Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 November 2



Category:Joss Whedon

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (NAC) Armbrust The Homunculus 11:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting joss whedon


 * Nominator's rationale: Too small - per the guidelines eponymous categories should only be created if there's enough content, which there isn't here.  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 22:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - not needed for the single article and the Works sub-category. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 19:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OC. All related articles already in the works sub-cat, which is sufficient here. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 17:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:English Anglican priests

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

As it stands, this category is labelled as a category-by-nationality, but as a sub-category of Category:Church of England clergy it is also used a by-denomination set (grouping priests of the Church of England). Removing this category from Category:Church of England clergy would remove most CoE priests from the COE categories; but renaming it per the nominator's proposal would mean that those English people who are priests in another Anglican denomination would me miscategorised. The parent Category:Anglican priests by nationality is an assortment of categories by nationality and categories by denomination, and it seems that only in the case of Scotland do we have both: a denominational Category:Scottish Episcopalian priests and a nationality Category:Scottish Anglican priests. Some sort of centralised discussion is needed to decide how Anglican priests should be categorised, so I will open an RFC ... and notify WikiProject Anglicanism, who should have been notified of this discussion. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. There is broad agreement that the current category doesn't work, but no agreement on the solution.
 * The RFC is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * '''Propose re-naming Category:English Anglican priests to Category:Church of England priests
 * Nominator's rationale: This title confuses two things: Englishness and priesthood. The priesthood relates to the Anglican Communion. I assume that the particular denomination of that Communion is the Church of England. Any priests of the Anglican Communion not of that denomination ought to be diffused to the correct denomination (e.g. Category:Scottish Episcopalian priests). I also assume that the nationality of the priest is not germane to the category. That is, a Ugandan-born national can be a priest of the Church of England, so would not necessarily be a member of Category:Ugandan Anglican priests, though could conceivably be members of both categories. Similarly, English-born nationals who are priests can be members of an Anglican denomination that is not necessarily the Church of England and so would be diffused to the category of that denomination. Follows the tree structure of Category:Church of England deans, Category:Church of England provosts and Category:Church of England clergy.  Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose—The nominator's argument is based on assumptions that do not hold. 1) The Anglican Communion is made up of many member churches throughout the world and not all of them are the "Church of England". While Anglicanism has its roots in the English Church, it is a denomination that has a much wider geographic basis. The only Anglican denominations that are outside the Anglican Communion are those of the Continuing Anglicans. All other Anglicans are a part of the single Anglican denomination regardless of what the national body calls themselves. If a diocese looks to Canterbury/York, then it is a part of that single denomination. 2) A look at the parent categories should swiftly dispell the notion that the "nationality of the priest is not germane to the category". An English Anglican can be a priest in New Zealand, Uganda, Mexico or England. A Church of England priest can be from any nationality, but will principally be a priest in England. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 00:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment So the rationale for the category is that it is a "by nationality" structure? It would seem then that the Category:Church of Ireland priests is an anomaly. I don't know of any CoI priests that are not Irish. The CoI does not have many Ugandan priests to my knowledge. So maybe there is a need for a denominational structure within Anglicanism to cater for priests regardless of their nationality. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * this is just the tip of the iceberg Category:Anglican priests by nationality is a complete train wreck which tries to obscure church affiliation in favor of national origin, so that the sole member of Category:German Anglican priests is in fact a dean in the Anglican Church of Australia. There is a heirarchy of dean categories, by diocese, but the dioceses are not organized by church. But the subcategory Category:American Episcopal priests is by affiliation, not national origin. Affiliation is far more important and for anyone who is a priest or deacon, it's going to be at the national church level (the bishops are rolled up by dioceses as a rule). I'm not sure that we need a separate priests category (as distinct from the clergy category) but somehow this needs to be rectified. Seyasirt (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree that the affiliation is far more important than the nationality. But, as you say, the entire tree is a mess. Do you start again or create a parallel structure? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom we'd never have Category:Venetian Roman Catholic priests or Category:Venetian Catholic priests or any such... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Just because a priest is English does not mean he will be part of the Church of England. There have been many English priests who worked in Zambia and other places in the Province of Central Africa. What nationality a priest is and what national church they are part of are not at all the same thing.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:22, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom, but purge (or split). This category is far too large and needs as much as possible splitting out, for example by removing those who became bishops to a more specific categories.  Similarly C of E Clergy who served in missionary roles abroad need a more specific category.  The vast majority of C of E clergy will be English and serving in England. This is clearly a denominational, not a national category.  Clergy in the course of their careers are liable to move from one diocese to another, so that a split by diocese would not work.  Those who are not ethnic Englishmen may need a category by ethnicity of origin.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom as an Anglican priest in England is a priest in the (established) Church of England; while elsewhere the other subcategories (not changed) refer to priests in the Anglican church (denomination) in that country not priests elsewhere from that country (NB: Low Church Anglicans might prefer to talk about clergymen or ministers not priests!). This follows the pattern of Category:Anglican churches in Europe where the English subcategory is Category:Church of England churches and other countries have Anglican churches eg Category:Anglican churches in Wales. The proposed title also makes it clear that Church of England priests do not have to be ethnically “English” as the title “English Anglican priests” could suggest. While “CofE” was shorthand for Anglicanism eg in New Zealand the term Anglican now denotes a worldwide denomination. We do not need to sort Anglican (or other) priests in a country by their ethnic origin or country of origin. Hugo999 (talk) 09:57, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Support renaming, but we need a separate category structure for any non-CofE Anglican priests who have been placed here due to their English nationality. The rise of various separatist Anglican movements has necessitated a distinction between (1) priests of the Church of England and its international cognates and (2) other Anglican priests (e.g., priests of the Continuing Anglican movement). I agree with Hugo999 that we do not need to sort Anglican (or other) priests in a country by their ethnic origin or country of origin, but I note that there are plenty of other categories that do just that.... (We may not have Category:Venetian Roman Catholic priests, but there are plenty of categories like it contained in Category:Roman Catholic priests by nationality.) --Orlady (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A container category Category:Anglican Communion priests could be created to house this category, plus categories for priests of other national bodies within the Anglican Communion. --Orlady (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I agree with others that there is a broader problem here. However, while most priests who are both English and Anglican are indeed Church of England priests, many are not, and many Church of England priests are not English, so after the suggested renaming every one of the huge number of pages in this category would need to be reviewed. Who would do that work? In any event, this one category cannot sensibly be renamed in isolation, considering that we have Category:Welsh Anglican priests‎, Category:Scottish Anglican priests‎, Category:Palestinian Anglican priests‎, and so forth. Moonraker (talk) 20:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Universities and colleges by association

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

(Yes, I did participate in this discussion and make a !vote, but since I was the only editor to support the nomination, I don't see any problem in recognising that there is a clear consensus for that I was wrong). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: keep for now, without prejudice to a renomination in smaller chunks.


 * Propose deleting universities and colleges by association

Note: This list does not include categories already at CFD
 * Propose deleting Category:Asia-Pacific Association for International Education
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Indian Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Pacific Rim Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Professional Schools of International Affairs
 * Propose deleting Category:City University Network
 * Propose deleting Category:Coimbra Group
 * Propose deleting Category:Commonwealth Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Consortium for North American Higher Education Collaboration
 * Propose deleting Category:Distance Education and Training Council
 * Propose deleting Category:Global U8 Consortium
 * Propose deleting Category:International Council of Universities of Saint Thomas Aquinas
 * Propose deleting Category:Million+
 * Propose deleting Category:Russell Group
 * Propose deleting Category:Universitas 21
 * Propose deleting Category:University of South Wales Group
 * Propose deleting Category:Worldwide Universities Network
 * Propose deleting Category:American Association of State Colleges and Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Associated Colleges of the Midwest
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of American Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Independent Colleges and Universities in Massachusetts members
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Independent Technological Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Association of Public and Land-Grant Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Christian College Consortium
 * Propose deleting Category:Coalition of Urban and Metropolitan Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Committee on Institutional Cooperation
 * Propose deleting Category:Council of Independent Colleges
 * Propose deleting Category:Greater Cincinnati Consortium of Colleges and Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools
 * Propose deleting Category:National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities members
 * Propose deleting Category:National Association of Schools of Music
 * Propose deleting Category:New England Association of Schools and Colleges
 * Propose deleting Category:North Central Association of Colleges and Schools
 * Propose deleting Category:Oak Ridge Associated Universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Seven Sister Colleges
 * Propose deleting Category:Urban 13 universities
 * Propose deleting Category:Wisconsin Association of Independent Colleges and Universities


 * Nominator's rationale: That a university/college is (currently) a member of an association is not a permanent WP:DEFINING characteristic of the university/college. This sort of thing would be more appropriate as lists in articles about the association (with dates etc) than in categories (if it is necessary at all in WP as in most/all cases we can link to an official website containing a list).  Note: It would be much better to create any such lists from RSs (e.g. the association's websites), rather than from the current content of these categories; so it is not necessary to listify these categories.  For info: Many of the membership lists are already in WP (example).  For info: A previous CFD for such a category is Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_October_16. Note: CFD in 2006 was about name of categories rather than the existence of this category. DexDor (talk) 06:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Membership of these associations is usually transient and non-defining. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep and discuss the categories individually or in better-defined groupings than this long list. I agree that some of these organization memberships are ephemeral and non-defining, but some of the association affiliations truly are defining and essentially permanent in nature. For example, the membership of the Category:Seven Sister Colleges is as well-defined and permanent as the membership of the Ivy League; being one of "the Seven Sisters" is a defining characteristic for those schools. Several of these categories (including Category:Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, Category:New England Association of Schools and Colleges, and Category:North Central Association of Colleges and Schools) are organized around U.S. regional accreditation organizations; most of their members consider their membership to be permanent -- many institutions have been members for their entire history or for the entire history of the association (whichever is longer), institutions cannot choose to switch to a different regional accreditor, and they will fight to keep their membership. Some of the smaller organizations, such as Category:Associated Colleges of the Midwest and Category:Christian College Consortium also appear to be highly stable and/or defining for the member schools. Rather than discussing these categories as an entire group, look at them in a more focused fashion. --Orlady (talk) 23:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Close and re-nominate in smaller groups. As Orlady says, the various natures of these groups is such that they shouldn't be discussed all at once. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 19:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Close and Renominate Separately: I'm all for with eliminating whole category trees if warranted but I'm seeing a few here that *are* notable (e.g. Land Grant, Seven Sisters, regional accrediation boards) mixed in with a bunch of categories that should go. RevelationDirect (talk) 05:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Close per previous comments, I would argue that some of these groups are defining but they should be discussed separately. Aloneinthewild (talk) 20:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.