Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 May 20



Category:Northern Virginia military operations of the American Civil War

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting northern virginia military operations of the american civil war


 * Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization. See no need to split the Virginia in the American Civil War category into regions of the state, since no other state does so. 76.7.224.171 (talk) 23:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Support although I know there will be those who will argue Virginia is in someway special and should be treated differently.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. How would Northern Virginia be defined? North of the Rappahonnack? Benkenobi18 (talk) 07:32, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support The layer is superfluous as the contents are well-covered by Category:Campaigns of the Main Eastern Theater of the American Civil War.- choster (talk) 18:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Neither the VA in the ACW nor the Eastern Theater categories are so large that this kind of subcategorization is necessary. Wild Wolf (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Transformers (franchise)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: not renamed. -- Black Falcon (talk) 21:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Transformers (franchise) to Category:Transformers franchise
 * Nominator's rationale: No need to use parenthetical disambiguation for this category, as it is literally for the Transformers franchise. To match Category:Transformers series‎, Category:Transformers factions‎, Category:Transformers comics‎, Category:Transformers music‎, etc. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  21:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The franchise is actually called "Transformers", not "Transformers franchise". The main article is not disambiguated. The only reason the category contains the disambiguation is because there is also an article named Transformer, and if we had a category named it would be unclear if this were a set category for transformers or a topic category for Transformers. Since we are adding a disambiguation not contained in the article name, it makes more sense to me to do so parenthetically, to indicate that the word "franchise" is not part of the actual name of the franchise. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral it works either way. The franchise is called "Transformers", but "Transformers franchise" is natural disambiguation. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose; article is currently properly dab'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:15, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Athene

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Speedy rename C2D. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Athene to Category:Athene (owl)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per main article/athene —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Speedy rename per C2D. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename to match parent cat -- Lenticel ( talk ) 03:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Speedy rename per C2D. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:24, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alumni of the École supérieure des sciences économiques et commerciales

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Reverse merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:50, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge Category:Alumni of the École supérieure des sciences économiques et commerciales to Category:École supérieure des sciences économiques et commerciales alumni
 * Nominator's rationale I really do not care which way we do the merge, but it seems that foo alumni outnumbers alumni of foo cats among universities and colleges in France, so I guess the later would seem to make sense. The only thing I am sure of is that these two categories should be one and the same.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Oculi (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge for now, for two reasons. (1) The other subcategories of uses the "Alumni of FOO" format. This seems to contradict the rest of the French alumni categories, but at least there is inter-subcategory consistency. (2) Category:Alumni of the École supérieure des sciences économiques et commerciales was created first, having been created as Category:Alumni of ESSEC on 17 May 2012, whereas Category:École supérieure des sciences économiques et commerciales alumni was not created until 20 May 2012. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I would have granted preference of creation initially, but on finding that we are talking about 3 days, I do not think that is a worthwhile argument. I think the standardization with the other universities and colleges should take precedent over the exceptionalism of the Grandes ecoles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is precedence in time not a worthwhile argument? Of course it is! One cannot see a category named something and then create a duplicate under a different format three days later and then argue that priority in time means nothing! ... Judging by your initial nomination, I thought you didn't care which way the merge went anyway? Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Editors should not create duplicate categories, but when it comes to removing the duplication the focus should be on what the best name is for the category, rather than on which was created first. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * True, but in the absence of a consensus as to which is better, we keep the one that was created earlier. So absent a consensus, it can be relevant. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge per Good Olfactory, but also because with long names the "alumni of Foo" format is much easier to read than the "foo alumni" format. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dexter characters

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. The category lists no head article, and the nominator does not assert what he believes the head article to be (let alone help other CfD participants by linking to it), so the rationale for this rename is unclear. The only other commenter disagrees, but there was little discussion ... so feel free to renominate with a clearer rationale. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:01, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Dexter characters to Category:Dexter (TV series) characters
 * Nominator's rationale: Per main article/cat., speedy was opposed. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment but this category covers the novel series as well as the TV series, so it is not the main article for this category (there doesn't seem to be a Dexter (franchise) main article at all) 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Response Is this an actual problem? Do the novels (themselves based on the series) ever introduce characters with substantial enough commentary to warrant an article on Wikipedia? If not, then this is moot. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Aix

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Aix to Category:Aix (genus)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per main article. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:22, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Although having a category bear the same name as the main article is a commendable goal, it is not even noted for consideration in Category names, and in this case, there is no other topic that are liable to require this disambiguation in the near future. Aix redirects to a page where the names are either geographical—and thus already disambiguated—or acronyms; it could just as well go to the genus with a hatnote to the disambiguation. Circéus (talk) 18:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename – per line 2 of Category_names: "Names of topic categories should be singular, normally corresponding to the name of a Wikipedia article" (a sentence which could be clarified ... eg "the corresponding Wikipedia article"). Oculi (talk) 19:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename. Such renames are so routine it qualifies under speedy criterion C2D. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, and that AIX is an IBM operating system. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. This is not speedy since it's been contested, but seems entirely in the spirit of C2D. (I'm glad to see that criterion has been created – I remember proposing making it a speedy criterion a couple of years ago but the idea didn't get consensus then.) Jafeluv (talk) 10:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename entirely necessary for disambiguation with the two well-known main cities called Aix (needless to say, the disam page follows the usual style & leaves the reader totally unaware which these are). Johnbod (talk) 11:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename to match parent article.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:FIFA Century Club

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus, leaning to keep. It seems to me that WP:OC only rules out arbitrary limits picked by Wikipedians where There is no particular reason for choosing the number, and does not provide a policy basis for rejecting arbitrary limits that are officially celebrated by worldwide governing bodies. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:24, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting fifa century club


 * Nominator's rationale: This is a very important milestone in football/soccer, but per these three consecutive nominations, we don't categorize players by arbitrary numerical accomplishments like "100 caps." The List of footballers with 100 or more caps covers this subject in vastly more detail, and in a much more organized manner. Note that by calling this arbitrary, I don't mean it's unimportant; I mean that it must imply a value judgment that the number of 100 caps is important to someone, and we don't generally do that in the category system.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose One might argue that the difference between 99 caps and 100 caps is but a 1.01% difference in quantity (although the irony of measuring the irrelevance of the number 100 as a percentage is huge), but the difference between being listed as a member of a specific grouping by the sports organising body, and not being so listed, is an absolute difference. Kevin McE (talk) 16:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - there's nothing 'arbitrary' about the number chosen, FIFA has decided that 100 caps is of special worth and deserving such an honour. GiantSnowman 16:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - "The List of footballers with 100 or more caps covers this subject in vastly more detail, and in a much more organized manner." Goes hand-in-hand with the category, per WP:CLN.  Lugnuts  (talk) 18:01, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete – 100 has been arbitrarily chosen by FIFA, but is still arbitrary. (CLN certainly does not say that lists and categories justify each other.) Oculi (talk) 19:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Analysis of the number of fingers on your hands will suggest that the number chosen by FIFA is not arbitrary, but the criteria for admission, and the description of the category, are not primarily dependent on the number 100: they are dependent upon a specific list that FIFA maintains. Kevin McE (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom; it is not arbitrary in the sense that someone in WP has chosen this cut-off in isolation from what is commonly done by FIFA outside of WP, but it is an arbitrary cut-off in the abstract sense. Arbitrary in this sense does not mean unimportant or invented by WP editors; what it does mean is that objectively there is no large difference between a 99 capper and a 100 capper unless one accepts the value judgment that has been selected by FIFA. I see no one in favour of keeping has bothered to address the issues raised by the precedents linked to, all of which addressed very similar categories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 18:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

There is already a List of footballers with 100 or more caps, so no info will be lost by deleting this category. I notice that neither that list nor the article Cap (sport) provide any evidence that the magic number of 100 has a huge wider significance, and none of the contributors to this discussion have offered any such evidence. I understand that some sports fans like statistics, so I have no objection to the existence of the list (provided it is nor WP:OR), but the category system is not the place for this sort of info. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC) Contributors and interested parties should be aware of previous discussions here, here, here and here. Kevin McE (talk) 11:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Once again. Same issue as all the previous ones. 100 Caps is not an arbitrary number. Benkenobi18 (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you read what others have written about what "arbitrary" means in this context? If so, what is your response to that? Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - in the other discussion the nominator rationale was "we don't create categories around arbitrary career numbers like 300 and 500", the next was "we don't make categories about player accomplishments by season". To me 300 or 500 is a arbitrary then 100, and this is not just one season it's throughout your career. Besides, 100 caps for your nation is a big thing in association football, and it's not an arbitrary number as it's FIFA who made this thing up. Mentoz86 (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Good Ol'factory and per WP:OC. The fact that FIFA has chosen this arbitrary cut-off point does not make it any less arbitrary, nor does the fact that it is a round number. There is no significant difference between a player who has 99 caps and one who has 100 caps, because both are highly-accomplished players, and while passing the milestone may make for a small celebration, it is ultimately only a minor step.
 * That's the point here - there is significant difference between a player who has 99 caps and one who has 100 caps and hence it is not an Arbitrary inclusion criterion. Mentoz86 (talk) 08:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No, there's not really. There is no real inherent difference in quality or ability. Nor does reaching 100 caps make the person a better player. The sole difference is that FIFA and others have decided to recognise the 100-game cutoff as being significant and a marker of excellence. That's pretty much the definition of what is meant by an arbitrary characteristic in categories. It doesn't mean unimportant or non-notable. It means it's essentially like an award, not something inherent about the nature of the subject itself. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * And that is why it is named as it is: it is a list of those who have received this recognition from FIFA, and there is no number as a threshold in the name of the category. Is your contention that an award from the sports international organising body is not worthy of a category?  A player should not be added to the category simply because they have played their hundredth international (indeed, some players have appeared more than 100 times for their country and are not included): they are in this category because they are in FIFA's club.  Kevin McE (talk) 11:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I generally agree with the guideline on categories and awards: WP:OC. I don't see this as analogous to a Nobel Prize, mainly because it is an award based on the arbitrary selection of the number of games played, rather than an achievement of some specific excellence. Why not 50 games? Why not 75 games? Because 100 is a nice, round, rare-to-reach-but-occasionally-doable—but still arbitrary—number. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that Good O gets to the nub of the issue there. This FIFA title in not a mark of excellence; it is a recognition of career durability. It may include a notable great performer from a successful side ... but it can also include someone from a national side which couldn't beat 3 blind mice, but who has endured because he is slightly less useless than his successive team-mates. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. No parent article.  List of footballers with 100 or more caps is a list and doesn't serve as a parent article.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Schools named Victoria

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting schools named victoria


 * Nominator's rationale: If such a grouping is desirable, it should be through a disambiguation page, not a category. Besides, there is already the Victoria High School page where most of these articles appear. ...  disco spinster   talk  12:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete – WP:OC. They could all be added to Victoria High School (if any are missing). Oculi (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Oculi as a pure example of WP:OC. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete what next Category:People named Victoria?John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OC -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OC, of which this is a clearcut example. Is it WP:SNOWing yet? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Dallas

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Propose renaming:
 * Category:Dallas (TV series) to Category:Dallas (TV franchise)
 * Category:Dallas (TV series) characters to Category:Dallas (TV franchise) characters
 * Category:Dallas (TV series) episodes to Category:Dallas (TV franchise) episodes
 * Category:Dallas (TV series) films to Category:Dallas (TV franchise) films

This TV franchise shares characters amongst its properties, and is otherwise interlinked, Dallas (TV series), Knots Landing, Dallas (2012 TV series), so rename the categories so that they can function for the entire TV franchise.

70.24.251.208 (talk) 09:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.