Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 July 6



Category:NRHP architects

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: problem addressed by hiding categories. This can be reopened if anyone thinks the problem hasn't been addressed this way.--Mike Selinker (talk) 13:38, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:NRHP architects to Category:Architects of properties listed on the National Register of Historic Places
 * Propose renaming Category:NRHP builders to Category:Builders of properties listed on the National Register of Historic Places
 * Propose renaming Category:NRHP engineers to Category:Engineers of properties listed on the National Register of Historic Places
 * Nominator's rationale: The current names are not particularly meaningful, and they misleadingly suggest that "NRHP" is a subcategory of architect, engineer or builder. The proposed new naming pattern accurately describes the category scope. Orlady (talk) 22:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose The long proposed names are too long and are inaccurate. What is a "builder of a property", anyhow?  The current names are in fact accurate subcategories. -- do  ncr  am  23:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Builders of properties" is exactly what it says on the tin. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To explain, I think of property as in a parcel of real property, i.e. land. It is usually a plot of land with everything on it that is listed on the National Register, rather than a building or object without land.  One doesn't build or design or engineer a property;  one can build or design buildings, structures, or other objects.  The "NRHP architect" category is applied to architects who have gotten credit for designing something in several NRHP-listed properties.  For example a landscape architect might get subsidiary credit on a property where the main architectural credit is to another architect for the centerpiece building, and where the property is a 10.4 acre parcel.  It's not accurate to call any one the architect or the builder of the property.  I think all of the suggested terms don't read well;  i think it is better to give succinct "NRHP architect" or similar and let it be defined more specifically and accurately at the category page. -- do  ncr  am  23:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Yes, for most of us, "property" usually means land -- what lawyers call "real property". However, the National Register of Historic Places uses the word "property" as a general term for every entity listed on the Register, as discussed at National Register of Historic Places property types. --Orlady (talk) 15:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We agree that is specialized jargon; for general readers it seems important to use a general and accurate term or one that at least is not misleading, even if it does not fully define the category all in its name.
 * One further point: architects who have achieved NRHP listings are not necessarily American architects;  there are English and other architects who have one or more NRHP-listed works in America.  So I don't think NRHP architect category should be nested within American architect category. -- do  ncr  am  16:25, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Since you have removed it from that category, can you find another part of the Category:Architects hierarchy where this fits? --Orlady (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems fine to place it just within Category:Architects. Did that just now. -- do  ncr  am  20:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Acronyms should be spelled out whenever possible, and here, it's possible. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Wikipedia is meant to be a worl-wide resource, and these acronyms are not understood worldwide.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:13, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment (voted Oppose above) I don't really care too much;  I am not really a fan of categories at all.  But categories are useful for those interested in a narrow topic to navigate between articles, and those people know what an acronym means.  To reply to the two last !votes above, note that NRHP is spelled out in each article itself, such as a statement that "So-and-so designed numerous buildings that are listed on the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP)" followed by many instances of "NRHP-listed" next to many items in the article.  The tag is not appropriate on an article that does not mention and spell out the term.  So I think the acronym is understood in the articles.  I see the votes adding up in favor of this, however I think the change will hurt every article with a small bit of unnecessary extension at the bottom. -- do  ncr  am  23:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. We don't categorise architects etc. based on what they designed or otherwise worked on, unless their work was in their job title.  There's also no clear standard for saying who qualifies and who doesn't.  Are we going to put Thomas Jefferson in one of these categories, because he's responsible for designing multiple National Register-listed properties?  Either we have no standards at all (definitely a bad idea), or we impose an arbitrary "must have done _____" standard that has consistently failed to get consensus for existence at XFD.  Nyttend (talk) 02:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And by the way, if consensus support keeping categories for these subjects, I'd support the rename proposed by the nominator. As long as these categories exist, we need to spell out the acronym.  Nyttend (talk) 02:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There can be future arguments about inclusion criteria for persons to be included in list-articles about NRHP architects, NRHP builders, and NRHP engineers, but for now it seems most natural for anyone credited by the National Register for an individual NRHP-listed work to be included in these categories. This is very well-defined, very objective.  These categories are complementary (per wp:CLT) to list-articles or list-article sections that can be developed in the future.  For example, see passage about NRHP architects and builders introduced by me just now in lede of List of RHPs in ND, as an example.  It is a specialized list that is appropriate there, and there naturally can be similar lists of architects, builders, engineers in other state-level NRHP articles. -- do  ncr  am  16:25, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Nyttend. If kept, rename per nom.  Vegaswikian (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I am not going to comment on the proposals to delete due to my desire to avoid confrontation with the category creator. --Orlady (talk) 05:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete we do not categorize people in professions by recognition in some organization for their work after their death. While alive these people had no connection to NRHP, most probably dieing before it existed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We can, though. We do categorize winners of various awards after their deaths, e.g. List of Medal of Honor recipients and many corresponding categories.  We do list architects who have works listed on the NRHP, see lede of List of RHPs in ND for one list of 7 North Dakota NRHP architects, and List of NHLs in NY for a list of 20 NY architects compiled. -- do  ncr  am  02:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We do categorize and list bridges that received NRHP recognition long after they were built, e.g. for one state List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in North Dakota and corresponding category Category: Bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in North Dakota. We categorize and list churches that received NRHP recognition, and similarly for many more types of things.  Not exactly the same as the architects, who weren't given the NRHP award explicitly, but still. -- do  ncr  am  03:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I voted Keep above. I would rather that the NRHP be spelled out, if that would satisfy some here.  But if the decision is to delete, however, would the administrator please agree to consult with me first, so that i can capture the information that would be lost if/when the categories are simply deleted from articles.  Currently there are 428 and growing number of architects, not all recorded in my most recent copy of list.  The list is needed for NRHP WikiProject administrative purposes.  This proposal by Orlady, though they attempt to suggest non-confrontation with me, does complicate my work.  The categories have been serving as good complements to Wikiproject work lists of works in progress. -- do  ncr  am  02:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? You simply want to know what's in the categories so that you can save the information offline?  Nyttend (talk) 03:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, simply if they are to be deleted, I want a complete copy of contents of each.
 * There's more going on here that these category deletions proposed would disrupt. Since December 2010 I have been developing articles for NRHP architects, builders, engineers from a working list of the top NRHP ones, with correspondence btwn NRIS spelling vs. wikipedia article names.  (For recent weeks the working list has been visible at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Architects2009a where I have been frequently editing.)  It is a big task to identify correct correspondence and to fill out the list of architects, etc., further.  From November 2011 I have been using the category system to help, and a number of other editors have joined me, in adding Category:NRHP architects, Category:NRHP builders, Category:NRHP engineers to articles;  these categories were all hidden categories, and have been quite helpful already in going back and forth.  A larger purpose is to end a big, thorny problem in new NRHP articles, that of correctly identifying which type a named person is.  That has been a big source of a lot of nasty contention;  I have been working to end that nasty contention by making available a big lookup table of what each one of the persons are most likely to be.
 * A week ago I changed the categories from being hidden, administrative categories, to being visible, which I thought was not too big a change, would provide something useful for readers and would make it easier to use for the development purposes. Orlady instantly pounced upon that to nominate them for deletion here (or rather they started this discussion which could lead to that).  I didn't even try to explain or to ask for them to be kept but changed to hidden.  With Orlady I assume they would give no consideration to the practical impact of her proposal, or even there is positive intent on their behalf to cause disruption of my and others work (sorry, honestly that is my impression).  I perceive that I am dealing with a hateful opponent bent on complicating my work in wikipedia, that's just what it is, there is no rational discussion possible.
 * But also in some past categories discussion, not involving Orlady, I asked for some other category to be kept as a hidden category I think and that was disregarded/dismissed i don't know why, it seemed like inscrutable bureaucratic reasoning here. Maybe the view was that categories are "supposed to" help readers directly, and administrative/development purposes "are simply not allowed" to be valued?  No offense intended to anyone here.  So I didn't even try to ask this time, yet.  For development purposes, though, if the categories were not kept visible, it would nearly as good for me if they are kept but hidden.  If to be deleted, then I at least want copy of the contents identified.
 * Since I am explaining this much, I would really like to ask if the categories could just be changed back to administrative ones, named exactly as they are, to facilitate the wikipedia development process. I am not optimistic because of what-i-perceive-to-be bureaucratic, non-rational reasonings in the past here.  Nyttend, I dunno, can you see what I (and some others) are doing, work-wise, and how deleting the categories is not helpful?  Could you at least support hiding and keeping them?
 * I am pessimistic that you or anyone would actually really try to consider what is going on, from the develpment perspective that I have, though. I am afraid the bureaucratic reaction is that this much is "too much to read", no matter what the consequence of deletion upon ongoing good development work. -- do  ncr  am  04:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF, please. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough for you to say, Bushranger, quite. I was just being honest, both about Orlady who has expressed hatred and been truly horrible for aapproaching 5 years now.  Orlady, during this very proceeding, posted a vile thing, unjustified, which Jimbo summarily deleted from his webpage as an obvious personal attack (against me, to clarify--doncram), for example.  This proceeding was compromised when it started. That editor should not be allowed to open wikiproceedings taking aim against what i do, at all, or without at least disclosing the huge conflict of interest and huge backhistory of hatred demonstrated.  You don't have to know about that, but others have valid reason to view any proceeding like this opened by that editor as one conceived in hatred.  Tho perhaps cloaked otherwise well enough for others not to see.  And not to overstate the frustration vis-a-vis Orlady, i also conceded that I don't view some past CFDs as taking into account development concerns either, which I would not have said if I was just trying to discuss a situation with regular, uninvolved CFD editors.  I do doubt this proceeding can be concluded fairly.  I won't blame you, Bushranger, not compromised by the past evil. -- do  ncr  am  10:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * May I remind you of WP:NPA, Doncram? As for your claims that I have "expressed hatred" of you in the past, the history that I recall is that I told you that when you first accused me of pursuing some sort of campaign against you, I had not even noticed that I had engaged with you in multiple situations, but over time you had succeeded in making me form a personal dislike for you. I can't help the fact that personal attacks tend to arouse negative feelings in the target of the personal attack.
 * As for the subject of this discussion, I started it after I saw one of these categories at the bottom of an article. I did not notice that these had previously been hidden categories, but I did see that they were uncategorized and they had names that did not conform with conventional Wikipedia category naming patterns. Accordingly, I put these into parent categories and I came here to start a renaming discussion. Returning them to hidden status would be a good alternative to renaming them. --Orlady (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Returning them to hidden status would be fine by me.
 * It has not worked well for me in past situations to point out Orlady's practices, but neither does it work well to let it go by, when Orlady lies or makes personal attacks against me. Yes, pointing out a person is making personal attacks or following a general pattern of wiki-hounding is unpleasant, can arguably be considered to be personal attacks, too.  But I will say Orlady is outright lying or being deliberately cleverly deceptive, i.e. evil, in that comment.  Orlady's implication is that Orlady wasn't deliberately following my edits in order to do what predators do, to cause disruption/hurt/damage at low cost to themselves.  Yes, technically it was after Orlady "saw one of these categories", which Orlady would have upon following my edit to the Category:NRHP architects article. -- do  ncr  am  13:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please AGF, Doncram. I consulted my edit history for the period prior to my starting this CfD to refresh my memory on what drew my attention to these categories. It shows that I was cleaning up after a newly discovered sockpuppet of a banned editor, and that one of the last items I cleaned up was related to an article about a house on the National Register. That reminded me that I had looked at the article for the architect to see if the banned editor had been there recently, and I noticed the category with an unusual name. (As it happens, after my discovery of these categories, I failed to dig into the edit history to find some problematic edits that this banned user made a few months back.) I hope your ego will not be crushed by the realization that my life at Wikipedia does not actually revolve around you. --Orlady (talk) 15:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am sorry to others reading this. Orlady, right, I can't prove how you found it.  It would be absurd to suggest--as I think you might be implying--that in your initiating this AFD, you did not know it would affect me and my work.  And, as has been noted in some past horrible discussions, it is reasonable for me to assume bad motivations on your part against me, it is reasonable to assume NOT good faith after a certain point has been far exceeded in a long history involving wiki-hounding and worse.  So, I truly think you should not be the one initiating a challenge on my work;  you are compromised by a conflict of interest.  One can say I started this little off-topic discussion here.  I will try not to continue here, anyhow, will likely not reply to further comments for a while.  Thanks. -- do  ncr  am  15:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Nyttend: There's also no clear standard for saying who qualifies and who doesn't.  Without that, any attempt to populate these categories will be a mess.  If consensus is against deletion, then rename per nom.  --Kbdank71 17:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support conversion back to hidden I agree that acronyms should be rare in reader categories, I agree that the existing formation is problematic, but the proposed alternatives are verbose, and not problem-free. My aversion to acronyms is not so strong in the case of administrative templates, where they are likely to be used primarily by editors familiar with the acronyms. They were created as administrative tools, and are currently being used primarily as administrative tools. While I can image a reader service with a well-crafted label, we don't have one yet. -- SPhilbrick (Talk)  17:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-defining. While we do categorise architects by the types of building they designed, I don't think having designed a building later listed on the NRHP is worth a category. Likewise for builders and engineers. The NRHP listings are for the buildings themselves, not the people who made them. (If kept, I would support changing the names to the extended versions.) Robofish (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Update and request closure Per CFD nominator Orlady's suggestion elsewhere, and in accordance with Orlady's comments eventually above, I just changed the 3 categories back to being hidden, administrative categories and I request that this CFD be closed. The categories have specific administrative usefulness in complementing an active working list and program within WikiProject NRHP.  Within that WikiProject, the identification of, and distinction between, the 3 categories is of really rather huge administrative importance (you could see from its archives).  The categories should not be unhidden without a CFD process.  I hope this will be agreeable enough to someone to close this.  Thanks -- do  ncr  am  20:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This sounds reasonable enough to me. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If these are WikiProject tracking categories, then they should be converted to talk pages. It would be easy enough to do with a bot once Template:WikiProject NRHP has been modified to support three additional parameters—architect, builder and engineer—such that specifying would populate Category:NRHP architects, and likewise for the other two parameters and categories. -- Black Falcon (talk) 00:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What Black Falcon suggests would be fine by me. Implementing that would require programming changes to edit-protected Template:WikiProject NRHP which I personally can't make, and the full conversion process would require a bot run to remove the mainspace categories and add the Talk page changes.  Also, while I said that the is huge administrative importance to the distinctions within WikiProject NRHP, it is also possible that there would be political opposition within WikiProject NRHP against giving architects, engineers, and builders prominence in the WikiProject's tracking systems.  Some have expressed that architects, engineers, builders are only peripherally related to the project and could oppose the tracking system coverage (counter to what I feel is an obvious need, given disputes about how to handle, in the NRHP infobox, the treatment of persons designed as an Architect/Builder/Engineer without distinction in the National Register's NRIS database).  The establishment and current population of Category:NRHP architects, Category:NRHP engineers, and Category:NRHP builders may have gone a long ways towards demonstrating usefulness of what Black Falcon suggests for the WikiProject template, however.  So, I would further agree to supporting that further suggestion, but for the time being the simple reversion to hidden status should suffice. -- do  ncr  am  09:06, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It would need to be a three-stage transition: editing the project banner to accomodate the new parameter(s); adding the parameter to all affected talk pages (510, currently) so as to populate the categories with talk pages; and removing the articles. I can do the first step manually and the second using AutoWikiBrowser (or at least write the request for a bot task), and Cydebot can be prompted to complete the third step. If the addition of three parameters might prompt dissatisfaction, then it is possible to use just one: instead of three new parameters—architect, builder and engineer—that are activated by "=yes", it is possible to add one parameter—let's say ... tracking—that takes values of "=architect", "=builder" and "=engineer". The code would be a bit more complex but the "prominence" of the tracking function would be limited. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:55, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've opened a work/discussion section at Template talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places towards carrying this out. If/when this program is carried out, the existing 3 categories will be emptied, but the categories are needed until then. -- do  ncr  am  09:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In my judgment, this item has been resolved by the conversion to "hidden", so the discussion can be closed. --Orlady (talk) 15:02, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Wayne County, Michigan from sub-cats

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: upmerge. The Bushranger One ping only 01:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge Category:People from Allen Park, Michigan to Category:People from Wayne County, Michigan
 * Merge Category:People from Belleville, Michigan to Category:People from Wayne County, Michigan
 * Nominator's rationale These are both one entry categories. Neither of these cities are or ever have been very large.  There is no reason to have these extremely small sub-cats.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People assasinated by Freemasons

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. The Bushranger One ping only 01:14, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting people assasinated by freemasons


 * Nominator's rationale: Almost unpopulated, and there are very few (if any) legitimate members of this category. William Morgan (anti-Mason) was never established to have actually been killed, Roberto Calvi had too many people gunning for him to be sure who actually murdered him (especially since the only people charged were found not guilty), and so forth. (And it's spelled wrong, too.) SarekOfVulcan (talk)  19:31, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Shouldn't you be declaring an interest here Sarek? Rather bad form for an Admin, no? JASpencer (talk) 21:41, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete I would not be surprised if Joseph Smith would be a contender for this category. However since no one was ever convincted of his murder, the fact that some of his accused assasins may have been freemasons would not be enough to categorize this.  What of the person that Andrew Jackson killed in a duel?  Was that an "assasination" and was Mr. Jackson a freemason at the time?  Categorizing people by a trait of the person who killed them seems questionable.  Do we even have Category:People assasinatied by Serbian nationalists for the well documented case of the assasination of the Austrian Archduke in 1914.  Generally we classify people by who they are, not by what type of other people did things to them.  There may be a few exceptions, but the freemasons one does not seem to be a good one.  Anyway, this category reeks of anti-Masonic bigotry.  What next Category:People killed by Mormons to join the Washington Post in trying to make the 150+ year old Mountain Meadows Massacre into a 2012 election issue.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment the lack of actual categories to put this in suggests this is a truly irregular category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment we have two categories of people assasinated by x, and in each case the listed groups are military in some respect, not at all like the freemasons. Even at that, I am not convinced that Category:People assassinated by the Mossad really is worth having.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Emptied out of process because evidently nobody accepted any of the individual categorizations. I would tend to agree with them. THe evidnece at best is speculative. Mangoe (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete, and I'd support deleting parallel categories: unlike murder-by-spree-killer or criminal-by-executing-government, assassination-victim-by-assassin-by-social-group isn't a defining characteristic of assassination victims. Nyttend (talk) 02:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete -- unless a murderer was convicted AND he is a self-confessed (or proved to be) a Freemason, the inclusion of any person would be a case of Peterkingiron (talk) 23:24, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Logic literature

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Logic literature to Category:Literature about logic
 * Nominator's rationale: Improvement to the grammar. Brad7777 (talk) 17:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The rename would have the same form as Category:Literature about literature. Brad7777 (talk) 17:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - There are about twenty major philosophy categories which each contain a "philosophers" category, a "literature" category, a "concepts" category and a "theories" category. The actual name isn't such a big deal. However, they are all currently consistent with this form. Greg Bard (talk) 17:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * comment The only was to achieve consistency throughout wp, is by this rename, and similar renames for those mentioned, inline with Category:Literature about literature. Brad7777 (talk) 08:51, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Close. Taking a single example from a group and asking for it alone to be renamed isn't helpful.  Please either (1) ask for none of them to be renamed, or (2) renominate this one along with all of the others in a group nomination.  Nyttend (talk) 02:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry Nyttend Brad7777 (talk) 09:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Roman-era philosophers by century

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. PKI's suggestion has merit, but as JPL points out this is a job for /give honeydew 46 1 WP:TNT. The Bushranger One ping only 00:31, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting roman-era philosophers by century


 * Nominator's rationale: An unhelpful split. The sub-cats contain all ancient philosophers, (not just Roman.) Brad7777 (talk) 16:26, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * delete The problem with the way this is working is that Category:1st-century philosophers can in theory contain philosophers working during that time in China or India. A similar categorization would put all 20th century philosophers into a super category Category:American era philosophers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Intersection of non-necessarily intersecting ideas. Sure Rome was around for a period (not just the period encapsulated in the subcats). Yes, it had philosophers (whether Roman or conquered peoples). But not all of 2nd century philosophers (e.g.) had any connection to Rome. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * REname and repupose all subcategories and this one. A category for Graeco-Roman philosophers, by century would be useful, but this needs to be purged of the Chinese and Indians, who should probably be moved into categories respectively for Chinese and Indian philosopers before (say) 500 AD.  I doubt that there are enough of either for a by-century split.  Peterkingiron (talk) 23:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment If we are "renaming and repurposing" we might as well delete this and start under the new name entirely new. That is the best way to avoid incorrect hold ons.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Internal security vehicles of Iraq

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge.--Mike Selinker (talk) 13:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Internal security vehicles of the post–Cold War period to Category:Internal security vehicles
 * Propose merging Category:Internal security vehicles of Iraq to Category:Internal security vehicles
 * Propose merging Category:Internal security vehicles of Pakistan to Category:Internal security vehicles
 * Propose merging Category:Internal security vehicles of the United States to Category:Internal security vehicles
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCATs, and 'orphaned' category trees after Category:Internal security vehicles by country and Category:Internal security vehicles by era were merged into Category:Internal security vehicles in these CfDs. There is currently no need to subcategorise ISVs by era or country, given the small population of the cat and the orphan status of these categories. The Bushranger One ping only 16:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Upmerge these four categories between them have only three articles. Even when we upmerge Category:Internal security vehicles will have less than 10 articles.  Sub-division of that category is clearly pre-mature.  Maybe if it ends up growing significantly it will be worth dividing, but not yet.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:Internal security vehicles all parents - I concur with the above assessments of the current need for subdivision of Category:Internal security vehicles. That being said, however, it is necessary to upmerge to both parents so that the articles are not removed from the corresponding country-level Armoured fighting vehicles of Foo category trees. -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've ensured they're all in the appropriate AFV categories. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:16, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks! -- Black Falcon (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Children of the Prime Ministers of Thailand

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. The Bushranger One ping only 01:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Children of the Prime Ministers of Thailand to Category:Children of Prime Ministers of Thailand
 * Category:Children of the Prime Ministers of Canada to Category:Children of Prime Ministers of Canada
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of Argentina to Category:Spouses of Presidents of Argentina
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of Austria to Category:Spouses of Presidents of Austria
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of India to Category:Spouses of Presidents of India
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of Israel to Category:Spouses of Presidents of Israel
 * Category:Spouses of the Prime Ministers of Israel to Category:Spouses of Prime Ministers of Israel
 * Category:Spouses of the Prime Ministers of Malaysia to Category:Spouses of Prime Ministers of Malaysia
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of Peru to Category:Spouses of Presidents of Peru
 * Category:Spouses of the Presidents of the Philippines to Category:Spouses of Presidents of the Philippines


 * Nominator's rationale: Contested speedy. I think grammatically the article "the" shouldn't be in the names of these categories. "Presidents" and "Prime Ministers" here don't refer to any single president or prime minister, nor to all the presidents or prime ministers of any country. The resulting discrepancy with articles (e.g. in the case of Category:Children of Prime Ministers of Canada vs Children of the Prime Ministers of Canada) should be acceptable because the list article discusses all the children of all the Prime Ministers of Canada, while the category describes each individual as a child of any single Prime Minister of Canada. Paul_012 (talk) 14:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename, good argument --CMD (talk) 06:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pavements

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. There was no real opposition to the proposal to merge Category:Pavement engineering but also no real discussion of or support for it. I recommend re-nominating the categories separately, perhaps after attempting to form a consensus (or, at least, generate interest) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Transport or elsewhere—Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Civil engineering would be suitable but it appears to be an inactive talk page. -- Black Falcon (talk) 00:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Pavements to Category:Pavement


 * Later addition: Propose merging Category:Pavement engineering – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. Pavements reads a bit odd in American English. Also as currently implemented, it is not restricted to types of pavement, which the title might imply.  It includes equipment used to make various pavement, uses, materials and markings, things having to do with pavement.  If we want to categorize the types of pavement, then the subcategory Category:Types of pavement should be created.  Vegaswikian (talk) 05:47, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments But Pavement is a dab page; Pavement (material) redirects to road surface; and in UK English the whole category looks misplaced. So we need a rename such as Category:Road surfaces or Category:Road surfacing. Oculi (talk) 09:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm The articles here are very old, dating back to 2003, but to cut to the chase it appears that Pavement and Pavement (roads) were created separately; the first was quickly converted into a disambig and the second stayed the main article until it got caught up in a Brit/Am naming tug-of-war which ended up at Road surface, which isn't an accurate name for the current content of the article. I haven't gotten a clear picture of current British usage, but on the other hand we could just invoke the WP:MOS and put everything back into American usage, in which case I would suggest make the category Category:Paving (civil engineering) (as there is also a mathematical sense of the word). Mangoe (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * After I did the nomination I looked more closely at the contents and removed some article like garden curbs which clearly are off topic. I started to sense something odd and I think your analysis is a good start to understanding this.  I did notice that road surface includes sidewalks!  That confused me so maybe this needs an RM to kick start the cleanup? Vegaswikian (talk) 18:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: At any rate let's merge into the result, as I can't see a separate justification for that. In UK English, "pavement" means pedestrian surfaces as opposed to carriageways, but it appears that in American English it includes any road surface, so it's not helpful to keep the current word. Hard landscape materials or Hardscape are articles that could suggest alternative new names. "Road surfacing" sounds as if it would not include pedestrian surfaces; I think it could be useful to distinguish them, but what would be a good internationally-understood name for the latter? – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The Road surface article has two brief references to walkways in the lead but the rest of the article is all about roads. I have suggested at Talk:Road surface that these should be removed and there should be a seperate article about walkways, which would solve that problem. I don't think there is a common international term that would cover roads and pedestrian surfaces. Richerman ''   (talk) 23:37, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe this is a result of back-editing to justify the limitation of the topic. Historically the same set of techniques has been used to pave walkways and roads, and in some situations interior floors as well. Mangoe (talk) 23:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The road surface article is up for renaming here. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: The proposal was rejected on 14 July 2012 Ephebi (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment what about Category:Paving ? Or the previously suggested Category:Paving (civil engineering) ? -- 70.49.127.65 (talk) 03:30, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep this is a category to group together multiple types of pavement just like Category:Brids groups together multiple types of birds.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:20, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Except that as stated above it includes much more then pavement types. If that is all you want to cover, then you should be supporting a rename to Category:Types of pavement or at least creation of this as a subcategory. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge then REname to somthing like Category:Road surfacings. As an Englishman, the "pavement" is the sidewalk, but the materials and methods are much the same whether for the main carriageway or the footpath.  Peterkingiron (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with that proposal is that it excludes sidewalks and other stuff because of the UK usage. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We in the UK have two meanings for the word "Pavement": in lay terms it is often used for what the US knows as the walkway or sideway. (Hence pages that refer to Kerbs, etc are valid members of the category and should not have been removed. That sort of tidying up is frowned upon while the topic is being discussed.) But in civil engineering "pavement/paving" refers to the technical qualities of a roadway and the process of laying it. (See  ) Like the US term, it may include pedestrian walkways or cyclelanes, etc in that definition. As previous discussions have railed against using even the slightest form of jargon it would be best to avoid pavement entirely. It is also not restricted to the road surface but also encompasses foundations. Ephebi (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge with Category:Road construction as an all-encompassing term, and for reasons outlined above. Ephebi (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Propaganda theory

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: upmerge to Category:Propaganda. The Bushranger One ping only 01:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting propaganda theory


 * Nominator's rationale: Not distinct from Category:Propaganda. Everything in here could happily be moved up. --Andrewaskew (talk) 02:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:Propaganda as suggested. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Upmerge whether or not this is distinct I do not know, but it is too small of a cateogry to be worth having it distinct at this time.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge per the others; nominator is right in saying that this shouldn't be a separate category, but getting rid of the category wouldn't really help. Nyttend (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.