don't care if it's renamed to "TCP" or "Transmission Control Protocol". I chose the latter because that's how the main article is called, though I agree it fails WP:COMMONNAME. But as it stands, the name "TCP/IP" is a misnomer and mostly overlaps with Category:Internet protocols. -- intgr [talk] 08:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The "IP" in "TCP/IP" doesn't stand for "Internet protocols", it stands for "Internet Protocol", which is different. IP is just one clearly-defined member of the many protocols covered by Category:Internet protocols. All of these names are historical, not our choice.
 * TCP is one protocol, in contrast to UDP, that is used on top of IP. It's only ever used over IP (exceptions to this are literally exceptional). TCP also outweighs UDP in terms of traffic and programmer effort. So its historical use has been that the general everyday term used for doing transport-level coding work on teh internets has been "TCP/IP". This may not be strictly accurate, but that's language use for you. It doesn't imply that a Category:TCP/IP is trying to cover every Internet protocol (small p) out there. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why does the TCP/IP article redirect to Internet protocol suite? Why is that the "main page" of the category? The fact that we're having this conversation is evidence that "TCP/IP" is a confusing term and should not be used. You never hear anyone talk about "UDP/IP" for instance.
 * Try searching for "TCP/IP" on Google. Most of the top results are not specific to TCP -- they're general pages about the network protocol stack. In contrast, nearly all articles in Category:TCP/IP are specific to TCP and not the rest of the stack -- they are pages about TCP extensions, TCP congestion control algorithms, TCP quirks, TCP implementation techniques, etc. -- intgr [talk] 15:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose The phrase "TCP/IP" has been used by the Internet technical community to refer to the family of Internet protocols for many years. It is confusing, but its way too late to change the use of the phrase now. Renaming the existing category to "Transmission Control Protocol", a name that covers just one of the many protocols in the family, is inappropriate. A move of all of the items from the "TCP/IP" category to the "Internet protocol suite" category and making "TCP/IP" into a redirect to the "Internet protocol suite" category would be a better change. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 18:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What you say is true, but misses the point of the rename. Please refer to the nomination and state which parts you are disagreeing with.
 * There already is a category for "the family of Internet protocols", it's called Category:Internet protocols -- do you disagree that these are overlapping categories? Do you think we need two overlapping categories?
 * Do you disagree that nearly all articles in Category:TCP/IP are really about TCP? Do you disagree that the remaining few outliers fit into Category:Internet protocols or Category:Internet Protocol?
 * Do you disagree that we need a category for TCP-specific articles? -- intgr [talk] 07:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we need the three overlapping categories that we already have: Internet protocols, Internet Protocol (because of its prominence for addressing issues) and also TCP/IP (because that's where the majority of coding work is focussed). Andy Dingley (talk) 10:55, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. But can you help to come up with a clearer criteria for this category? "that's where the majority of coding work is focussed" isn't very clear.
 * The best I can come up with is "anything related to Internet standards (especially IETF standards) from link layer and above, that is used for IP networking" -- it seems that IP is the key element. Does that sound good?
 * Then, per WP:SUBCAT, several other categories would become subcats of Category:TCP/IP and articles would be moved accordingly. I have a draft plan at Category talk:TCP/IP -- any feedback welcome. -- intgr [talk] 14:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd disagree with pretty much all of the subcategorization there. Particularly Ethernet as a subcategory of TCP/IP! If you want subcats here, just make them all subcats (although not Ethernet!) of Internet protocols. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your refusal to be helpful. It's not about "[me wanting] subcats here", it's about improving Wikipedia.
 * As it stands now, Category:TCP/IP is a small collection of arbitrary articles -- which is totally expected from a concept as vague as "the Internet protocol suite". In order to make sense of a category, it needs some criteria to go by, to decide which articles belong and which don't. If you disagree with the criteria I proposed above, please collaborate on making a better one.


 * I admit I could have been clearer about this: Category talk:TCP/IP lists only those subcategories because I went through all the articles currently in Category:TCP/IP and assigned them to better places. If you say those don't belong in TCP/IP then guess what -- that means the TCP/IP category is currently a mess.
 * In particular, I put Category:Ethernet is there because that's where Netgear NSDP and Bonjour Sleep Proxy belong -- certainly they're even less related to TCP/IP than Ethernet is.


 * Do you at least agree on the Category:TCP part, so we can get that out of the way? -- intgr [talk] 15:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that having the two categories "Internet protocols" and "TCP/IP" is confusing. I think we should merge them into a single category and that "TCP/IP" should be a synonym for "Internet protocols". I don't see a need for a separate "TCP" category. I would just move everything that is now in the "TCP/IP" category into the existing "Internet protocols" category. I'm fine with keeping the "Internet protocol" category as is. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think that creating more subcategories is always helpful, particularly when the typical Wikipedia reader doesn't understand the differences between the subcategories. Few Wikipedia readers understand the difference between TCP and UDP or between TCP and IP. Having the content articles split up across many subcategories enforces a sort of tunnel vision on people and can make it harder for them to find what they are looking for. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well one problem with that is, that Category:Internet protocols is quite crowded already. It has 275 articles currently and this makes finding something from the category pretty unlikely. It also has the "diffusion" tag, which suggests not adding more articles to that cat and to move its current articles into subcategories. I drafted out a plan to for moving articles from "TCP/IP" here: Category talk:TCP/IP. What do you think?
 * The other reason is that there are tens of articles on Wikipedia, which are deeply specific to TCP (also listed in the above link -- though that list is not complete). I believe putting them in the generic "Internet protocols" category is misleading -- they are not protocols on their own, but just extensions/techniques/phenomena of the TCP protocol. -- intgr [talk] 13:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "crowded" doesn't trump "accuracy". - jc37 22:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

New proposal

 * Merge Category:TCP/IP to Category:Internet protocols per Jeff Ogden (W163). Create Category:Transmission Control Protocol per nom, as a subcat of Category:Internet protocols, and split only as appropriate, at editorial discretion, per the discussion above. It seems clear from the discussion that using the abbreviations (TCP or TCP/IP) would be vague in this case. - jc37 22:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I support the merge proposal by User:jc37 above. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 22:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support jc37's merge. -- intgr [talk] 00:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment While I support this idea in principle, about 90% of the articles in this category seem to concern TCP&mdash;and we're talking about some pretty obscure topics like specific implementations of TCP and congestion control algorithms here. So the original proposal, renaming the category to Category:Transmission Control Protocol, and then selective moving some of the articles to Category:Internet protocols would be less work than the other way around. —Ruud 18:48, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Since we all basically agree with this approach and it's been a week since the last comment, I will go ahead and create Category:Transmission Control Protocol and start moving articles over. -- intgr [talk] 07:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, since the "editorial discretion" part seems done already, all that seems left to do is for the closer to close this, and merge what's left at Category:TCP/IP to Category:Internet protocols. - jc37 19:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:48 Hours Mystery correspondents

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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. The Bushranger One ping only 00:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 48 hours mystery correspondents


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Overcategorization of people by the TV series in which they appeared. 68.190.166.40 (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


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Princeton College alumni

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Speedy merge C2C. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge Category:Princeton College alumni to Category:Princeton University alumni
 * Nominator's rationale this is a name change, that did not change the level of categorization of the alumni. There is no precedent for having two categories when the institutions both were general tertiary level institutions of education.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Speedy merge as these are the same institution just with a different name. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


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Category:Yellow Pages

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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. This category covers more than the trademarked "Yellow Pages," so should be decapitalized. It would be possible to make a subcategory of this just for the official ones.--Mike Selinker (talk) 22:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Yellow Pages to Category:Yellow pages
 * Nominator's rationale: per recent move of main article. Jafeluv (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose The phrase "Yellow Pages" is widely used as a trademark and proper noun, and should be capitalised accordingly. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Moving from speedy to regular CFD since this was opposed. Jafeluv (talk) 06:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. There is no reason, why the category shouldn't follow it's main article, which was renamed after unanimous consensus at a requested move discussion. Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0  06:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So an overlooked WP rename on one article's talk page and with only half-a-dozen contributors is now a RS precedent for all time?
 * There are several pages involved here. List of Yellow Pages, Golden Pages, Southwestern Bell Yellow Pages are just a handful. The images on this article page show Yellow Pages directories with "Yellow Pages" clearly on the spine. Despite this one rename, the vast majority of our content and sources are using the proper noun form. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In many cases it is indeed a proper name. From what I understand from the discussion and the contents of the category, Golden Pages and Southwestern Bell Yellow Pages are both names of specific directories and therefore are correctly capitalized. In the UK, "Yellow Pages" is used as a proper name when referring to the UK-specific British Telecom directory. However, as a general term, when talking about all such directories, "yellow pages" is a common name. List of Yellow Pages should probably also be uncapitalized. Jafeluv (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep both names function as proper and thus should be capitalized.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename - The category covers the common noun sense of the term not its proper name sense. If it covered just Yellow Pages items then we should keep the name but it currently covers many other generic yellow pages items that would not belong to a Yellow Pages category.  Joja  lozzo  14:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


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Category:G.I. Joe stubs

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: result. The Bushranger One ping only 00:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting g.i. joe stubs


 * Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. Undersized - only 9 stubs. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose: This category has been nominated for deletion twice before. It remains, because there is no one category that all the stubs can be upmerged to. G.I. Joe stubs is a sub-category of Animation stubs, Comics stubs, and Toy stubs, but not all G.I. Joe stub articles fall into all of those categories. Fortdj33 (talk) 06:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


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Category:Aerial robots

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 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Aerobots. There's not consensus to upmerge, but there is consensus to at least match the head article.--Mike Selinker (talk) 05:40, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Aerial robots to Category:Unmanned aerial vehicles
 * Propose renaming Category:Aerial robots to Category:Aerobots
 * Nominator's rationale: Essentially, this is a duplicate category - UAVs are aerial robots (as Aerobot itself says) and, by definition, aerial robots will always be UAVs. The Bushranger One ping only 01:20, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment an aerial robot is not synonymous with unmanned, it is only synonymous with optionally piloted/unpiloted, which is not the same as not having an onboard crew or passengers. Some of the proposed personal air vehicles are completely computer piloted, but still have passengers. -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 04:00, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aerobot, the main article for the category, pretty much explicitly says UAV is a synonym. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The category is "aerial robot" not "aerobot" though. So whatever an aerobot is, is not the same as an aerial robot. Indeed, that article seems to indicate an aerobot is a type of aerial robot. -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 04:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it should be renamed "Aerobots" and used to classify the...er...more robotic of aerial robots vs. UAVs? - The Bushranger One ping only 04:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That works for me (subcategory). -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 05:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Alrighty then, proposal changed up top. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:04, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Aerobots per main article. Aerobot and unmanned aerial vehicle are distinct articles, which speaks against merging this to the UAV category, although I'm not sure how much overlap there is between the two terms. Jafeluv (talk) 12:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Upmerge as originally sugested. The things are not the same, but this category only has three articles in it, so I see no reason to keep it at the present.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


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Category:STOL aircraft

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 * The result of the discussion was: keep. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting stol aircraft


 * Nominator's rationale: This is a recreation of Category:STOL, which was deleted last year. The Bushranger One ping only 01:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * keep STOL aircraft is an entirely proper categorization with reader value and definable membership conditions. This was previously deleted (by the same nominator) on the grounds that it was 'indefinable'. Yet are we to also AfD STOL and List of STOL aircraft? If definition is so impossible, then these ought to go too. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "STOL aircraft" is not definable to the point of categorisation. At what point does a short takeoff run become STOL? And please mind the WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - 1. perfectly useful and relevant cat. 2. not the same name as previously deleted cat. 3. discussion last year in any case did not have a single reply, and the nominator was the same. 4. If the topic is defineable and notable enough to have WP articles then it is not too amorphous for a cat.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. WP:ITSUSEFUL. 2. Not the same name but precisely the same scope. 3. So? 4. Clearly not the case as a perusal of the CfD archives will show. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. If the nominator's concerns about it becoming undefinable actually manifest, then it can be used as a parent category and subcategories can be used to more precisely specify membership criteria. -NorsemanII (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What more precise criteria, though? There aren't any - that's the whole point. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete doesnt add any value and doesnt actually have any aircraft in it anyhow and not something that is really of help so it is unlikely that STOL is a defining atribute. MilborneOne (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep -- This is a notable characteristic. The number of items in List of STOL aircraft makes it clear that it can be well-populated.  However the abbreviation should be covered in a head note.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * STOL capability is insufficently defining for categorisation. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


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Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge both as nominated. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:37, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement to Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
 * Propose merging Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II prototypes to Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no need for seperate WP:SMALLCATs seperate from the main category here, containing only three articles in the first case, and in the second - after removing the miscategorised Boeing X-32 which was not a F-35 prototype - only one. The Bushranger One ping only 00:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep- In what possible way is WP improved by this? Although I can see a case for now merging Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II prototypes, since it now only contains a single article and it is unlikely more will be created to go into it,  Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement contains three, and more are likely to be created in the future.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * merge both as proposed The procurement articles boggle me anyway, as the article on Canadian procurement alone is nearly as long as the article on the plane itself. Be that as it may, there are only three articles in the main category; the break out into subcategories is unnecesary. Mangoe (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the way the F-35 programme has proceeded, the amazing thing is that the procurement articles aren't longer! - The Bushranger One ping only 22:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge both the procurement articles are children of the main F-35 article so dont really need a separate cat unless we create a procurement tree in the future, which is unlikely. The prototype cat doesnt really help anybody. MilborneOne (talk) 18:48, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge -- One category should be sufficient. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge there is no point to having such precise naming of categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


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Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II engines

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting lockheed martin f-35 lightning ii engines


 * Nominator's rationale: We do not categorise engines by aircraft using them. The Bushranger One ping only 00:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * keep Why shouldn't we? It's sourceable and relevant. These aren't off the shelf engines that just happen to be fitted to this aircraft, they're complex engines developed particularly for this program, as part of a weapons system. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * PS - if the category is deleted, the articles should at least be upmerged to the F-35 cat, rather than de-categorized. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Except, as noted, we do not categorise engines by aircraft. At all. And as Mangoe points out, claiming that the engines (well, the F135 anyway) will only be used ever by the F-35 is WP:CRYSTAL. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - Perfectly sensible, citeable, useful and relevant cat. There is no policy reason why we should not have a cat such as this.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Prefer delete, or upmerge to Category:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II A lot of engines get developed first for particular airframes. But at any rate, this is obvious WP:SMALLCAT material; the articles can go into the main category for the plane without crowding it. Mangoe (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete we dont categorise engines by individual use if we did this then Rolls-Royce Merlin would have 42 cats by use, clearly doesnt help and no reason why the F-35 should be a special case. MilborneOne (talk) 18:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete the after production uses of an engine is not a characteristic of an engine.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hydrogen airships

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Keep. Jafeluv (talk) 09:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Hydrogen airships to Category:Airships using hydrogen gas
 * Nominator's rationale: This category is currently somewhat misleading. It's a subcategory of Category:Hydrogen vehicles - which creates the implication that it contains airships powered by hydrogen. What it is, in fact, is airships that used hydrogen as a lifting gas. The proposed name reflects that. It's also awkward - so better names suggested please! The Bushranger One ping only 00:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge with Category: Zepplins. Benkenobi18 (talk) 03:48, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Do not merge with Category: Zeppelins completely unrelated. Several Zepplins used helium. Most hydrogen-lofted airships have nothing to do with Zeppelins. Hyrodgen De Rossier balloons are not even close to being Zeppelins -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 04:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Also strongly oppose any merge - these are not Zeppelins! - The Bushranger One ping only 04:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 'Comment' how about Category:Hydrogen-lofted aerostats ? -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 04:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really - too technical, and I think aerostat is commonly used to refer to static airships these days isn't it?... - The Bushranger One ping only 04:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * keep If sub-categorization is the problem, then fix that, not the name. WP:COMMONNAME would seem to clearly favour "hydrogen airships" or even "hydrogen-filled airships", rather than another of those interminable, clunky wiki-neologisms like "Airships using hydrogen gas". Andy Dingley (talk) 09:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - per WP:COMMONNAME.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:COMMONNAME.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep or rename to Category:Hydrogen-lifted airships. The converse is Category:Helium-lifted airships.  I assume a contributor's "lofted" is a typo.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, "lofted" is the technical term, actually. And now you know! - The Bushranger One ping only 00:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mid-air collisions of military aircraft

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to a) Category:Accidents and incidents involving military aircraft, and b) either Category:Mid-air collisions or Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving mid-air collisions. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:11, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Mid-air collisions of military aircraft to Category:Mid-air collisions involving military aircraft
 * Nominator's rationale: The standard naming format for aviation accidents is "involving", so this is proposed to be moved to that format. Nominated as full instead of speedy because this has the potential to modify the scope of the category (from military aircraft only to including military/civilian midairs). The Bushranger One ping only 00:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * reorganize/maybe upmerge? By my count nearly half the immediate members of Category: Mid-air collisions involve collisions between military planes and civilian flights, the latter mostly airliners. There is also another subcat of Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving mid-air collisions; presumably there could be an "involving general aviation" subcat as well, since that's a sizable fraction of the whole (maybe a third). We could go to an all-"involving" subcategorization, in which case lots of articles would show up in two subcategories (e.g. the many airliner-military accidents); or we could have specific subcats for each combination of participants, so that airliner/military and military/military would be in different categories, both of them under both "military accidents" and "mid-air collisions"; or we could simply put all mid-air collisions in a single category and also categorize them in the appropriate "accidents involving" category. It seems to me that arguments could be made for each of these three solutions; I would agree that the current asymmetry between the airliners and the military planes is wrong, but I'm uncertain as to which way to resolve it. Mangoe (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support rename (including change of scope). We probably should also have Category:Mid-air collisions involving civilian aircraft (making the airliners cat a sub-cat) and hence move most of articles in Category:Mid-air collisions to one/both of the subcats. DexDor (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Doesn't that mean moving large numbers of articles to both subcats, given the many military/civilian collisions? Mangoe (talk) 20:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How about 3 cats below the MAC cat - Category:Mid-air collisions of 2 civilian aircraft, Category:Mid-air collisions of 2 military aircraft and Category:Mid-air collisions of civilian and military aircraft ("of" could be "involving" or "between") ? That would however mean doing something with the airliners cat.  We could continue discussion at Category talk:Mid-air collisions ? DexDor (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose this as WP:OC. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I directed everyone over in the aircraft WP here.... Mangoe (talk) 21:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't have "involving civilian aircraft" categories for accidents. That is presumed to be the case with the main "aircraft" categories" that "airliners" accident-type subcategories are a subcat of. Anything else would be WP:OC. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This still leaves us with airliner and military "involving" categories and a lot of articles that belong in both. I'm not saying that this is a problem; in fact, what I'm looking for is assurance that it isn't a problem. Mangoe (talk) 22:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact, it seems to me that if it matters whether the collision involved military planes or airliners, it's likely that the military/airliner accidents are of special interest. Or to turn it around, if we're just talking about involvement in a general sense, I fail to see why involvement is relevant, and that everything should go in one big collisions category. Mangoe (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The long-standing consensus is that operations by scheduled air services (airlines) are significant enough to be split out on their own, but that all other aviation accidents should be grouped together. If there's to be a change in that, it needs to be discussed at the project level with regards to all the categories, not piecemeal one cat at a time. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been hoping to see some other input on this for several days, but since it does not appear to be forthcoming: I don't understand how the formula you give here helps us out of the problem. If only airliner accidents are separately notable, then the military category should be upmerged, not renamed. If it turns out that the military incidents can be separately categorized, then should there be a separate military/airliner category, or should those accidents fall in both the military and the airliner category? Mangoe (talk) 11:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to an upmerge to Category:Accidents and incidents involving military aircraft and Category:Mid-air collisions. - The Bushranger One ping only 16:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * split/upmerge to Category:Mid-air collisions or Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving mid-air collisions and Category:Accidents and incidents involving military aircraft per discussion above. Mangoe (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with this. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.