Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 October 25



Category:Somalian emigrants

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. -- Black Falcon (talk) 03:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Somalian emigrants to Category:Somali emigrants
 * Nominator's rationale: more common denonym Pass a Method   talk  23:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. In this CFD, "Somalian" was specifically selected for the nationality to avoid confusion with the Somali ethnicity. The head category is and all the subcategories conform to this.  is a disambiguation category. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose This form was chosen to avoid confusion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Health centers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: [[Image:Symbol move vote.svg|16px|link=|alt=]] Relisted to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 November 3. -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Health centers to Category:Clinics
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. The main article appears to be clinic. Health center is a redirect to community health center which clearly states that it is a clinic with certain staffing.  I suspect that this is more of a grouping of liked named organizations with the current name.  So better to create the broader category and then subcategorize as needed in the future. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:27, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment -- Despite the article merger, I am not sure that the two are quite identical. Different counties may use the terms in slightly different ways: in some clinics may be a subset of health centres; in others, vice versa.  Before a merger can take place, someone needs to check that all the articles fit the target.  I would also be happier if both of these were primarily cintainer categories with the articles moved down the trees to more spoecific categories.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Not all clinics are healthcare clinics. For example, in the US, football clinics are very popular. Surely there are other "clinics" also that are not related to healthcare. Soranoch (talk) 23:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Organizations accused of piracy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 19:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting organizations accused of piracy


 * Nominator's rationale: Categorization for something potentially libelous should require more than accusations - which are, IMO, inherently non-defining as well, making this categorization doubly inappropriate.  Mbinebri   talk &larr; 18:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * delete we dont have "accused of" categories in general.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete purely subjective - by whom? when? I do believe the Royal Navy was so accused as a causus belli of the war of 1812. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete (creator) - I created it to avoid problems with categorizing Greenpeace and other environmental organizations under "Piracy" (as had been inserted by another editor) but now that the specific issue is a non-issue, this should go away. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as being potentially libellous and very vague. To the average user who is adding categories to articles without checking their requirements (which is generally me), does this apply to software piracy? Aquatic piracy? Aircraft hijacking? All of the above? Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 09:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Accusations are very easy, especially over the long time of some organizations.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete If it's been "accused" by notable experts such as governmental agencies then the cat should be "Pirate" not "accused of". Same is true for Category:Organizations accused of eco-terrorism76.112.8.146 (talk) 23:26, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - No. That would be libelous. An accusation is not proof of anything and we do not place living people or organizations into categories which create a presumption of guilt or wrongdoing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * comment It would be if it was just some Joe.. but a US judge has called them "Pirates". That is the official opinion of the US courts. This should be merged then, allowing SSCS to be in the pirate category. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 20:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Question - "Categorization for something potentially libelous should require more than accusations" - If this category is not appropriate, should an organisation accused of piracy instead be placed into ? -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 01:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Absent a conviction for a crime, no. That would be libelous. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Then deletion of this template would cause a problem, as there are those who will insist that Sea Shepherd Conservation Society be moved into . -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 02:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It won't be. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You've seen and been involved in the discussions at Talk:Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, so you know that there will be insistence on its inclusion in that category. A natural result of the deletion of this category is that Sea Shepherd Conservation Society be upmerged into, it won't simply be removed from the hierarchy. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 02:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That someone insists something does not make that thing compatible with Wikipedia policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Being incompatible with Wikipedia policy doesn't stop something happening. I'm not saying this category shouldn't be deleted, but the current discussion at Talk:Sea Shepherd Conservation Society should demonstrate that unless other editors are willing to support policy, content that is incompatible with Wikipedia policy will be added. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 08:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Because of related crimes, in an official ruling to uphold an injunction, a US judge has called them "Pirates". That is the official opinion of the US courts. Wouldn't that be good enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.8.146 (talk • contribs)
 * A court opinion in a civil case does not equate to a finding of criminal guilt. See, for example, O.J. Simpson, who was acquitted in criminal court but found liable in civil court. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:07, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, allegations may be discussed in an article, but such views should be explicitly attributed and any contrary views presented. However, categories cannot balance an allegation in this way; an article is either in a category or not in in it, and no nuance or qualification is possible. The category system should not be used for POV issues such as this, because it cannot meet our editorial standards. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete As the nominator has said, "categorization for something potentially libelous should require more than accusations". For this reason, deletion of the category should not result in upmerging of, its only subcat, to . -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 08:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. As I noted in the CFD discussion of Category:Organizations accused of eco-terrorism, anyone can accuse anyone of anything, and if we kept categories for all such allegations, pretty much every article on a person or organisation would have a plethora of such categories.
 * Delete. Way too problematic and not very useful. Kaldari (talk) 05:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete -- I suspect that this has been created following the inciudent when Russia stormed a Green Peace vessel, and then accused those of it of piracy; however I see that the sole member is another activist body. On reflection Russia has altered this to hooliganism.  This is ultimately a POV category and potentially libellous of those accused but not convicted.  We thus cannot allow it.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Films about child care occupations

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (NAC) Armbrust The Homunculus 12:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting films about child care occupations


 * Nominator's rationale: Overly specific, narrow category with only a couple potential entries. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 17:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete not a notable genre, and suffers the same problems of the "films about" categories. Would a biopic of Princess Diana showing her child care fit in? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Too vague.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per Carlos....William 14:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename Based on the actual content, this seems to be Category:Films featuring babysitting. Then we could add several others, such as Halloween (1978 film) which has a babysitter protagonist. And Carlos, if it was a genre it would not belong in Category:Films by topic to begin with. There is a different Category:Films by genre to cover genres. This is about subject matter. Dimadick (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I am surprised we even have "Child care occupations in fiction" category. I will abstain here, I agree the topic may not be notable, but are categories supposed to respect WP:N? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Dimadick is correct to describe the contents of this category as films that feature babysitting as a plot element, as opposed to films about babysitting. Adventures in Babysitting is a teen comedy, The Babysitter is an thriller, The Babysitters "follows a teenager who turns her babysitting service into a call girl service", and so on. Quite frankly, I don't understand why we categorize films by genre and also by topic. If a particular theme is not recognized by reliable sources as a distinct genre, it is original research on our part to call it a topic and categorize on the basis of it. -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedia categories named after women

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedia categories named after women


 * Nominator's rationale: Recently created category. We do not need a gender split of administrative categories, which will just needlessly expose their contents to the possibility of ghettoization, and calls for "why don't we have one for men?" - we already divide the eponymous cats by nationality, etc, so I see zero value in this one and it will cause more problems that it solves. There are already extant gendered categories for most jobs, nationalities, and even some jobs+nationalities, but we don't need gendered categories for an administrative list of eponymous cats. This link, while not a perfect search, indicates that there are at least 1000 eponymous people categories, so if we create a male counterpart, which would be the only logical thing to do here if this one is kept, it would mean adding an additional gendered-category to ~1000 new eponymous categories, and keeping this maintained over time in addition to the extant nationality and occupation trees (Category:Wikipedia categories named after people by nationality and Category:Wikipedia_categories_named_after_people_by_occupation). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete This is just not useful. We do not need this type of tracking of eponymous categories. The by nationalities split is enough.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * deleteper nom and JPL. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete not needed. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete In complete agreement with Obi-Wan Kenobi. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 21:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - this category is a bad joke, and nothing more. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 23:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not in the least bit useful. Kaldari (talk) 05:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Too bad it couldn't be a speedy delete tho. This is a great example of when XfD is a waste of everyones time. Mike (talk) 14:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:South America television navigational boxes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:South America television navigational boxes to Category:Central and South America television navigational boxes
 * Nominator's rationale: We need to include Central America TV stations somewhere: we can't rename this "Latin American", as this would include Mexico, and having a "Central America" category on its own would be awkward (it's not really a continent) NSH002 (talk) 12:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * oppose Central American and the caribbean are normally included as part of North America: List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_North_America, and this is how most other categories that deal with this are handled. You could have a sub-category under NA to group the central american ones together, but I don't think it's needed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator's rationale. Obiwankenobi's proposal doesnt resolve the "Mexico" issue♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Mexico would go under north america, along with the rest of central america. We handle this the same way in dozens of other categories - the standard continents are NA, SA, Asia, Europe, Oceania, Africa, Antarctica. Central american and the Caribbean are included as part of NA as a matter of practice.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've now moved all of the central American ones under North America. See this for example: Template:Television in North America - notice how all of the central American and Caribbean countries are there. The original problem posed by the nominator doesn't exist anymore.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Misleading. The problem was there before I changed the categories (it seemed to me a minor non-controversial bit of clean-up as part of a much wider clean-up exercise). --NSH002 (talk) 23:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, culturally it's an absurdity that these countries should be considered part of North America. I've been to both Nicaragua and Costa Rica, and they would laugh in your face if you told them they were in North America. The whole idea is ludicrous beyond belief. If practice is to do so (and I haven't checked) then it badly needs to be changed. In any case, the proposed renaming avoids any argument about whether CA is in NA or SA, so the renaming neatly solves the problem (if there is one) in this particular case. --NSH002 (talk) 18:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You should ask them to call up the geographers then to complain. Note that the container is Category:Television_navigational_boxes_by_continent, which contains Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania, South America, North America - in other words, the standard continents, as defined geographically, are how we group every single other television station. There's no "But Asia is so different, India has nothing to do with China, Indians would laugh in your face if you said their TV stations should be put together with the Chinese ones" etc.. North America is geographically a single entity, reaching down to SA - that's how geographers define it, and what people might say in a bar in Nicaragua has nothing to do with our categorization schemes. As I noted on your talk page, if you really think a cultural grouping is needed here, create a DIFFERENT parallel category for Latin American TV stations and stick all of the LA countries (including Mexico) in there, but the continental groupings should stay. There isn't a debate about whether CA is in the North American or South American continent, that debate exists only in your head. Please recall, this is a category to group TEMPLATES, so the chances that a regular editor will be perusing it is rather slim. Regular editors do see this ==> Template:Television in North America however, and no-one has complained about inclusion of CA within.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * False logic. The correct definition depends on context, as any professional geographer will tell you. Your argument re China/India/etc is irrelevant, since nobody there disputes that they are in Asia. On the other hand, Latin Americans, whether in Central or South America, feel very distinct (with good reason) from North Americans. It is unbelievably offensive to call them "North Americans", or to categorise them as such. --NSH002 (talk) 22:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I am aware of Category:Television_navigational_boxes_by_continent, which is why I proposed to rename this category, and so neatly and with very little effort completely solve the problem here. No need to waste time setting up parallel categories. --NSH002 (talk) 18:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. Incidentally, I have never been to any bar in Nicaragua or Costa Rica. --NSH002 (talk) 19:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note further that the category already contains Template:CATV Central and South America, which again supports the proposed renaming. --NSH002 (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Template:CATV Central and South America is currently in both NA and SA categories, which is reasonable solution since that particular template crosses continental borders, but Template:Television in North America is another example of one that remains within the package.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Misleading, it was only in the SA cat until you added the NA one here. --NSH002 (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many examples where we do not lump together Central America as if it were North America such as Afro-Latin American, a bit of a misnomer really otherwise it wouldnt be called Central America and the countries would be treated as North American which in practice is not the case even if a few academics insist that it is. We dont allow geopgraphers to define what is common usage and nor is this a geographical encyclopedia. Just looking in the news today I found this which geographically defines North America and Latin America so there is clearly no worldwide consensus that Central America is North America. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 19:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The categories by continent are geographical. As noted before, you can also have cultural groupings, such as Latin American XXX, but that doesn't preclude use of geographic categories as well.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * In fact geographers recognise more than one definition of North America, and the correct definition will depend on context. In some contexts, "North America" means "USA and Canada," or even, sometimes, just the USA. In other contexts, they will use "North America" to mean everything excluding Central America and South America, and in others your "geographical" definition. Note, for example, that List of sovereign states and dependent territories in North America, which you cited above, states explicitly that it uses "the most inclusive definition of North America". Professional geographers will use the definition most apprpriate to the context in which they are working. Similarly we should use an arrangement (in this case, of TV stations) that best fits the context. --NSH002 (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I don't think we should go against the standard continental groupings, used in every other set of container categories that you can find, to suddenly decide that just for TV templates, central america is not part of north america. We have a long standing consensus on this issue, as can be demonstrated by looking at any central american category, and you will notice it's parent is north america. I already pointed out the possibility of a parallel system for latin america if you really really feel it is in the best interest of the wiki to have these little TV templates in multiple categories, but creating a hand-rolled-custom-different-than-any-other-categorization just for TV templates in contravention of long-standing consensus on these matters is ridiculous.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * comment Examples of central american categories being parented by north america: Category:Countries_in_Central_America, Category:Health_in_Central_America, Category:Central_American_culture. In fact, I haven't found any central american categories that don't have North America as a parent. Some also have latin america as a parent, which as I've noted before would be an option here, if really needed, to create an additional "cultural" grouping.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I looked at those. "Countries" and "culture" have Category:Countries in the Americas and Category:Culture of the Americas respectively among their parents. That's the correct structure, as it avoids any dispute over whether CA belongs in North America or South America (answer: it depends on context). They also have NA as parent cat, which is debateable, but can be tolerated as a convenience to our readers, but cannot be regarded as defining. You refer to a "long-standing consensus" - can you please point me to the discussion(s) where this consensus was established? If there really is such a consensus, then it needs to be modified to take account of context. What is ridiculous, and totally unacceptable, is putting these in a "North America" category in the wrong context. --NSH002 (talk) 20:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Consensus doesn't only come from discussion; it mainly comes from the accrual and persistence of edits - see WP:EDITCONSENSUS. e.g. "Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus.". As to the other parents like "the Americas", that is just avoiding the issue, it is not made to avoid dispute - because we have overarching categories that are not continental in nature, but in this case, we have a particular, specific, continental grouping, and that continental grouping should follow the template used everywhere else, you've forwarded no reason for an exception here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And WP:CCC, consensus can change. In fact, from what you say, there doesn't seem to be the strength of consensus you've been claiming. --NSH002 (talk) 23:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You can also read Central America, which states It is the southernmost, isthmian portion of the North American continent, which connects with South America on the southeast; or Brittanica, which states: "Central America, southernmost region of North America, lying between Mexico and South America and comprising Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Belize." --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't preclude the category being called "Central and South America xxx" as per the nom. Problem solved, quick and easy. --NSH002 (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, you can also solve the problem by doing what every other category here does - put Central America as a subset of North America, and keep things clearly geographically classified according to how reliable sources categorize them. You haven't yet explained why TV station templates are so different from every other topic on the wiki to merit a special exception and unique grouping (e.g. Central + South America). Are you aware that there are countries in Central and South America which aren't part of Latin America, and don't speak spanish? Your so-called "cultural" grouping of Central+South America is thus rather flawed - it is instead a sort of invented merging of two geographical units (one a sub-continent, one a continent), couched in a claim that together this somehow forms a cultural area, all based on a trip to Costa Rica and chatting up a few locals?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I am saying nothing of the kind. I am not saying that there should be a special exemption. Why don't you listen more carefully, and think through what people are saying? I have aleady told you that I think the treatment of central american categories does need to be reviewed as a whole. As it happens, this has only arisen because, on the NSH002 a/c, I am working on another task (a slow, long-term one requiring careful thought: a clean-up project on all the remaining templates in the HLIST tracking category, to which this proposed rename was an incidental helpful side change, a trivial no-brainer). So such a review is not a high priority for me at the moment. Remember, I have lost over a day's worth of productive wiki-editing thanks to you. Have you any idea how insulting, and downright wrong, what you have just said is? You assume that I am "inventing" things "based on a trip to Costa Rica" (again, you didn't read what I said) and "chatting up a few locals" (I'll say it again, you didn't read what I said). You don't know all the factors I base my views on, only what I happen to have mentioned so far. If you take the trouble to look at my work, you will see that I am a very careful, thorough, meticulous editor, and a stickler for accuracy. This makes me a slow editor. I like to take my time to think things through properly. As it happens, I have already started to think about developing a new guideline for central american categories - say WP:CENTAMCATS. Normally I might outline here my thoughts so far on what such a guideline might look like, but the unproductive, time-wasting, nature of the discussion here suggests this is not going to be a worthwhile exercise at this stage, or at least not until I have had time to explore further, think it through and expand it. Or maybe until some cooler heads arrive in this discussion. As for your speculation on my geographical knowledge, I will treat it with the contempt it deserves - you could hardly be more mistaken. --NSH002 (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * ok, if you are saying most/all Central American categories should no longer be parented by NA, you'll have to forward some more evidence or reasoning. For now the best I've seen is 'I've been to Costa Rica and they would laugh if you said they were north American' - Which is not the claim being made here. Dont critique me b/c the only arguments i can respond to are those you've offered - it's not my job to troll through your contributions to confirm whether you are careful or not. I'd suggest dropping this particular issue and starting a broader community discussion at talk:categorization (notifying appropriate projects) about this issue if you feel a broader set of changes is warranted across the category tree - but chipping away at it and creating this one unique-in-the-wiki category is not the way to get the result you desire. I think consistency is appreicated by those who !vote here. I've tried to suggest the option which has been used in other places, which is to create a parallel Latin American cat and double categorize all of the templates in both continental and cultural/language-based groupings, but you rejected that. Remember, the existing structure is the result of hundreds of editors over many years, so if you want to toss out the basic assumptions you need more than 'I think this is ridiculous, and so do people I met in Nicaragua'--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "if you are saying most/all Central American categories should no longer be parented by NA" No, I am saying no such thing, but I am saying that it is (generally) highly offensive to place "North America(n) something" categories directly on articles/templates/whatever on Central America topics. When I visited Nicaragua, the place was a war zone, FFS, so it is not surprising that people are sensitive about this issue; they have all suffered, to varying extents (Costa Rica the least), at the hands of the norteamericanos. BTW, I am criticising you because you are making false assumptions about me, and then proceeding as if those assumptions were true, in the process wasting huge amounts of my time and energy. But I do agree that continuing this discussion here is pointless (I was really hoping that some category experts here would pick up on the faults in the present structure, and start work on framing a new structure) and that a broader discussion at talk:categorization is the way to go. It is not a priority for me at the moment, so it may take me a while to develop my thoughts. Meanwhile I hope other category experts might have a go at tackling the challenge. --NSH002 (talk) 08:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) P.S. It is not a good idea to criticise, or make asumptions about, other editors without first looking at their contributions, user page, and so on (actually, not usually a good idea regardless).
 * I only was responding to the evidence you posted here, so if I made bad assumptions I apologize but you'd make it easier on yourself if you provided deeper evidence for your claims. Again you come in and claim just now that putting 'north American x' on a Central American country is deeply offensive - but to whom? Where? Why? Why have Central Americans not spoken up about this before? Where are the angry letters to Britannica, to ask them to stop claiming CA is part of NA? why do we have dozens or maybe hundreds of 'north American X' templates that are chock full of Caribbean and Central American countries? Where is the outcry if this is so offensive? I think you're making too big a deal out of this, and I haven't see evidence of great offense - but even if we did offend some sensitive ppl, frankly, I don't care that much - there are many things here that offend people, but our job is to be a neutral encyclopedia. Some ppl in latin america feel the use of the term American should not just mean US citizen, but guess what? we dont care - we go by the standard and most common definition of 'american' in the english language. some irish people hate the term British Isles, and are offended as shit to be considered part of those isles, and trust me, they have made their views known in spades, do we delete all the british isles categories or remove Ireland from within so as to not hurt their feelings? Nyet. ukrainians from Kiev want us to call it Kyev, as the russian transliteration Kiev reminds them of their oppression, and they have complained again and again, but the community says 'common name'. i could go on...Geographers tell us that CA forms part of NA, so that's what we write, and that's how we group things (for the same reason we put Israel in west Asia, surrounded by countries they dont like that much, even if they'd prefer to be in Europe). Ultimately there are oodles of ways to group countries together, but for categorization purposes in almost all cases we stick by standard continental groups. There's a big diff btw sub-catting Honduras under NA, and saying that Hondurans themselves are norteamericanos - so we shouldn't mix up a geographical identity with how an individual might identify.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Your last statement re Honduras completely undermines your argument, IMO, Obiwankenobi. The only discussion I have had ain abar on this subject was in Guatemala and the Guatemalans were offended in being called American, which they associated with ppl from the USA, so perhaps bar arguments arent relevant either♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure I understand your point. The point I was making was that it was claimed to be offensive to call central americans "norteamericanos" - the point I was making is there is a huge difference between calling someone X to their face, and classifying their television stations as a sub-category of the continent in which geographers agree their country lies. If CA countries being categorized as "north american" is offensive, we have several hundred categories to clean up, and as noted before I've yet to see any other complaints about this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Alternate The ITU (http://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx), a United Nations agency for the coordination of radio-frequency allocations for communication. The ITU has five administrative areas Region A: The Americas, Region B: Western Europe, Region C: Eastern Europe and North Asia, Region D: Africa, and Region E: Asia and Australasia. Very likely the ITU has hammered out an acceptable regional category division in a much more difficult discussion than the one here. There is no particular reason for having a strictly continental division of television stations; the ITU division is workable, of long standing, and is in rough agreement with the dominant broadcast standards and frequencies within each region. The current discussion is getting smoky. - Neonorange (talk) 18:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Meghalaya politician stubs

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Withdrawn by nominator. Dawynn (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting meghalaya politician stubs


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Only one tagged article. Propose upmerging template.  No prejudice against recreation once 60 articles tagged (minimum threshold for stub categories). Dawynn (talk) 12:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I see that is overloaded.  The state politician categories were created prematurely, but in a valid attempt to relieve the load on the country category.  Sorting the country category should fill many of the currently underpopulated state categories. Dawynn (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Undersized Turkey geography stub categories

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Keep. Dawynn (talk) 19:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting ağrı province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting balıkesir province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting bingöl province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting bitlis province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting burdur province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting bursa province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting çanakkale province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting çankırı province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting çorum province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting denizli province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting diyarbakır province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting düzce province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting edirne province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting elazığ province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting erzincan province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting erzurum province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting eskişehir province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting gaziantep province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting giresun province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting gümüşhane province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting hakkâri province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting hatay province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting iğdır province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting isparta province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kahramanmaraş province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting karabük province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting karaman province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kars province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kayseri province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kilis province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kırıkkale province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kırklareli province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kırşehir province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kocaeli province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting kütahya province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting malatya province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting manisa province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting mardin province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting muğla province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting muş province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting nevşehir province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting ordu province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting osmaniye province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting rize province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting sakarya province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting şanlıurfa province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting siirt province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting sinop province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting şırnak province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting sivas province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting tekirdağ province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting tokat province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting trabzon province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting tunceli province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting uşak province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting van province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting yalova province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting yozgat province geography stubs


 * Propose deleting zonguldak province geography stubs


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Undersized stub categories. As noted at WPSS, stub categories should start with at least 60 articles. These recently created categories don't even have half that amount.  Propose upmerging the templates until they are used on the recommended number of articles.  Dawynn (talk) 11:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - These are geography categories, for top-level divisions of Turkey. If they are not populated at this moment, they will be soon enough, as there is a large load of villages to create articles from. Ithinkicahn (talk) 12:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep:Up to two years ago there were almost no articles about the small settlements in Turkey. But during the last two years the articles about the small settlements (mostly stubs) in 13 provinces (out of 81) were created (more than 5000) largely thanks to Dr. Blofeld's efforts. At the moment the rest are under construction. So why don't we wait a little more before deleting the cat ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep they'll just be re-created in time per Nedim; I've also seen similar arguments in other noms on Iranian categories that are now well populated. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Soul food

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. Good Ol’factory (talk) 19:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting soul food


 * Nominator's rationale: The articles currently in this category cover a wide range of topics (e.g. Phaseolus lunatus, Catfish, Offal and Watermelon) for which being a soul food is not a WP:DEFINING characteristic. Several of the articles I checked don't even mention "soul food".  For info: There is a list at List of soul foods and dishes. This might be salvageable by adding inclusion criteria and a drastic purge.  Examples of previous similar CFDs are Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_April_10 and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_September_20. DexDor (talk) 06:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * keep this fits as an ethnic cuisine of which we have many, even in boring old America. It cannot be fairly compared with breakfast and baseball foods which are more event-based -- soul food is itself a cuisine and has identifiable restaurants, recipes, cookbooks, and traditions. A slight purge may be in order but there's no reason to delete this one and keep tex-mex for example. Strong keep. I would however purge ingredients in most cases, and keep this focused on actual articles about dishes/preparations of same. I'm sure green beans and sweet potatoes are used in soul food but I don't think they belongs here - only articles about dishes should be here, or ingredients if they are truly very unique to this cuisine.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:27, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * keep per obi. The appropriateness or not of any particular use of the cat is of course up to consensus, but its a very notable genre of food, and there are MANY foods that are very closely linked (pigs feet, chitlins, etc) that are almost exclusively thought of as soul food. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Soul food is an ethnic cuisine. They're specific ingredients that are prominent in the cuisine. So, the reasoning behind deleting it is ludicrous, if not misinformed. If someone's seeking info on what role "catfish" as played in various cuisines, it is important and notable. To delete it would mean that Asian, Mexican, Italian, and other cuisines would have to be deleted. If you delete one, you have to delete them all. Considering a deletion becomes one person disagrees with listing ingredients to a well-known cuisine is extremely myopic.--Honeybrown1976 (User talk:Honeybrown1976|talk]])11:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.107.240 (talk)
 * Delete does any of these articles gain notability from being "soul food"? Are we going to start adding cats to nearby edible item for the cuisines in which it is found. Think of what happens to beef, rice, tomato, maize, and apple; how many categories will not be added to each of those and to what purpose? Someone looking for catfish is really going to the categories to find what else is in soul food rather than looking for it in the cullinary section of the article? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As I noted above, ingredients such as rice or beef would not belong, but a special beef+rice dish that is strongly identified with cuisine X would fit.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Neutral at this point. While we may be able to be define soul food, is that a defining characteristic of the dishes?  I suppose that if we can define the category in a way that inclusion is objective we can keep it.  In looking at the current contents, it seems that a more accurate name would be Category:Soul food ingredients.  I suppose if the category were cleaned up, it might make it easier for me to pick a side.  But without something really strong in favor of keeping with objective criteria and not including ingredients, I will probably chime in with a delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - Soul food is a well-documented ethnic cuisine. If the category needs some pruning, so be it, but outright removal of the category doesn't serve to better-organize content in the encyclopedia. Rather, deletion of the entire cat would hinder improved organization. Northamerica1000(talk) 21:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep In the US at least, Soul food is an important ethnic category, like Soul music, etc. Soranoch (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bash at the Beach

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:24, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting bash at the beach


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. There are only two items in the category... One of them is a misspelled redirect and the other is an article nominated for deletion.LM2000 (talk) 04:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Category made based on rumour, and not even enough entries even if it were true. —  Richard  BB  06:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Upmerge -- There is an article Bash at the Beach, also WWE Bash at the Beach, which is subject to AFD. The first article lists a series of annual events.  Accordingly there is no room for expansion.  If the article survives AFD, it needs a category; hence upmerge.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rape victims

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete, listify if wanted. With the latter possibility in mind, I'll drop a note on Drmies' talk page, and wait a bit before implementing the close. - jc37 18:40, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting and salting rape victims


 * Nominator's rationale: BLP-issues magnet. In spite of the wish to keep this for historical people only, this has started to attract living people, like Tori Amos or Maya Angelou and many others. Even if someone was a rape victim, in the majority of cases this is not DEFINING of them. I think this category should be deleted, and some of the members moved to Category:Sexual abuse victims activists - for such people who were known for being raped and then having worked against sexual violence afterwards. As it is now, it's being used to tag the bios of famous singers/actresses who have been raped, I really don't see the value here. Listification should be done instead. (an extant list is at atList_of_rape_victims_from_history_and_mythology). Note the monitoring necessary for this category (ex here) to me suggests that it is too delicate a category to have for BLPs, and it would be even worse if someone decided to write an article on how wikipedia considered some women (like Traci Lords) to not be worthy of the "rape victim" category. Shudder... Those proposing keep in the March 2013 discussion mostly wanted it to be only for historical people, but BLPs are starting to be added here, and I can't see any justification to not let them all in once you let one in. I think a better solution is delete and listify as needed. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: older discussions here:


 * 7/23/2007 Rape victims: deleted
 * 11/11/2007 Fictional rape victims: deleted
 * 1/4/2013 Gang rape victims: deleted
 * 3/31/2013 Rape victims: no consensus

I notified participants in the past discussion of this one.
 * Delete this as per nom and past consensus. I definitely agree with the proposal to move appropriate things to the "Sexual abuse victims activists" as well; that's clearly a defining characteristic, whereas being unfortunate enough to have been raped by some *insert strong expletive/insult here* isn't. Not only this, I'm quite sure the question of whether something is rape, or whether it is sexual assault, varies from place to place. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 06:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sheesh, AGAIN? I'm getting a little tired of this. First of all, it's legitimate as it is, with the headnote. What it calls for is the exercise of common sense and a judicious application of the BLP policy. I'm doing my best to keep the riff-raff out; only last week I removed the category from a half a dozen or more articles, leaving notes for those who added it with an explanation. Second, this category isn't even intended primary for activists--it's intended for people like Philomena and Lucretia. For crying out loud, are we REALLY only concerned with the fucking news and Twitter? There's history to consider, in which this happens to be an incredibly important topic. Speaking of history, I tried this as Category:Historical rape victims, deleted because it was "the same" as this one, in a previous incarnation. It wasn't. I meant for this to be historical. I don't care to create a contentious category where every moron who reads their Twitterfeed can start adding people to; I want a category so that readers and scholars have a way to see how many notable women from mythology, scripture(s), history, and literature were victims of rape. So rename it if you must but sheesh, get real. Luke, in response to your last remark, no. If y'all want to be useful, either police the category OR come up with something that makes it clear that this is NOT for living people or the recently deceased--and don't give me that nonsense about "mythological people weren't real so they can't be historical", which fundamentally misunderstands just about everything. Drmies (talk) 13:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * a list, as you've already created, is simply a better solution. This cat has too many problems which outweigh the benefits. I shouldn't be saying this but seriously, how will it look if we start excluding women like Madonna from this category if we judge their rape wasn't defining enough - even though this may be the case from a wikilawyer POV - eg there are people who are principally notable b/c they were raped and others for whom it's simply an admission that comes out long after they're famous. this is such a sensitive and personal subject, i really think focusing your efforts on maintaining a well referenced and explained and sorted list of historical and mythological characters who were victims is a much better way, categories just aren't set up for the subtlety you're looking for.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A list is not a "finer" tool. But whatever. I'm tired of all this, which strikes me as nothing but recentism on the part of way too many editors. Don't think for a moment that I intended this as a category for anyone still alive, or recently dead, of even from after 1900. That you would nominate this, after all your complex theorizing on complicated ways of categorizing, strikes me as counterintuitive--all these complicated tools, all this machinery, and we can't make a category for literary, historical, mythological victims who often by definition are remembered for this one tragic event? It's unimpressive. But I am in fact tired of this. I've added a few entries to the list and I'm going to leave this be. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * We need to have clear inclusion criteria, and in a case where your inclusion criteria are rather complex, coupled with the fact of opening up many articles to BLP issues, the tradeoff isn't there. Can you describe why a list is not better here? What does a category give you that a list does not? If we rename this as "historical rape victims", then what is the cut-off? If it's 1900, why? Why not someone who died in 1901? The inclusion criteria as you're attempting to describe them are rather subjective, and really better handled in a list that could group things by century or era for example.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The very act of removing someone from this category, as you've done recently, could be seen as equivalent to saying the person in question is not a rape victim. Even the header describing the criteria does not exclude BLPs. Remember, categories are very hard to monitor - the only way to see new additions is to go to the category page, and click on recent changes - something that would have to be done at least weekly to monitor this correctly. A list on the other hand can be sourced - each entry carefully vetted, sorted, ordered, and described, and additions can be seen via edits. Categories that need to be closely monitored are generally not a good idea, and in this case the benefits outweigh the costs. You say you want a list for scholars - then build out the list! Rape-victim-tagging dozens or hundreds of BLPs or even BDPs is not going to be helpful, and it's not clear that the reader would be well served nor that a BLP would be improved by having a binary "rape victim" at the bottom of their page. Rape victims exist at all points in history, so even if you try to keep this to "historical" people, someone who died in 1950 is still historical, and there are plenty of bios of people who died in the past 100 years where we can find sourcing that says they were raped. I just think on balance, this category isn't worth it. It's much easier to maintain a list and define tighter inclusion criteria for said list and patrol it accordingly. Also I'd suggest having one list for mythological or fictional characters, and another list for real historical people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's semantics, Obiwankenobi, and your last sentence shows that you don't really understand the issues I'm addressing. The ones that are on the list are historical--not in the sense in which the average Wikipedia editor may understand the word, but their lack of understanding is not my problem. Really, who are you to decide whether a person from the Bible should be considered mythological or "real historical"? Do you think Ovid made Philomela up out of whole cloth? No, don't answer those questions: they're impossible to answer--apparently too complicated to solve in the greatest encyclopedia ever. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This particular problem you point to is not an issue with these lists, it's a more general issue in that for categories there is a guidance that says you should not mix real people with fictional ones. As to whether the lists should be split or not, that's really an issue for the talk page of that list to see what other people think. I'm not trying to decide anything, it should be based on sources - if the academic consensus is that person X was a real person then they could go on the list of real people, where as person Y who was just a character in a book - even if based on someone the author knew - would go on the list of fictional characters. The fact that there is fuzziness around mythological vs historical people is all the more reason to use a list, where these differences and subtleties can be explained and discussed, as opposed to a category where it's binary: in-or-out. Otherwise, what would keep us from categorizing literary figures here? I'm still waiting for an answer on why a list is not a good solution, and still don't understand why you absolutely need a category (with all of the challenges outlined and now demonstrated in practice by the current contents) to complement said list.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. It's been established that we need both lists and categories; some readers prefer one, some prefer the other, and so we have both Category:Nazis and List of Nazis, to give another example where inclusion raises problems (and where, for the sake of full disclosure, I argued for having one and not the other). Mythology/religion constitutes an edge case that makes it impossible to make a neat distinction between history and fiction. I would support moving the category to Historical rape victims, with a note that this includes mythological and other figures of unknown historicity, but the community previously rejected that. As regards BLPs: not everything important enough to categorize is pleasant, unfortunately. It's encyclopedic; in fact I would argue that we need to promote knowledge of the incidence of rape in history (and religious stories!) just as of any crime. Restricting the use of the category to those no longer alive seems like a good solution to avoid further victimization, but as past use of the category has recognized, there's a good argument for extending it to those for whom it has been defining, particularly those who have become advocates for rape survivors or rape prevention activists. Personally I'd rather keep it simple and place them instead in Category:Sexual abuse victims activists, but either way, the benefits of having the category for historical/mythological/religious figures outweighs the problems of policing it. We have a duty to police BLP articles anyway. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on what your proposed inclusion criteria are then. All rape victims? All rape victims pre-1900? All rape victims pre-1700? As evidenced by the current contents (and how they violate the currently stated criteria) we are failing in our job to police this appropriately, and unless someone signs up to monitor this weekly, we will continue to fail.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * keep per common outcome of Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_October_11 Possible BLP abuses are not a reason to remove a category which is obviously notable. However, any particular inclusion or non inclusion criteria for the category should of course be discussed. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Well, murder victims are never alive, while some of these are, so BLP issues works here but does not work there. This has too many complexities, too many issues of categorizing where there was an aquittal and the problem with either decision in that case to work. We are just better off not having this category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That was the same argument I made in the murder victim cat. regardless of the subject being dead, the potential/alleged/convicted accused is still covered by WP:BLP. I don't disagree with your logic, but we need to be consistent in the application and not having every decision be ad hoc (stare decisis). Either there is a guiding principle, or there isn't. and if there isn't then the policy/guideline backed reasons for deletion here fall apart. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The guiding policies here are BLP and IAR I think; rape cannot be easily compared to any other crimes, because of the nature of the crime itself, and thus victims of rape (unlike victims of any other crime) are afforded special consideration by our society that is not given for victims of assault, murder, or any of the other horrible things that might happen to someone. The existence of this category has nothing to do with whether we have a category for perpetrators of rape, by the way.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete and salt as completely unnecessary and not constructive, and because we should have respected the 2007 decision and never allowed this to be re-created. Its a magnet for editors to use for living ppl who may not wish it to be known they have been the victim of rape and on the other hand removing ppl may be making the statement that they werent actually raped. I am not convinced those who support keeping this cat will work every day 24/7 for the next 30+ yrs monitoring this for vios (and nor can we force them to)♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * delete. The discussion above well sets out the benefits of the category vs. the problems of having the category. I think the benefits of having the category are outweighed by the problems. It would be nice if the category could be limited in scope, but with such an expansive name, it won't be. Good Ol’factory (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - The headnote makes the inclusion criteria quite clear. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear - you are agreeing with adding some BLPs here, but not all, correct? That itself poses a problem in my book, as by adding, then removing a BLP, we are effectively stating they aren't rape-victim-enough to merit inclusion in this category.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete if the rape itself is notable (e.g., a case is brought amid much publicity), it would belong in Category:Rape cases or Category:Rape cases or some such. If the person is notable for other reasons, being a rape victim may well be defining for the person in the same way as being a virgin or being married, none of which we would categorize on, but not for WP issues. If the person is only notable for being raped then WP:BLP1E applies and this category is inappropriate as the bio article should be about the notable event and falls into the Category:Rapes or Category:Rape cases. And finally, WP:BLP and WP:RS lead to the inevitable conclusion that what reliable sources would show that a notable person was raped? Isn't it usually a crime with but 2 witnesses, often with conflicting stories? Often, this is Category:People claiming to be rape victims unless we (WP) have decided that their claims are true or put some limits around it, like a perp has been convicted specifically of "rape", not "lewd acts" or some non-descript "sex crime" and we would, in fairness put the victims of those folks in Category:People falsely claiming to be rape victims, right? not workable. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I wonder if you've missed the focus on historical (and mythological) persons? From this and other comments above, I'm wondering whether the solution isn't just to move it to Category:Historical rape victims and avoid the whole BLP can of worms; consensus may have changed, since it seems the historical version was removed because it was regarded as duplicating this one? Yngvadottir (talk) 18:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Historical was rejected as no-one came up with decent inclusion criteria that gives us a yes/no answer on whether something should be included. For example, Betty_Jean_Owens was a very famous rape victim, and her case was a very important part of black civil rights history, the first time white men had received serious sentences for raping a black woman. So, her rape, her courage in speaking out, and the attendant trial is clearly part of this country's history. But what criteria would keep her in this category, and Ashley Judd out? Having an arbitrary cut-off, like 1900, doesn't work either, as you would have to be constantly moving the cut-off (and "rapes that happened 113 years ago" is a rather odd category.) Historical is fuzzy fuzzy fuzzy, and not good for a category name unless you can define clearly what you mean and if you can find RS that use that same definition.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Historical is not the same as historic, although that may be a quibble - different readers will find different meaning in various examples, and what is really at issue is the validity of the category itself. There's a Scylla and Charybdis situation here - Scylla is the fact/fiction line where it relates to mythology/scripture/history of such antiquity that it has the status of legend - and Charybdis is our line in the sand between living people and dead people. Practically speaking, the least problematic criterion would be "no longer living"; it's harsh to apply a category to someone the day after they die that had been withheld out of respect until then; but our guidelines distinguish between BLPs and non-BLPs. The reason I bother to respond here is that I do believe the advantages to the category - if it avoids the BLP issue - outweigh the disadvantages: the incidence of rape in both history and narrative is a legitimate subject of study, in fact an important one. More simply put, I don't believe the encyclopedia serves rape survivors well by avoiding coverage of the phenomenon. The task is to avoid doing so in a way that does a disservice to rape survivors. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * WTF?? Who said WP was avoiding coverage of rape??? Here is a small selection of the 160 articles and ~48 categories that have rape in their title: Rape; War_rape; Marital rape; Gang rape; Statutory rape; Prison rape; Types of rape;Pregnancy from rape;Laws regarding rape; the list goes on. But given all of the challenges around monitoring membership of this particular category, and the fact that people often ignore criteria (since you can add to a cat w/o reading the cat page), why, specifically, do you need a category here when you already have a list? Be specific please. No-one is saying rape is not important, but wikipedia lists of notable rape victims should not be used as a proxy for incidence of rape, it would be ridiculous to do so; the two have nothing to do with one another. If you want to know incidence of rape, walk over to Rape_statistics.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Because someone may want to look at how it comes up in history and mythology (and whatever you call Biblical characters and saints). As I say, the task is to keep it from further victimizing BLPs, while recognizing that the community sees a need for both lists and categories. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You keep on avoiding the question. how does a category, whereby inclusion is binary (yes/no) and whereby it has been agreed this poses problems to biographies of living or dead - help answer your scholarly question? The list is largely sufficient, and can be sourced appropriately, and doesn't have any of the same "DEFINING" issues as categories. The community has NOT agreed that categories are always needed - for example, we have not categories for Vegetarians or Vegans, even though we have lists of same. In fact, we have many many lists that don't have corresponding categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per current inclusion criteria. Membership in the category is no more a BLP issue than any other statement that a person has been raped and there is a clear encyclopedic use for the category. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So if, hypothetically, your personal biography on Wikipedia defined you as a victim of rape, how would that make you feel? I imagine for some people, it would be rather distressing, especially if it was something they were trying to put behind them. Mentioning that someone was raped within the context of an article is somewhat different. In that case, we are not implying that the person is defined by that event. I realize the distinction is subtle, but I think its an important distinction, nonetheless. Kaldari (talk) 01:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * According to the current inclusion criteria that would only happen if (a) I was raped and (b) that process politicised me into advocacy or activism. I can't imagine would (a) would make me feel, 57 kinds of dreadful certainly. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per BLP problems. Yes, I realize that the existence of this category by itself is not a BLP violation, but without constant monitoring, it will continue to attract BLPs. I would suggest "Category:Sexual abuse victims activists" as a possible substitute for some of them, and maybe "Category:Historical rape victims" for others. Regardless, this category needs to be deleted, as it could cause serious distress to living people, some of which strongly object to the label "rape victim" and some of which would likely object to being defined as such. Kaldari (talk) 01:35, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I agree with nominator's proposal. This should not be a defining Category for a person in an encyclopedia. I particularly agree with the statement just above by Kaldari. - Neonorange (talk) 03:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - we shouldn't categorize actresses etc by an event that happened to them (especially something was not their choice) and I'm unconvinced we need this category for historical rape victims. A list can cover the nuances (e.g. alleged perp died before trial) much better than a category. DexDor (talk) 06:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep If the article mentions they were raped, no reason not to have a category listing also. This is no different than category:murder victimsCategory:Kidnapped people by nationality, or Category:American victims of crime.  We don't erase something simply because some are concerned someone might add someone in that doesn't belong.  No greater chance of that happening then someone adding something into their article itself.  This is quite a traumatic event to go through, and does define the person far more than what location they are from, or other existing categories commonly used.  As long as the person has publicly stated they were a rape victim, or is dead and listed as a historic rape victim, then there is no reason not to put them in this category.   D r e a m Focus  09:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of defining - which is given here DEFINING - it has nothing to do with whether something had an impact on a person (I don't think anyone would ever claim that a rape had little impact on someone) - but here's where we get into a problem. If we open this up to BLPs, as you've further done with this edit, then any BLP who was raped, or claimed to be raped, would be added to this category - even if it was something that happened when they were a child and they only recently spoke about it (and again, in such cases we may not have any independent confirmation of same other than the claim of the victim - Ashley Judd is one such example). But being raped is not DEFINING for Ashley Judd, when she is introduced or if someone was writing a biography of her, the fact that she was raped would not show up in the lede. Contrast this to someone like Betty Jean Owens, whose main source of notability is her rape and subsequent trial which was historic. So, if we use the DEFINING standard for BLPs who have been raped, then we end up removing from people who have been raped but for whom it is not a defining characteristic - e.g. people who are known for lots of other things, and who announce many years later they were also a victim. But, by removing this category from certain BLPs, it may appear that we are claiming that person X was NOT a rape victim, which is not true either. Rape is not the same as kidnapping or murder or any other crime, it is an intensely personal violation, and rape victims are treated differently than other victims for precisely this reason. If, on the other hand, we drop the "DEFINING" criteria, and simply tag every BLP that has made a claim of being a victim of rape, we may have the opposite problem - because many of those people may rather not see "rape victim" as one of their categories on the bottom of the page, compared to in running text where it can be contextualized and dealt with appropriately. Categories are black and white, and we need to have somewhat black and white inclusion criteria, but esp for BLPs, either way (i.e. only those for whom it is DEFINING, or everyone) poses problems that are greater than the benefit to the wiki.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The category is something people would search for. Rape is common enough that the victims would look for articles about those who went through the same nightmarish experience they did.  They will gain strength reading about the stories of others, who were able to still able to be successful in their lives.  And whether or not they were emotionally able to press charges when it happened isn't relevant.  We have no reason to believe they'd make it up just to be added to a Wikipedia search category.  I recently undid the removal of this category from various articles.
 * 12:41, 29 October 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+26)‎ . . Madonna (entertainer) ‎ (Undid revision 579208876 by Kaldari (talk) she talks about the rape, it mentioned in the article. No BLP issue here) (current) [rollback: 1 edit]
 * 12:39, 29 October 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+26)‎ . . Maya Angelou ‎ (Undid revision 579207868 by Kaldari (talk) she talked about it, including in a book she wrote. No BLP issue here either) (current) [rollback: 1 edit]
 * 12:38, 29 October 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+26)‎ . . Annabel Chong ‎ (Undid revision 579207797 by Kaldari (talk) article says she made a film about her life including her gang rape) (current) [rollback: 1 edit]
 * 12:37, 29 October 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+26)‎ . . Tori Amos ‎ (Undid revision 579207353 by Kaldari (talk) she has publicly talked about being raped and created a well known charity to help others.) (current) [rollback: 1 edit]
 * Note that all of these people had spoken about their rapes, published books talking about them, and one had made a film about her life talking about the event.  D r e a m Focus  14:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not claiming any of these people made it up; however, it does indicate a potential problem with such categories, where a conviction has not been secured, which means a self-claim of having been raped is sufficient to put someone in this category. Again, a list might be workable here, in order to give context (e.g. this person made a claim to have been raped when a child, this person was raped and the rapist was convicted, this person was raped when she was 30 but the rapist was never caught, etc) - but a binary category - yes/no, for me doesn't work, and plenty of other editors agree. If we keep this, nothing would prevent recreating either for example.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The gang rape category is a totally different story. No need to separate people into smaller categories for that.  That'd be like murder victims killed with a gun, killed with a knife, killed with a hammer, etc.  No point to it.  Nor would this have any possible bearing on bringing back the fictional rape victims category, that having absolutely nothing to do with this at all.   D r e a m Focus  15:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @DF re your comment above "victims would look for articles about those who went through the same ... experience they did" - do you realise that many (especially young) _readers_ of WP do so using a mobile device (e.g. phone) for which (in my experience) categories aren't displayed ? i.e. that's another reason why this sort of thing is better as a list than a category. DexDor (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:CLN explains "The grouping of articles by one method neither requires nor forbids the use of the other methods for the same informational grouping." Having a category doesn't mean you can't have a list.   D r e a m Focus  08:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep -- It is of course necessary that the person should be notable (usually apart from the rape) and the event having an adequate WP:RS. I would further point out that in UK rape victims are entitled to anonymity, so that the category should have a permanent tag warning that care is required about inclusion.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete/rename/rework: If we are going to limit the category to historical victims of rape, then we should rename it Category:Historical_victims_of_rape. With regards to living people, there are clear BLP concerns, there are no clear inclusion requirements(does the rape need to be a "defining moment" of their notability, do we include them if reliable sources say they aren't sure if the rape happened?), and there is ambiguity about what constitutes rape since the definition varies by time and place. The current category should be deleted, historical figures moved to a historical category, and if people want to create a category for living persons then there must first be a different discussion that generates clear guidelines for how it would be implemented.AioftheStorm (talk) 16:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, could you describe how you would delineate a "historical victim"? Is this anyone who is dead? Anyone who died before 1900? Do we need to revisit the inclusion criteria every year, as more people become "historical"?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: Once a participant has !voted "Keep per current inclusion criteria.", editing the inclusion criteria while the discussion is on-going is not going to aid us in coming to a consensus. This means you and .  Stuartyeates (talk) 20:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was simply updating the inclusion criteria to reflect the current contents and what I read as the rough consensus of this discussion. It is normal during a CFD for inclusion criteria to be updated; feel free to update your !vote to point to the older version of the criteria, or change it if you disagree with the current criteria, or even discuss the current criteria further on the cat talk page.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I see no draft, let alone a 'rough consensus' for one. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I removed a pointless bit that wasn't saying anything. And to handle concerns stated in this discussion I added "If the rape is not mentioned and properly referenced in the article, it should not have this category added to it.".  So that takes care of a lot of problems.   D r e a m Focus  22:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - in the US at least "rape victim" is considered a demeaning term. "Rape survivor" is considered more impowering, avoiding victimizing the "victim" all over again. Soranoch (talk) 23:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm in the US, and that is not a demeaning term. Many other categories use the word "victim" in it.  Do you want to go through all Wikipedia articles that call the rape victim a victim  and change that to the word "survivor" because you think that will somehow empower someone?   D r e a m Focus  08:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - We have cats for kidnapped people, torture victims, terrorism victims, acid attack victims and hostages among others; some of these folks are still alive today and none is suggesting to delete these cat.Jean Po (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS... added to which, some of those probably need to go as well (acid attack victims? Really?) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 07:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is an essay. And it says at the top " Sometimes these comparisons are invalid, and sometimes they are valid."  This is a valid comparison.  It has to do with Wikipedia naming convictions and standard method of grouping similar things.   D r e a m Focus  08:24, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Where did I present OSE as policy? Oh right, I didn't. And no, it isn't a valid comparison - particularly when someone is referencing "Acid attack victims", which is a category that almost certainly should not exist, as it is even less defining than being a rape victim (albeit without quite being as much of a BLP risk.) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 20:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Being disfigured by acid is pretty defining, isn't it? As for being a rape victim, we can agree such event has a very strong impact upon the person going through such assault. We can limit the inclusion to cases where a judicial ruling has been rendered by a court or to cases where very strong evidence exists (see the [(Recy Taylor]] case).Jean Po (talk) 23:52, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep/rename/rework: As per Drmies argument. 173.51.29.188 (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Move to Category:Historical rape victims or somesuch, or else delete. I'm not very impressed by arguments to the effect of "Well, if editors read the note at the top it works" or "Well, if it's only added by editors where it really belongs" and so on. We live in an imperfect world and the fact is that editors have added this category inappropriately and always will. Even arguably inappropriately is problematic, since it's a WP:BLP issue. It's a WP:BLP issue! That matters. When you have a BLP problem like this, you fix it. Let's. Herostratus (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: This is not a notable part of most biographies for which it is used. We don't have a "mugging victims" or "fraud victims" category, so a "rape victims" category is clearly both sexist and vastly inappropriate for a balanced encyclopaedia. Jeremy112233 (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Rape has a notable effect on the live of the victim, something mugging has not, and don't see the existence of this category as sexist (men can be victims too as the Clyde Barrow and Abner Loumia cases show). Jean Po (talk) 18:42, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Mugging doesn't have a notable affect on the life of a victim? That's clear bullshit. Mugging can be an incredibly traumatising experience, and the violence often involved can lead to a victim feeling the physical results for a long time after. I do agree, however, that this category here isn't strictly sexist. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:25, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, virtually all rapes are perpetrated by men, but a large portion of victims are men as well. Although if we include statutory rapes in the statistics the numbers become more complex, since a noticeable portion of those are carried out by women.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. I'm not sure enough has changed since 2007 and the decision then should be upheld. That fact shoul have been more strongly considered in the first close this year.  This close really needs to see if there is a consensus to overturn the 2007 decision.  The inclusion criteria are subjective which is extremely problematic.  As pointed out above, the criteria would require constant review, which is a red flag for a category with problems.  Again going back to 2007, if this is important, create a list. That idea seems to have strong support in this discussion.  Also we can see how the current criteria fail when we include the fictional offspring of rape. Were these characters also rapped? Simply put, there are just too many problems and nothing has really changed to have a different decision from 2007.  If deleted or listified, probably add a little salt. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Consensus can change. We're not here to overturn anything, that's not how it works.  What the random group participating said six years ago, is not relevant to this discussion here and now.  The category for rape victims is for real people obviously.  An IP address added the unrelated category Category:Fictional offspring of rape to this category after this discussion had been started.  I have just removed it since it doesn't belong as a subcategory there.  The category has been doing just fine without problems for months now, other than someone adding in that one subcategory by mistake.  It would not need constant review.   D r e a m Focus  04:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, consensus can change and that is what needs to be shown. There needs to be a strong new consensus to overturn the previous one.  If this was recreated, all of the discussion and the conclusion needs to be framed on the previous close.  We don't work in a vacuum.  Doing find is not a justification for overturning a previous decision.  I still think that a listify with references is the best solution here. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.