Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 June 5



Category:1936 establishments in Guinea-Bissau

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename.  Vegaswikian (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename Category:1936 establishments in Guinea-Bissau to Category:1936 establishments in Portuguese Guinea
 * Nominator's rationale Guinea-Bissau was a name adopted in 1974. From the 1440s until 1974 the history can be traced under Portuguese Guinea, although I am not sure the modern boundaries applied before the 1880s. We should apply the names and boundaries of places at the time with establishment categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We have evidence we actually do this, for example Category:1936 establishments in India includes a school founded that year in Karachi, which was clearly India at the time, even if it would later be in Pakistan.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. What about the parent, Category:1936 in Guinea-Bissau? Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone seems to have been determined to make this down right difficult. This is the only child of that parent. There are no direct articles in it. I really did not see the need to drag that additional category in here, but it should be renamed too. People have gone overboard in creating these unwisely named categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to make things difficult. It just seems strange to me that we would discuss renaming Category:1936 establishments in Guinea-Bissau but not its parent Category:1936 in Guinea-Bissau. We would not want them to be named differently. IMO, proposing piecemeal work like this on the category tree (unless one plans on doing a follow-up nomination) can result in a greater mess than what currently exists—at least right now we have consistency and uniformity. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We have consistently and uniform bad policy. This is the only one of the involved categories that has any direct contents anyway.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:55, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you are talking about as I referenced no "policy". (But if you want policies changed, you need to propose changing them and get consensus for doing so.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom,   I have nominated  for renaming, not sure if its best to merge the two noms as they are on different dates. Tim! (talk) 05:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * As long as the result is the same for both, it probably doesn't matter. At minimum, interlinking the two discussions is probably a good idea. There. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * REname -- This and all others pre-1973 should use Portuguese Guinea, sicne that was its name at the time, but Guinea-Bissau should remain the ultimate parent, so that we do not get some nonsence of the country being ceasing, when it in fact continued with a new identity. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:08, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * '''If renamed, please keep a redirect and keep within tree. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Split - These categories are just historically incorrect, and lead to massively strange situations. Split to Category:1936 establishments and Category:Establishments in Guinea-Bissau, and Category:Establishments in Portuguese Guinea would make more sense.  This categorisation scheme should be thoroughly discussed with history WikiProjects and made more correct throughout.  The rigid application of this scheme, which needs to be progressed because of the grand scheme of it is leading to single-article categories, or categories which by no means make any reasonable sense (there are categories in the scheme dating to far before Christ, when the concept of countries did not even exist, there are categories containing establishments in countries which were even disestablished before the country existed, etc. etc.).  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 07:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Imprisoned Buddhist monks

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (If anyone wants to consider the articles for inclusion in Category:Persecution of Buddhists, the articles in the category were banishment of Buddhist monks from Nepal, Kumar Kashyap Mahasthavir, Bauddha Rishi Mahapragya, Pragyananda Mahasthavir, and Sudarshan Mahasthavir. There was no consensus as to which of these, if any, should be selectively upmerged, so I'm not performing any, but that doesn't mean that users can't pursue the issue. The listifying to Persecution of Buddhists option was also mentioned.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting imprisoned buddhist monks


 * Nominator's rationale: We already have a well-developed tree, which has prisoners by nationality and prison. I don't think we should start a new, which is what this would more or less fit into (in fact, this is religion + job). I don't think  or  or even  would be good ideas, so this one has to go. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep but focus. It ought to be appropriate to have categories for prisoners of conscience by religion.  However, this should be about monks imprisoned because they were Buddhists, not merely for prisoners who happen to be Buddhists.  Perhaps we do already: if so, merege there.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete There is no easy way to keep this limited to those imprisoned for being Buddhist, and in too many cases whether being Buddhist was a reason for imprisonment will be a point of debate. One man's political prisoner is another person's imprisoned revolutionary.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:19, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per User:Peterkingiron. I, for one, don't have an issue with a new . Brendon is  here  08:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Persecution of Buddhists. We do not have categories for prisoners of conscience, as that would not be WP:NPOV, except for Category:Amnesty International prisoners of conscience which is objectively defined. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally I think we should delete the last mentioned category because it gives undue weight to the views of one group.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:11, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - The information that this category presents can only work in the form of an article (see Persecution of Buddhists) or list. Under its current title, the category fails to convey its intended scope and reflects an intersection of characteristics that is patently trivial—e.g., nothing in the name Category:Imprisoned Buddhist monks would exclude a Buddhist monk who was imprisoned for one month for public drunkenness in his youth. Category:Imprisoned Buddhists would be even worse in this respect, as it replaces a religious occupation (Buddhist monk) with a religion (Buddhism). It would be nice to be able to "focus" the category to include only prisoners of conscience by religion, but I see no way to do that and none has been offered. I mildly oppose merging to Category:Persecution of Buddhists as I do not think it would be good practice to categorize people in such general topic categories (e.g., Oprah Winfrey in Category:Racism in Switzerland; context). -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:00, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per Black Falcon. If necessary selectively listify to Persecution of Buddhists, check that articles are in another Buddhist monks category. DexDor (talk) 08:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Parent categories

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. The one editor defending this category has not come up with a clear purpose & justification for it, distinct from container categories and fundamental categories. At present it contains a rather odd collection of just 48 categories, some of which are in sets e.g. films by parameter, but mostly unrelated; it will not be much of a loss, nor hard to reinstate if a different consensus emerges elsewhere or later. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting parent categories


 * Nominator's rationale: I discussed the purpose of this page with the creator, but I've not been convinced that this is really different from . As such it should be deleted. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. The purpose of this category is to provide the resource which "container categories" was meant to be all along, but which it became too unwieldy to provide. Wikipedia needs one category where broad parent categories for topical areas can be assembled and reviewed, for editors who wish to utilize them. The criteria is simple; any category which is a broad top-level category and which is designed by definition for encompassing other categories within a particular criteria area. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is, that is a very vague criteria, and it sounds like you don't like the fact that container categories has so many members. But that's sort of how things go - there are *lots* of container categories. We do have, which is perhaps close to what you want in terms of "top-level" categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You may also look at, which might provide what you're looking for. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

the problem with container categories is that it contains numerous iterations of the same sub-categorization. so, for example, it contains about 60 individual categories for "anime by year," starting with "1933 anime," and then going up, almost year by year, all the way up to "1994 anime." As you reasonably note, that's how things go. so, by the same token, we now have "Parent categories," which is eminently more useful for the average user, since it would only have the single parent category which is for all such sub-categories for anime by year. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, you are claiming that it is perfectly okay for us to retain "container categories," which has the following contents (below), yet not retain "Parent categories," which is eminently more useful and readable for the average editor. 17th-century Asian people‎ (7 C, 1 P) ► 17th-century European people‎ (22 C, 1 P) ► 17th-century Jewish physicians‎ (4 C) ► 17th-century men‎ (1 C) ► 17th-century Ottoman people‎ (4 C, 50 P) ► 17th-century people by nationality‎ (56 C) ► 17th-century physicians‎ (23 C, 4 P) ► 17th-century religious buildings‎ (93 C, 6 P) ► 17th-century school buildings‎ (1 C) ► 18th-century Asian people‎ (8 C, 9 P) ► 18th-century British medical doctors‎ (3 C) ► 18th-century Croatian people‎ (8 P) ► 18th-century European people‎ (20 C, 7 P) ► 18th-century Jewish physicians‎ (6 C) ► 18th-century men‎ (1 C) ► 18th-century Ottoman people‎ (4 C, 71 P) ► 18th-century people by nationality‎ (66 C) ► 18th-century physicians‎ (29 C, 5 P) ► 18th-century religious buildings‎ (103 C, 7 P) ► 18th-century school buildings‎ (27 C)

--Sm8900 (talk) 16:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * has over 4000 categories. You have identified a few that didn't have the "container category" tag added to them, but this has now been resolved. I would estimate that there are probably several thousand more that are self-evidently container categories, but which don't have the tag added - it's really neither here nor there, and if you'd like to go and add the container category tag to thousands of more categories please be my guest. The problem is, you haven't come up with a clear metric by which should be populated - either it will end up almost the same as  (perhaps with certain duplicates removed), or it will end up the same as . I don't see a middle ground where this notion of "parent" cat is useful. Take a look at this page:  and quickly tell me, which ones are "parent" cats, and which ones aren't? Your terminology doesn't make sense... All cats are parents of other cats, and some cats are the highest level parents, and for those, we already have categories to hold them. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * the truth is that you and I are the same type of person, arguing over the same type of idea, only from different angles. you are saying that it is okay for us to retain "container categories," with its overly expansive approach to categorization, and you are also saying it is good for us to retain the strict hierarchicalization inherent in "Main topic classifications." The problem is that you are trying to argue for both positions at once. I am simply trying to insert an other element between the two, one which will be eminently useful for average editors, and for the benefit of the project as a whole. it adds a little bit of the subjectivity inherent in the hierarchy below it, but keeps it consolidated. it will be good for the project. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * to answer your question, from the page which you cited, THIS is a parent category: ► Olympic competitors by country‎ (220 C)


 * while THESE are not:

► Olympic competitors for Afghanistan‎ (6 C) ► Olympic competitors for Albania‎ (7 C) ► Olympic competitors for Algeria‎ (19 C) ► Olympic competitors for American Samoa‎ (5 C) ► Olympic competitors for Andorra‎ (8 C) ► Olympic competitors for Angola‎ (8 C) ► Olympic competitors for Antigua and Barbuda‎ (3 C) ► Olympic competitors for Argentina‎ (36 C) ► Olympic competitors for Armenia‎ (17 C) ► Olympic competitors for Aruba‎ (5 C) ► Olympic competitors for Australasia‎ (8 C) ► Olympic competitors for Australia‎ (47 C) ► Olympic competitors for Austria‎ (40 C) ► Olympic competitors for Azerbaijan‎ (16 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bahrain‎ (6 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bangladesh‎ (5 C) ► Olympic competitors for Barbados‎ (6 C) ► Olympic competitors for Belarus‎ (31 C) ► Olympic competitors for Belgium‎ (34 C) ► Olympic competitors for Belize‎ (4 C) ► Olympic competitors for Benin‎ (5 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bermuda‎ (10 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bhutan‎ (2 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bohemia‎ (7 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bolivia‎ (9 C) ► Olympic competitors for Bosnia and Herzegovina‎ (9 C) ► Olympic competitors for Botswana‎ (4 C) ► Olympic competitors for Brazil‎ (33 C)


 * --Sm8900 (talk) 17:16, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, so what about Category:Sports_competitors_by_competition_and_nationality? Is that also a "parent"? what about Category:Sportspeople_by_nationality or Category:People_by_occupation_and_nationality or Category:People_by_nationality or Category:Categories_by_nationality. You can just keep going up the tree, and it's "parents" all the way, until you hit the fundamental categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, that's a fair question. as you said, you are comfortable with the repetition which is inherent with "Container categories." so yes, we would still have some of the same repetitiveness which now occurs in "Container categories." we would simply avoid some of the unwieldiness which comes from having dozens of iterations of the same subcategorization.


 * In the cases which you cited, yes, one might expect to see some parallel items within the "Parent categories," such as "People by nationality," "People by occupation," "Sportspeople by club or team‎," "Sportspeople by position," "Sportspeople by sport," etc etc. but it would be no different than the type of expansiveness and obvious repetition which is currently found in the category "Container categories." We would simply be utilizing certain criteria, which it would make it more useful for the average editor. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:38, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Right - so you'd like it to be just like Container categories, but without any of the repetition? The way container categories is populated is through placement of a template. Are you suggesting we create a new template, or modify the existing one, to populate "Parent categories" accordingly? Again, I don't think this is workable, and having a bit of replication in that category is fine, which is not for users in any case but for editors and admins, it is a hidden category. I think your suggestion is to create a mostly duplicate category that would have many thousands of entries, but without things like - perhaps  is what you want instead? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * i do hear your point. I understand your suggestion on that. however, no, "Categories by parameter" is not quite what I had in mind. i see numerous benefits to a category which can group all parent categories together, much like "Container categories" currently does, even for those which may be within other categories. As for how to do it, I wasn't thinking of a template, but more like conventionally adding items manually to the category. the key here is those cats which are top-level for a notable topical area. so, "Sportspeople by position" is an excellent example, being the top-level category for that topical area, with no parallel whatsoever above it. there are benefits to grouping all such categories together, which would not be not attainable if we keep only a strictly top-level category which shows only the 8 or 9 umbrella categories at the very top. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete It's very unlikely that editors will understand the nuances of the distinction between container categories and parent categories. The category creator has not provided a convincing argument as to why this extra complication to the WP category structure is necessary. I suggest if he/she has ideas like this in the future they raise them at categorization talk, village pump etc to get consensus first. DexDor (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * hmmm. well, if we had to choose between the two, what do you feel would be a reason to keep the category "container categories"? in my opinion, actually "parent categories" would be the one we should keep. "container categories" seems kind of unnecessary, and too expansive right now. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that this discussion is inadequately canvassed - there is a constant problem on wp en of people adding parent cats with child cats on article category space - which makes a mess of things (showing the inadequate understanding of most editors of category trees and relationships), and the 'parent' or 'container' needs to be clearly identified - I think it is important to resolve the above - so that (a) it is very clear there is not a need to bank up parent and child cats in one article, and where possible to (b) clearly identify container categories.  How it might be resolved, I am not sure from the above conversation - it needs to be done as wp en is littered with over-categorisation, and multiple pile ups of combined parent and child categories on articles.  sats 08:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

CINI and CINI people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting cini


 * Propose deleting cini


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. This is an eponymous category for the organization CINI, and category:CINI people. It's overcategorization by association.  The dozen or so people in the organization are mostly notable for their activism in these areas, AND for other things (film production, politics) -- but not primarily or solely for their CINI work.  So categorizing the people by their association with this one organization, among their many affiliations, would usually be overcategorization.  After purging all the people for whom this category would be overcategorization, I doubt there would be more than one or two at most in the category:CINI people category.  And then for the category:CINI category more generally,  I don't anticipate a lot of articles being created on CINI topics particularly.   Lquilter (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Esperanto language

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no action: at time of close Category:Esperanto language simply redirects to Category:Esperanto (a non-participant in this discussion merged them); main article is at Esperanto. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Esperanto language
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate of Category:Esperanto — Lfdder (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Reverse merge categorization should be under the language.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Not in this case. Category:Esperanto should be the name to match the article Esperanto, where the label "language" is unnecessary since Esperanto is only a language and not also the name of an ethnicity or the like. Angr (talk) 17:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Esperanto language and keep Category:Esperanto as the general category. As Angr notes, Esperanto names the language without the problem of ambiguity between a language and something else as exists with, say, English or Chinese, so an additional descriptor is not necessary. Furthermore, the category includes subcategories that relate to the culture of Esperanto (language) users, such as Category:Esperanto movement and Category:Writers of Esperanto literature. Cnilep (talk) 23:57, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge with Category:Esperanto language (possibly vice versa). As an invented language, there is no ethnicity.  Literature in Esperanto should obviously be a sub-cat.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Depeche Mode members

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting depeche mode members


 * Nominator's rationale: Not enough members to warrant en entire category. Depeche Mode is good enough. ❤ Yutsi  Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 13:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * oppose I count around 1300 categories in . I'm not sure if I like this scheme in any case, as it seems a classic example of categories that aren't going to get any bigger, but we should either eliminate all of them or keep all, not just pick them off one by one.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Uh, no. Major band in a scheme of 1300 categories of the same type.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep As part of the estabished scheme of Category:Musicians by band.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 18:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Works originally published in Tatler

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Works originally published in Tatler (1709 journal), following move of Tatler (1709 journal). – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Works originally published in Tatler to Category:to be determined by consensus
 * Nominator's rationale: There are multiple "Tatler"s . The current two articles are for the Tatler (1709), but the Tatler (1901) has also published works, and it is the fashion rag, while the 1709 version isn't what would now be called a fashion mag. The category is in the fashion mag tree. So... should this be renamed to 1901 or 1709? And with only two articles, should we delete it instead? Additionally, there are many Tatlers around the world. 65.94.79.6 (talk) 13:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Works originally published in Tatler (1709). The articles currently categorized in the category were published in Tatler (1709), not Tatler (1901). Recategorize this new category under Category:Works originally published in literary magazines. (Though I am unsure why we need two separate articles for the two incarnations of the magazine.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 13:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * begrudgingly rename per GOF. However, I must note for the record that the whole tree bugs me. Do we classify novels by publisher? No? Then why do we classify the fact that some little story first appeared in some little magazine? Ugh. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * . We do it probably for the same reasons we categorize films by studio, TV series by network, etc. Good Ol’factory (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah didn't find that one. Ugh. Ok, well, I'm not motivated to take on this whole tree then. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * There is something to be said for the position that all such categorizations are of limited utility. However, from certain standpoints (eg, legal copyright) the information can be useful. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:09, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Some publications are of indisputable historical and literary historical interest; some works are notable in part or whole because they were originally published in a particular forum. It's a slippery slope to be sure.  We should not categorize all works by their first publisher/venue/whatever.  It should be more like "awards", where it's only extremely notable first publications.  --Lquilter (talk) 12:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may be on to something, there. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete' akin to performer by performance; what next: news by newsbreaker (first heard on CNN? on Al Jazeerah? on BBC?), works by where first performed (at La Scala, on Broadway, in San Francisco), c'mon this is overcat. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The 1709 journal was a literary magazine of some note - hence the category, I suppose. However, with it having only two entries, I agree with GOF that the articles should be moved into the parent category, Category:Works originally published in literary magazines, and this one deleted. Colonies Chris (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC) After a little more research I've changed my mind on this one. The category should remain - there are several similar categories with only a very small number of members - but be renamed to clarify that it refers to the 1709 Tatler, and be taken out of the 'fashion magazine' tree (it was only ever there because of confusion between the two unrelated Tatlers) and moved to the 'literary magazine' tree. Colonies Chris (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that the articles should be upmerged. I just mean that Category:Works originally published in Tatler (1709) should be re-categorized as a subcategory of Category:Works originally published in literary magazines rather than of Category:Works originally published in fashion magazines. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Understood, and I fully agree. To answer your earlier question, we have two articles because the two publications have little but the name in common and are separated by almost two centuries. The 1709 journal was short-lived but of literary significance. The present, much longer-lived magazine is a fashion/gossip/lifestyle mag. No doubt it was the confusing situation of having them both in one article that caused this category to be placed in the wrong tree. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Protestant ministers by denomination

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: ALT-2: merge Category:Protestant ministers by denomination to Category:Protestant clergy by denomination to a new Category:Protestant religious leaders by denomination. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Protestant ministers by denomination to Category:Protestant clergy by denomination
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge. See recent related discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2013 May 19, where it was agreed to keep the word "ministers" for denominations that use it, but to do away with multiple tiers of categories for "ministers" and "clergy". "Foo clergy" and "Goo ministers" categories should be side-by-side at the same level depending which is the usual term in each denomination.
 * Some Protestants e.g. Lutherans & Anglicans use the word "clergy", and Category:Protestant clergy has a well-developed hierarchy, so I propose to leave that in place. However, reasonable alternatives to this nomination would be:
 * ALT-1: Reverse merge to Protestant ministers by denomination.
 * ALT-2: Merge both to new Category:Protestant religious leaders by denomination, following parent Category:Christian religious leaders.
 * – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * ALT-2 gets my vote. Keeps purer lines with the parent. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Supporting example of a category structure that uses the same term across multiple denominations. OK, so it's not "religious leaders" per ALT-2, but the point is that it could be and it shows that a term can be used across multiple denominations. See Category:Church of Ireland clergy where all orders are present - archbishops, bishops, priests, archdeacons, deans. The same is true for Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland. Even Category:Irish Presbyterian clergy is happy to be called clergy. All have Category:Irish Christian clergy as their parent. Who'd have thought that such congenial ecumenism was possible in Ireland of all places? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support: Merge both to Category:Protestant religious leaders by denomination (ALT-2) Merging into Category:Protestant clergy by denomination is the next best option (after ALT-2), but a drawback is the some denominations have deacons and consider them clergy, while others have them and and consider them non-clergy. tahc chat 22:54, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support ALT-2 until we get into a denomination or denominational family, we should use a descriptive title for the occupation. "Clergy" implies ordination, and it is arbitrary to separate ordained and unordained people who do the same thing, especially when ordination has different meanings in different denominations (in the LDS church all male members are ordained and in Presbyterianism lay elders and deacons are ordained). "Minister" has conflicting meanings for different denominations. --JFH (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Prefer clergy. We will never get a solution that perfectly fits all denominations.  However this should not dictate nthe solution for particular denominations.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Go with religious leaders. Some people are prominent in leading people in a religious sense without technically being clergy. Also, some Protestant groups do not have clergy, but they have religious leaders.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Baptist clergy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to "ministers" form. I realize this wasn't clear-cut, so let me break it down. First, the count (I know, I know—consensus is not a vote count—but you've got to start somewhere when trying to figure out overall preferences). There were three options that were presented: "ministers" (nomination), "religious leaders" (alternate proposal), and "clergy" (status quo). Since there were three options, some users (but not all) ranked their top two preferences. "Ministers" received three #1 votes and zero #2 votes. "Religious leaders" received two #1 votes and one #2 vote. "Clergy" received zero #1 votes and two #2 votes. It seems that a "no consensus" result is therefore going to be looked upon favourably by no one, since that would result in defaulting to "clergy", which no one chose as their #1 preference. So it's worthwhile here to make a decision between "ministers" and "religious leaders". On pure numbers, "ministers" was slightly favoured.  The fact that Category:Presbyterian clergy by nationality was renamed to Category:Presbyterian ministers by nationality and Category:Methodist clergy was renamed to Category:Methodist ministers lends some further strength in favour of "ministers". True, Category:Protestant ministers by denomination and Category:Protestant clergy by denomination were both renamed to Category:Protestant religious leaders by denomination, but "Protestant" is much broader than "Presbyterian", "Methodist", or "Baptist", and this close brings consistency between the latter three category trees. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Baptist clergy to Category:Baptist ministers
 * Propose renaming Category:Baptist clergy by nationality to Category:Baptist ministers by nationality
 * Propose renaming Category:Bahamian Baptist clergy to Category:Bahamian Baptist ministers
 * Propose renaming Category:New Zealand Baptist clergy to Category:New Zealand Baptist ministers
 * Propose merging Category:Baptist clergy from the United States to Category:Baptist ministers from the United States
 * Propose merging Category:Southern Baptist clergy to Category:Southern Baptist ministers
 * Propose renaming Category:Baptist clergy by period to Category:Baptist ministers by period Category:Baptist ministers by century
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge/rename Baptist clergy to minsters. See recent related discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2013 May 19, where it was agreed to keep the word "ministers" for denominations that use it, but to do away with multiple tiers of categories for "ministers" and "clergy". Of the 17 pages in Southern Baptist clergy, only Monroe E. Dodd is identified in the lead as a clergyman; most use the words minister or pastor. Some of the nominated category pages make a distinction e.g. "Clergy are Christians who are formally ordained for leadership within local congregations, and so are authorized to perform weddings, baptisms, or funerals," but this is probably not consistently applied, nor do I find it useful. As for the sub-cats of Category:Baptist clergy by period, they can be dealt with speedily if this nomination is agreed. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * ALT-2 gets my vote here too, even though it wasn't offered. Category:Baptist religious leaders Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: Would you upmerge to, and change  to ? The term "ministers" is widely accepted among Baptists and Methodists, just as "clergy" is for others such as Anglicans. The previous CFD supported keeping the main words that are used in each "sect" of the church. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:17, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. Frankly, yes. The logic is inescapable, the meaning clear and the language neutral. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I have notified Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Anabaptist work group – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge both to Category:Baptist religious leaders (ALT-2). Failing that option, then "reverse-merge" into Category:Baptist clergy as the next best option. Since Baptists are just the sort of group to make clear that all Christians are ministers, dropping Baptist clergy would be a bad idea. It misses the point to say that a recent related discussion agreed use terms like "ministers" for only denominations that use it, since "Baptist" is NOT a denomination for this pupose. It is a denominational family in which its many subgroups use use "ministers" to mean different things, and a good number of local Baptist churches do not even belong to a larger denomonation. "Southern Baptist" is denomination but people within the large SBC also "ministers" to mean different things. Yes, many many Baptist clergy the words minister or pastor, as those terms (or at least minister) are less high-and-mighty high-faluten sounding (at least to Baptists). Minister is a humbler term, as we all are (or should be) ministers. I have never ment a Baptist pastor to claim he was not clergy, but if anyone were to create a Baptist deacons cat someday (deacons are common in Baptist churches), then I think a [Baptist religious leaders] cat would be better since Baptist deacons are typically not considered clergy, but are typically considered leaders. Be careful categorizing Baptists. ;) tahc chat 23:24, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that Baptist deacons can be considered leaders, "servant-leaders" according to both the Baptist Union in the UK and the Baptist Distinctives website in the US . However, being a deacon is unlikely to be defining for an individual, so I oppose using "Baptist religious leaders" as that would widen the category beyond what is wanted: pastors = ministers = clergy. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note is actually by century, so I propose it go to  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfhutson (talk • contribs) 18:20, 14 June 2013
 * I agree with the last word being changed to "century". Most but not all of Category:Christian clergy by period should be renamed/merged that way. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, good work: they are now so nominated at Categories for discussion/Log/2013 June 14. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Those have gone through, so I have changed this nomination to match: Category:Baptist ministers by century. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Prefer minister in this case because I think that is the most usual term. Second preference: clergy.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: in support of the nomination, Categories for discussion/Log/2013 July 16 had a simple decision to rename Category:Presbyterian clergy by nationality to Category:Presbyterian ministers by nationality. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Likewise Methodists, below. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Go with ministers. All involved will be ministers in some way, whether they are "religious leaders" might be harder to say, and clergy just is the wrong term.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Methodist clergy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge.  There seem to be several unresolved questions, but a merge was clearly indicated.  Looks like some cleanup may be needed.  If that reveals a need for a new nomination so be it. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Methodist clergy to Category:Methodist ministers
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge for the same reasons given above for Baptists, and speedily rename all sub-cats starting with "Methodist clergy" afterwards. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * ALT-2 gets my vote here too, even though it wasn't offered. Category:Methodist religious leaders Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I have notified Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Methodism work group – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: are bishops not also clergy? I would prefer a set-up similar to Category:Anglican clergy with most articles being moved to "ministers" or "bishops" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazhk (talk • contribs) 01:14, 8 June 2013‎
 * Bishops are a sub-cat of clergy. Under my proposal, would be come a sub-cat of Methodist ministers. Since you mention the Anglican categories, I don't see them as perfect either, and intend to start a separate discussion on whether the layer of  is needed as well as . – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:25, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge both to Category:Methodist religious leaders (ALT-2). Failing that option, then "reverse-merge" into Category:Methodist clergy as the next best option. I expect some (if not many) different Methodist groups use "ministers" to mean different things. Either way, yes bishops are a subcat of religious leaders/clergy. tahc chat 23:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge - preferably as nom; if not reverse merge. These are clearlyu much the same thing.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: in support of the nomination, Categories for discussion/Log/2013 July 16 had a simple decision to rename Category:Presbyterian clergy by nationality to Category:Presbyterian ministers by nationality. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mascot Hall of Fame inductees

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting mascot hall of fame inductees


 * Nominator's rationale: Not a WP:DEFINING characteristic (see WP:OC). For info: there is a list at Mascot Hall of Fame. DexDor (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Halls of Fame typically recognize notability in a given field; they don't confer new notability.  --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


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Category:Modern military equipment of Germany

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Modern military equipment of Germany to Category:Post–Cold War military equipment of Germany
 * Nominator's rationale: The term "modern" is very ambiguous - which leads to anomalies like this category (which says "approximately since 1990") containing articles like Bergmann 1896 (via this and this). There are already some post-Cold War categories (e.g. Category:Military vehicles of the post–Cold War period). DexDor (talk) 04:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


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Category:ABC Sport

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:59, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting abc sport


 * Nominator's rationale: That a sport (e.g. Bowls) has been broadcast on ABC Sport is not a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the sport. DexDor (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete with prejudice Wow. Classic not-defining example. Performer-by-performance also in a way. Delete delete delete.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.