Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 13



Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting bosnia and herzegovina cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: single article already in Bosnia and Herzegovina cuisine, this cat will not be populated. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. See this book for evidence of at least six distinctive cheese varieties. In time, this category almost certainly will be populated. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep if we have Category:Cheeses by country, but wouldn't it really make more sense to have Category:Cheeses by region or some biogeographical category? --Lquilter (talk) 15:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Beninese cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting beninese cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: article is also in "beninise cuisine", which is adequate. this cat will not be populated. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:55, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Egyptian cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy keep,; nomination supported by nobody, and withdrawn by nominator. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:57, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting egyptian cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: single article doesnt need this category, which will not be populated. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Egypt has originated and produces many types of cheese including but by no means limited to domiati, halloumi, testouri, beyda, roumi, arabieh and of course mish, which dates back at least 5,000 years. I see no basis for the claim that this category will not be populated. Robinson & Tamime (1991) Feta and Related Cheeses may help to inform this discussion. Lewicka (2011) Food and Foodways of Medieval Cairenes: Aspects of Life in an Islamic Metropolis of the Eastern Mediterranean gives some historical context. Perhaps a bit more evidence should be provided for the other cheese category deletion proposals. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Withdraw nomination and speedy keep, Aymatth2 has made the point here with refs, but most basically, he found the articles on cheeses that are egyptian and added this category to them. well done, I could have suspected there might be more, considering the countries importance in the region, and i could have done a search for "cheese" and "egypt".76.254.34.67 (talk) 06:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Aymatth. I also see no reason why we should delete categories just because they have few entries.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  16:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - the category has been populated, thus serving its purpose. Northamerica1000(talk) 06:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Emirati cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting emirati cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: single article is a way overcategorized food product, has multiple "cheese" categories, this category is never going to be populated. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:53, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Maltese cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting maltese cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: underpopulated, no other cheeses from this nation. article now under maltese cuisine, which is adequate. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:57, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mauritanian cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting mauritanian cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: underpopulated, no other cheeses seem to come from there. the one article is now categorized under mauritanian cuisine, which is enough. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seems reasonable enough. I created the category while categorizing the plethora of food articles, thinking the category members would eventually grow. Since they haven't, there's no need for it. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nicaraguan cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting nicaraguan cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: this is not a nicaraguan cheese, its a nicaraguan cheese dish. the name is only a cheese in bolivia Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I created this category back in 2006, but it was probably very routine at the time. I have no objection to category deletion or re-categorization of the existing article. --Elonka 21:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. This source and this one show that milk and cheese production are important to the Nicaraguan economy. There would be plenty of material for a catmain article on Nicaraguan cheese. Moralique seems country-specific, and then there are the generic Cuajada, Queso de frier, Queso seco Nicaraguense, Queso seco ahumado, Queso ahumado. (A form of cottage cheese, frying cheese, dry cheese, dry smoked cheese, smoked cheese.) Although the names are generic, there is certainly enough content describing what each type of cheese is like and how it is made and used in Nicaragua for a country-specific article on each type. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Per above.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  16:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting australian cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: underpopulated category Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Northern Irish cheeses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep (and see discussion immediately below). Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting northern irish cheeses


 * Nominator's rationale: the one category in it, is underpopulated, up for merge, and the one article, again can easily fit into Category:British cheeses Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: given the business structure and branding/promotional integration of the food industry on the island, a much more sensible upmerge would be to Category:Irish cheeses. Brocach (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep the one category in it should be upmerged and the overall categories should be both British and Irish cheeses. Valenciano (talk) 06:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:SMALLCAT as part of a series under Category:Cheeses by country. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as merely duplicating Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland with no separate content to merge. Full rationale in my comments under the below discussion. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep as part of country series and remove 'Cheeses of Northern Ireland' instead of the other way round for conformity with the other category names. Dmcq (talk) 07:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Conformity would go the other way - see Category:Culture of Northern Ireland. The adjective "Northern Irish" was specifically removed as an exceptional case in past mass CFDs and shouldn't be snuck back in via individual discussions to create an inconsistent mess. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have thought about it again and I believe the cheeses are the main item rather than Northern Ireland and therefore the way of categorizing cheeses should be followed rather than the general one for Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per above. It helps readers browse and find cheeses for other countries which have an article on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The diagram at File:British_Isles_Euler_diagram_15.svg may help. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Northern Irish cheeses, which can be a subcategory of Category:British cheeses and Category:Irish cheeses. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland to Category:British cheeses
 * Nominator's rationale: underpopulated category Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: given the business structure and branding/promotional integration of the food industry on the island, a much more sensible upmerge would be to Category:Irish cheeses. BTW Northern Ireland is not in Britain, it is in Ireland. Brocach (talk) 22:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment sorry i wasnt as aware of the good friday agreement and its results as i should have been, dont mean to dredge up any troubles. It does make cultural sense to combine north irish cheese with irish, not british. mea culpa.(mercurywoodrose)76.254.34.67 (talk) 06:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Well, technically, and for better or worse, N.Ireland is in fact part of Britain, if by "Britain" we are simply using shorthand for the United Kingdom, which seems to the the case here, rather than referring to the island of Great Britain. It is also of course at the same time part of Ireland as well. Not sure where that leaves us in terms of an answer though.  N-HH   talk / edits  13:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The British cheeses list includes only cheeses made in England, Scotland and Wales, hence the name List of British cheeses. Where this leaves us is that Irish cheeses, from North, South, East or West of Ireland, should be listed in Category:Irish cheeses. Brocach (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well no, for the seven years or so since at least 2006, it has had a lead describing it as being about cheese "from the United Kingdom"; or at least it did until you just changed it to say "from Great Briatin" [sic] just two minutes before making the post above. Also since at least 2006, it did indeed include at least one Northern Irish cheese – the only inhabitant of the Category under discussion currently; WP doesn't seem to have many pages on Northern Irish cheeses – until another user removed it only a few months previously in turn. Your statement that "Northern Ireland is not in Britain" remains, regardless of the content of the list, factually inaccurate, which was the main point of my original response, and not something therefore that should sway any decision about what happens to this Category.  N-HH   talk / edits  22:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just looked out the window and Northern Ireland is still, "factually", in Ireland. It is not in Britain, which consists of England, Scotland and Wales. The list of British cheeses contains only cheeses that are made on the island of Britain, and none that are made on the island of Ireland. Brocach (talk) 22:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Britain is not an island (you appear to be confusing it with Great Britain). It is, of course, a shorthand term for the UK, which Northern Ireland is politically and administratively part of (just as it is geographically a part of Ireland). The list page both said it was intended to be a list of UK cheeses and included a Northern Irish cheese for over seven years, until very recently; the former until you surreptitiously changed it in the middle of this discussion.  N-HH   talk / edits  22:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I confess that I do not trawl daily through every reference to Irish cheeses on the internet (without excluding the possibility that some people do), so this one page may well have had wrong data on it for as much as seven years. The point is that the page is, at last, correct in listing only cheeses that are in fact made in Britain. Britain is not part of Ireland and Ireland is not part of Britain; Irish cheeses are cheeses that are made on the island of Ireland and British cheeses are cheeses that are made in England, Scotland and Wales. Note that the Category:British cheeses includes only England, Scotland and Wales sub-categories, and includes no Irish cheeses. Brocach (talk) 22:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that seems to be your definition of what constitutes "British cheese" and of what is rightly or "wrongly" included within that, but not, as noted, the definition employed by the British Cheese Board for one. And, on the more general point, part of Ireland is indeed commonly described currently – as I also said, for better or worse – to be part of Britain, as the term is usually used. I'm also slightly confused by your claim that the WP British Cheese Category only includes sub-categories for England, Wales and Scotland. It clearly currently includes a sub-cat for Northern Ireland (although that may be a consequence of the recent switches). And, finally, the point is that we need to clear this issue up; repeatedly and unilaterally suddenly changing, and edit-warring over, the content and text of related pages while the point is under discussion here, as you are doing, is not helpful nor does it help give any impression that you are acting in good faith or with an open mind. FWIW I might even support a clearer division of the sort you suggest, but that would need to be discussed and agreed. I certainly don't see that we need to start a political WP fight over cheese FFS.  N-HH   talk / edits  09:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. N-HH, please take a few minutes to learn some basic geography. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is not part of Great Britain.
 * BrownHairedGirl, please take a few minutes to read what I have actually written above about Northern Ireland, Britain (as shorthand for the UK) and Great Britain, and think for a couple of seconds about whether any of it is inaccurate or at all misleading, before posting a pithy and patronising response to someone who knows exactly what they are talking about when it comes to geography, politics and British and Irish history. Thanks.  N-HH   talk / edits  15:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * N-HH, if you knew what you were talking about, you would not be claiming that "Britain" is a shorthand for "United Kingdom". The adjective "British" is sometimes used as a POV shorthand for "of the United Kingdom", but your claim that part of Ireland is indeed commonly described currently – as I also said, for better or worse – to be part of Britain is hogwash. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well this is all going a bit off topic, but anyone who denies that the term "Britain" is used as shorthand for the UK or that, therefore, Northern Ireland is often described as being "part of Britain" is rather obviously the one talking "hogwash" and who does not know what they are talking about. And, again, you could always read the totality of what I have said on this point, from the beginning, where I explicitly acknowledged that it is used as shorthand for both the UK and the island of Great Britain, depending on precise context, and that this complicates the situation here. If you wish to assert that that statement is not true, or misleading in some way, I can leave you to your own world on this point.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No doubt you can find one source somewhere for just about any use of terminology relating to these islands. So the fact that you found two geographically illiterate comments to support your case doesn't surprise me at all ... and the fact that one of them is in a book called "British Civilisation" doesn't help your case. If you want to make a point about geographical terminology, try looking for a neutral source rather than one which pins its worldview to the title. Then pay a visit to Derry and tell the folks on the street there that they are a "part of Britain" ... but wear running shoes. You'll need them. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, British History For Dummies explains the issues quite succinctly. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite so. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. However, Northern Ireland IS British, and that's something different. So, cheeses manufactured in Northern Ireland are both Irish and British Cheeses, and should be categorised accordingly. I think there's just one dissenter at the moment, so maybe someone could correct all the edits that've been made today? SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 19:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Among the "dissenters" you can count the people that actually make cheeses in Northern Ireland: see here and elsewhere on the Fivemiletown Creamery site for its definitive descriptions of its cheeses as Irish cheeses; then find one other cheesemaker in the region who describes the product as British (I couldn't). Why on earth should Wikipedia support your politically motivated campaign (yes, that edit summary, "Ulster is British! Then, now, forever!" was a bit of a giveaway) to claim them as British cheeses when the people who make and sell them say they are Irish cheeses? And can you point us to those supposedly incorrect edits? Brocach (talk) 23:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * @BHG. The sources I cited are perfectly good evidence of the fact that Britain is used as a short form name for the UK and that NI is described as a "part of" Britain, in a political sense, which is all I have ever said (I never said it is only so used, which would indeed require unanimity of sources). Both those statements are true, and there are 101 other sources I can dig up that follow that usage and/or make the point explicitly. If your personal view is that they are all, conveniently, "geographically illiterate" or "wrong", or that those with the word "British" in the title should be disqualified, then fine, but it doesn't negate that fact, and has no more import than would a claim by me that any source you cite is "illiterate" or "wrong". Also of course you are missing the underlying point here, which I highlighted from the outset, that people mean different things when they say "Britain" and that any definitive statement about what is included or not within the term is going to get tripped up or be open to being contradicted or contested – which is precisely why I have not made such an explicit statement about what is or is not necessarily included, and my original intervention was simply about challenging such a definitive statement, not offering an alternative but equally definitive statement of my own. And finally, in the light of some intervening comments, I would hope it is clear that my position here is in no way intended to make any political statement about Irish or British politics or the status of Northern Ireland. As for Derry, I am sure I would need to get running in some parts of the city if I said I was in Britain. Equally, the fact that it is indeed currently in the UK is precisely the thing that the people I would be running from resent of course.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Clearly if we are dealing with a specific cheese that the makers label as Irish then it should be in the category British cheeses. Oh wait - that doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever. 85.210.102.71 (talk) 22:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Northern Irish cheeses, as there is no need for two categories. The Northern Irish cheeses category should sit in both British and Irish categories. The argument that British only refers to Great Britain is contrary to long established practice here : "The word British is an adjective referring in various ways to the United Kingdom, or the island of Great Britain, and its people." The argument elsewhere that the British cheese board only represents Great Britain is untrue as can be seen from their own website: The British Cheese Board is an educational and promotional body for cheese. It aims to raise the awareness of the incredible range of cheeses now made in the UK Valenciano (talk) 06:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't see why cheeses made in any part of Ireland should be categorised as "British" cheeses. The page you link to, Valenciano, shows that no cheesemakers in any part of Ireland belong to this British network. There is no need for a "Northern Irish" or "Northern Ireland" category as there are so few cheesemakers in that region, and any upmerge should be to the Irish category rather than to the neighbouring island. Brocach (talk) 23:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That page I linked to makes it clear that the British cheese board covers the UK, not Great Britain. The other reason would be that Northern Ireland, as well as being on the island of Ireland, is legally part of the UK, the adjective for which is British, so a Northern Irish category, which fits into both British cheeses and Irish cheeses categories covers both bases. You appear to want to do it solely by island, but to do that, you'd have to seek consensus to rename the British cheeses category to "Cheeses from Great Britain" - that is the correct procedure. Breaking WP:BRD on List of British cheeses by changing a seven year old page status and then reverting three other editors is not the way to go about things. Valenciano (talk) 01:53, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Once again: the British Cheese Board (which is a completely unofficial body) consists exclusively of British cheesemakers, with no members from either Irish jurisdiction. See http://www.britishcheese.com/members. If anything, that site strengthens the case for not listing any Irish cheeses as British. Brocach (talk) 15:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it appears not to list any NI cheesemakers on its website, but it doesn't list any from half of the counties in England or Scotland either. The page you've linked to clearly says that membership is "open to any producer of cheese in the UK" and that members "account for the majority of cheese made within the UK", which clearly demonstrate how they define the term, even if they do not have comprehensive coverage in terms of actual members. No it's not an "official" body, whatever that means anyway - it's just a trade association like hundreds of others, but so what? This NI cheesemaker happily links to the BCB site on its own site and, more importantly, it's a significant example of usage of the term "British Cheese" in the real world. It is also the attributed source for the claim on the List of British Cheeses site (the page you keep reverting against consensus on) that there are 700 "British" cheeses. They mean of course cheeses from the UK, but thanks to your unilateral point-making changes there, that text has now been distorted to read as if the number refers solely to cheese from the island of Great Britain.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You still have the knack of linking to sites that undermine your own arguments. The Fivemiletown Creamery page linked above refers to "cheeses created in Britain and Ireland", indicating that, in the view of this Irish cheese manufacturer, cheeses created in Ireland are not cheeses created in Britain. Go to this page and see how Fivemiletown defines its own cheeses: "Ballybrie is a fine Irish Brie"... "Ballyoak, Award Winning Irish Soft Cheese"... "Ballyblue, Award Winning Irish Soft Cheese"... " Boilíe Irish Goat’s Cheese"... "Fivemiletown Mild Cheddar, Award Winning Irish Mild Cheddar"... "Fivemiletown Mature Cheddar, Award Winning Irish Mature Cheddar"... "Fivemiletown Extra Mature Cheddar, Award Winning Irish Extra Mature Cheddar"... they make rather a lot of cheese, but none of it is described as British cheese. Brocach (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But my argument has never been that cheesemakers in Northern Ireland do not make "Irish" cheese, nor have I ever claimed, directly above or previously, that this particular one says it does make "British" cheese.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge to Category:Northern Irish cheeses as a subcat of both the Irish and UK categories, as proposed by Valenciano. is a subcat of both  and, and the same dual parenting is applied for all its sub-categories because that is the only NPOV way of accommodating the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the Island of Ireland and part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It's a great pity that some editors seem to be using this discussion to try to impose a solution which recognises only one side of the reality of Northern Ireland. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with this as a solution, assuming cats can have double parents (I wasn't sure about this, which was one reason why I hadn't actually come down in favour of any solution). I also assume/hope that the comments about "other editors" trying to "impose a solution which recognises only one side of the reality of Northern Ireland" is not aimed at anything I've said, since I've not only rather obviously avoided supporting any particular solution but, in what I have said, have very explicitly said that both the UK/British and the Irish aspect of Northern Ireland are relevant.  N-HH   talk / edits  15:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Categories can have any number of parents. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Summary to date: The original proposal to upmerge to Category:British cheeses has been withdrawn by the nominator in favour of my proposal to upmerge to Category:Irish cheeses. One other proposal was made, to merge into Category:Northern Irish cheeses, and that gained two supporters. These are very small numbers on which to aim for any kind of consensus. This discussion should be notified more widely. Brocach (talk) 00:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As Brown Haired Girl points out, Northern Ireland topics have always been categorised in both Irish and British categories, as that is the only way to meet WP:NPOV. Fresh voices would be helpful here, but that should not be done by purely notifying "allies" as you've done here in blatant violation of WP:CANVASS. Your edits to this topic, for example, changing a 6 or 7 year old consensus on List of British cheeses mid-discussion and then reverting 3 editors who changed it back, are bordering on disruption and pointy editing. Incidentally, I count 4 editors above who support categorising the cheeses as both British and Irish. Valenciano (talk) 07:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Category history This category was originally created as Category:Northern Irish cheeses back in March 2006. In 2011 it was one of many categories renamed to "from Northern Ireland" as part of a general move to avoid the adjective "Northern Irish". The category was originally in Category:British cheeses from the start and also added to Category:Irish cheeses in May 2007. Category:Northern Irish cheeses was turned into a category redirect in May 2012 but the following month an IP recreated it as a parent category for Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland & retain in both Category:British cheeses & Category:Irish cheeses, Delete Category:Northern Irish cheeses. There is absolutely nothing in Category:Northern Irish cheeses that isn't also in Category:Cheeses of Northern Ireland so there's nothing to merge. Maintain the existing positions of using "of Northern Ireland" for category names per past CFDs and the standing consensus to include Northern Ireland categories in both British & Irish categories. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

We seem to have a working consensus here involving three categories. I think the debate has gone on long enough. Can it be closed. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: too soon to close, I believe we need to bring in more voices here. As far as I can see, what we have in the north of Ireland is an lot of great Irish cheese being made by Irish cheesemakers who call it, and market it as, Irish cheese. What we have on Wikipedia is a handful of editors who think that these Irish cheeses made in Ireland should also be listed as a matter of principle as British cheeses, even though not one cheesemaker in Northern Ireland admits to making a British cheese. This looks a bit >:-o political to me. We should show a bit of respect for the cheesemakers and categorise them according to how they publicly describe their cheeses. Brocach (talk) 19:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment:Agree with Brocach on this. In the event of Ian Paisley buying a dairy farm in Co. Antrim and making a cheese called "Royal Blue" and marketed with the slogan "Best of British", it should be classified as a British Cheese. Finnegas (talk) 22:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note I have notified WikiProject Ireland Collaboration that this discussion is taking place. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to 'Northern Irish cheeses' same as the other cheese by country categories. Don't merge to British cheseses - that should just be kept as a container for the various countries inn the UK - the name is a bit wrong but that doesn't matter much. No messing around about whether people say 'British cheese' or 'Irish cheese' or not, just go by country for this classification - it is not as though this is a BLP category where someone changes sex by just asserting their new identity. Overall agree with Valenciano's position above. Dmcq (talk) 07:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Northern Irish cheeses. (Also, Britain is the UK; Great Britain is the island.) — Jon C.  ॐ  18:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Bretagne is Brittany; Grande Bretagne is England, Scotland and Wales. Brocach (talk) 22:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I had no idea we were conversing in French. When did this start? And how and when did I pick it up? Someone must've been playing me those "learn a language in your sleep" tapes! — Jon C.  ॐ  09:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As amusing as this is I think you should stop. Give each other a hug and try not to plant a bomb in each others pockets ^_^ 85.210.108.234 (talk) 16:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
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Category:Criticism of feminism

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 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  Wizardman  02:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Criticism of feminism to Category:Antifeminism
 * Nominator's rationale: Per main article. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, you mean the "article" for the redirect you created? -- Marco Guzman, Jr Talk  15:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose The criticism form is much better and clear. It is less Point of View pushing.  Anyway not all criticisms can be reduced to being "anti".John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:52, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The suggested title expresses a POV, and labels these articles with a clearly negative term. Dimadick (talk) 15:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the current title is more NPOV than the decidedly POV suggested new title. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 18:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Maybe it's semantics, but the two names are not equivalent. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 09:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, not all criticism is antifeminism. --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose because the two concepts, while no doubt overlapping, are not the same. --Lquilter (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As it's been previously stated: "not all criticism is antifeminism". -- Marco Guzman, Jr Talk  20:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


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Category:States of the Western United States

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 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting states of the western united states


 * Nominator's rationale: I closed this discussion as a delete. This should also go for the same reason. It's not completely clear what is the "west," as this definition has evolved over time.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 15:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete per nominator. Far too many competing definitions to make a stable category. Illinois and Wisconsin were in the Western United States in the period after inependence. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete additionally Richard Rodriguez wrote in his book "Brown" about how as a person growing up in Sacramento he knew he had to go east to reach the West, so there is not even consensus to include California.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


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Category:Revolution landmarks

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:57, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting revolution landmarks


 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the French Revolution (note: Prisons of the Reign of Terror could be moved up to Category:French Revolution)
 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the Iranian Revolution (note: Cinema Rex fire could be moved up to Category:Iranian Revolution)
 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the Libyan civil war (note: this was accidentally not tagged in the previous CFD)
 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the Russian Revolution
 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the 1905 Russian Revolution
 * Propose deleting Category:Buildings and structures of the 1917 Russian Revolution
 * Nominator's rationale: One of the Revolution Landmarks categories was recently deleted by CFD and, on examination, the others (which were all created by the same editor) also fail WP:OC's proscription against "venues by event". DexDor (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete all these are basically building by events categories. We definately should delete the Russian Revolution one, since there is no reason to have to different revolutions groups together in one category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:54, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and the application of WP:OC in these cases, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


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Avex Group artists categories

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:AKB48 and Avex Group to Category:Avex Group artists
 * Propose merging Category:Avex Trax artists to Category:Avex Group artists
 * Propose merging Category:Avex Tune artists to Category:Avex Group artists
 * Propose merging Category:Rhythm Zone artists to Category:Avex Group artists
 * Propose merging Category:Sonic Groove artists to Category:Avex Group artists
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge. I hereby propose that these categories mentioned above be merged into the category Avex Group artists, for in its Japanese counterpart, all articles about artists signed into Avex Group were at the same category regardless of imprint. RafaelPPascual (talk) 15:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


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Category:Fashion albums

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename as nominated. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fashion albums to Category:Fashion (band) albums
 * Nominator's rationale: Disambiguate per Fashion (band) Tim! (talk) 06:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Speedy rename per c2b/c2d and the precedent of literally hundreds of such renames. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename to "Albums by Fashion". --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename to "Albums by Fashion". Much less clunky. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Response All other album by artist categories are in the form "[Performer] albums". —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as standard method of naming. Albums by Fashion is ambiguous, it would still have to be Albums by Fashion (band) which is just as clunky. Tassedethe (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per nom -- Category:Fashion (band) albums is clear & consistent. I considered the Category:Albums by Fashion but agree with Tassedethe that it is ambiguous and would still need the parenthetical.  (Otherwise, one could see it meaning, "Albums by fashion/trend/style".)  If someone wants to nominate the whole tree to the clearer "Albums by FOO BAND" formulation, which is clearer, I would support.  But otherwise we should definitely keep consistency. --Lquilter (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


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patience games
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Double deck solitaire card games and Category:Forty Thieves solitaire card games. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete does not have a main article and a the adjective/qualifier "patience" is ambiguousCurb Chain (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete does not have a main article and a the adjective/qualifier "patience" is ambiguousCurb Chain (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete does not have a main article and a the adjective/qualifier "patience" is ambiguousCurb Chain (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you mean upmerge. However, I note that all the subcategories of Category:Solitaire card games use the format "... patience games". What do you want to do with the other 13? (Also the infobox on the articles is called Infobox Patience Game.) Keep Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, alright. Rename Beeswaxcandle (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Double deck solitaire card games and Category:Forty Thieves solitaire card games. There are many subcategories of Category:Solitaire card games, and while "patience" is a fine synonym for "solitaire," the subcategories should match the head category and head article Solitaire.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename from "Foo patience games" to "Foo solitaire card games", to match parent Category:Solitaire card games. The word "card" is needed as there are other games in Category:Solitaire tabletop games. If this CFD results in a rename of these two then I suggest that all the siblings should follow as WP:C2C speedy. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed.--Mike Selinker (talk) 18:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thrided.Curb Chain (talk) 20:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * comment since the main article is Patience (game) and nearly all the sub categories of Category:Solitaire card games are named Patience, why the sudden move to upset this world? Much better to rename Category:Solitaire card games to Category:Patience card games Hmains (talk) 03:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Patience (game) seems like a poor article to be referencing: its definition is that a game categorized as a "patience game" is a single player game. Otherwise, it a "patience game" is a "solitaire game".  Maybe Patience (game) should be merged to solitaire.Curb Chain (talk) 06:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Patience (game) has now been reredirected to solitaire.Curb Chain (talk) 05:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * comment patience and solitaire are two names for the same class of single player games. Have been for a very long time.  Hmains (talk) 00:39, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't solitaire be less ambiguous?Curb Chain (talk) 02:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
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Category:Mexican chocolate
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge Category:Chocolate para mesa to Category:Mexican chocolate. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:51, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Mexican chocolate to Category:Chocolate para mesa
 * Nominator's rationale: Not really a merge. the creator of Chocolate para mesa had the exact same idea as i did, to create a category for these chocolate wafers used to make hot chocolate in mexico and US. which is the better name? all i know is one must go, one must stay. their parent cats are slightly different, again, leave it up to you folks to decide. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:53, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reverse merge. In the US, we call what Ibarra makes "Mexican chocolate." Says so right on the label. In Mexico, the Ibarra label says Chocolate Mexicano Para Mesa, suggesting that "Mexican chocolate" is fine even in Mexico.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment i was thinking the English term might be better for the English WP, but hadnt checked for usage yet. definitely support reverse merge if the english term is common enough.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 18:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge Since it seems to be called this, at least somewhat, even in Mexico.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: there's non-Mexican chocolate para mesa as well. Are you sure there's no English translation, like "table chocolate"? --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I dont see "table chocolate" being used in the English speaking world, and I dont know of any solid chocolate products marketed specifically towards making hot chocolate, aside from the mexican brands (though trader joes now makes a version of it). usually, if cocoa powder is not being used, then regular chocolate bars are chopped up and added to hot milk. the mexican product also adds lecithin at times to aid in mixing.(merc)50.193.19.66 (talk) 19:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The term is not "Chocolate para mesa" but "Chocolate de mesa," whether you merge or not, please use the correct terms!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.162.54.131 (talk) 23:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Question What do you mean by "reverse merge"?Curb Chain (talk) 06:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
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Category:Georgian people executed by the Soviet Union
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Georgian people executed by the Soviet Union to Category:People from Georgia (country) executed by the Soviet Union
 * Nominator's rationale: Consistency; I had created the latter category without realizing that this category existed already, but the consistency (avoiding ambiguity had been to refer to categories people from the country of Georgia in this manner) is still necessary. --Nlu (talk) 01:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. It's not unlikely that some Americans were executed by the USSR, who could have been from the US State of Georgia. -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 06:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge for consistentcy. Gerogian is just too ambiguous to ever use, anywhere in a category name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom Duplicate category. Though I have to disagree with John Pack Lambert, the term Georgian people is not ambiguous. There is no other ethnic group by that name, and British people of the Georgian era are not commonly called "Georgians". Dimadick (talk) 16:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If that's true (and I'm not disagreeing with you on the point), then why do we use instead of ? Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge for the sake of greater clarity. Valenciano (talk) 07:03, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


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