Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 September 15



Category:1st-century Irish people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting:
 * 1st-century irish people


 * 1st-century irish monarchs


 * 2nd-century irish people


 * 2nd-century irish monarchs


 * 3rd-century irish people


 * 3rd-century irish monarchs


 * 4th-century irish people


 * 4th-century irish monarchs


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Dateable Irish history begins in the 5th century. Everyone in this category is legendary, or at least undateable. Nicknack009 (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose The relevant articles include estimations of era of activity and there is no indication that these are all fictional. Dimadick (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep all. The dates may be estimates, but they are widely accepted. The categories serve a valuable navigational purpose (per WP:CAT), and the articles can explain any debates around the dates. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * None of these characters - and they are characters - can be accepted as historical, except maybe a handful from the 4th century who lived into the fifth. Would you characterise Robin Hood as a 12th-century English person because his stories are set in the reign of Richard I? All the historical research from the 20th century on, from Eoin mac Neill to Francis J. Byrne, has established that the chronological scheme of the Lebor Gabála, developed by Keating and the Four Masters, is an artificial one designed to include all the politically-important aristocratic lineages of the early middle ages into one fictional lineage, and was done by projecting ancestors of families then prominent into the distant past, and by alternating kings of different regions of Ireland as kings of the whole island, thus artificially lengthening the chronology. To summarise, everything before the 5th century is not reliable history and should not be treated as such. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:08, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Those issues should be discussed in the articles, and in many cases they are explained there. You may wish ti improve the articles, but that's not a CFD matter.
 * Categories are not content. They are a device for navigating between content, and deleting them would merely make them harder to find. That does nothing to help our readers. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The articles are mostly fine, correctly recording that these are the dates given in the first written sources, of which the earliest main one is 11th century. The dates are not "estimates" by modern historians at all, but just record what the first written sources say (which often differ by 200 years or more); Nicknack has explained the background to the scheme devised centuries later into which they fit. No modern historian would attempt "estimates" based on this material, nor do they waste much time "debating" it. All sorts of countries have fictional protohistories, but we do not accept them for precise timeslot categories.  Johnbod (talk) 12:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Similar problems exist for the legendary Category:Kings of Rome. They can be dated (there's a traditional year-bracket for the reign of Servius Tullius, placed among Category:6th-century BC Romans), but most have legendary elements (Servius was credited with Rome's earliest constitutional reforms, but was also said to have been spawned by a disembodied supernatural phallus). You could say he was a Roman, though only debatably an actual person. One might also compare Caswallawn. If we didn't have Caesar's account, we'd be skeptical of a British king with a cloak of invisibility. Nicknack009's description, however, makes these Irish figures more like the Latin kings of Alba Longa, transparent inventions whose names provide aetiologies for toponymy and family names. Individual articles on those figures are categorized as "mythological kings" and such, not in century categories. We do have Romulus among Category:8th-century BC Romans. Just observations for comparison. I don't have an opinion. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd also say it's a mistake to treat the kings of Rome as reliably historical figures - and the least reliable thing about them is probably their dates. Likewise, the chronology of Irish prehistoric tradition is clearly artificial. We know that the political picture of 2nd century Ireland in Ptolemy's Geography bears no relation to the stories placed in the 2nd century in medieval Irish tradition. I don't think we can say all, or even many, of the kings in the tradition are aetiological inventions - no doubt some are genealogical fictions, others are mythic heroes, others were real kings of part of Ireland, promoted to kings of all of Ireland to support their descendents' ambitions and pushed further back in time than they really lived. Some are duplicates, the same character split in two or more because they appear in different stories alongside characters that the chronology would say were not contemporaries. But, the most important thing is, we can speculate but we can't say which is which, because we have no contemporary sources, or even later sources that plausibly had access to contemporary sources. Even the events of the 5th century have to be reconstructed with care because of political distortion in the early annals. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:08, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep all -- As long as we have articles to populate the categories they should exist. I appreciate that we know little or nothing of most of the people apart from their appearance in genealogies, but that is possibly an argument for merging articles, not one for deleting categories.  Mythological figures may well warrant an article, and if they can be located to a century, they should be categorised accordingly.  An alternative might be to merge them all into Mythological Irish kings and Mythological Irish people, but since genealogies are a major source, they can (i think) safely be located (at least approximately) to centuries.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Most of them are not merely entries in a genealogy - most of them are characters from stories, some more detailed than others but none of them history, and are already categorised according to what branch of Irish mythology they appear in. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:08, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to me that the argument put forward is related to content quality (the articles within the categories) and not about the categories. --HighKing (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, not at all; the objection is to the massively over-precise dating, and the acceptance that these figures really existed. Johnbod (talk) 04:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment What is the connection between these categories and Category:Legendary High Kings of Ireland? Liz  Read! Talk! 16:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like every article in the "Monarchs" cats is also in the "Legendary High Kings" cat, but, of course, they are not broken down by century. Whether the "Monarchs" should be sub-cats of the "Legendary High Kings" is an interesting question, but not an easy one. Scolaire (talk) 18:16, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I noticed that some articles on the History of Ireland break it up into 5 or 6 periods, rather than organizing by centuries. Maybe placing all of these articles within a "Protohistory" period of Irish history would be a compromise solution. Liz  Read! Talk! 02:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep all: As I said on another page, looking at the 1st-century monarchs, all of them are dated by three separate sources – Lebor Gabála Érenn, Foras Feasa ar Érinn and the Annals of the Four Masters – to the first century AD. Legendary they may be, but if they're notable enough to have an article, and they can be dated, then these are useful categories. Scolaire (talk) 18:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge all into some appropriately-named category, or Delete The idea these people, if they existed at all, can be dated this precisely is pure moonshine - the Lebor Gabála Érenn only survives in an 11th century text - yes that's a thousand years after the 1st century. The other two Scolaire cites are 17th century compilations for heaven's sake. They should all go into "Late Iron Age", "Legendary" or "Protohistoric" categories. Johnbod (talk) 04:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Upmerge all to Category:Late Iron Age Irish people. That is about as precise as we can be.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep, ODNB contains entry for at least one of the above, Conn Cétchathach. The legendry Robin Hood is happily catgorised in "English rebels" and "English outlaws" along with non-fictional subjects. Is it moonshine or Poitín that is the problem here? Tommy Pinball (talk) 18:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's the frigging dates! Read the debate before commenting please. Johnbod (talk) 22:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Recording Industry Association of New Zealand

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:29, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Singles certified by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Singles certified quadruple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified quadruple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Singles certified double platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified double platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Singles certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified gold by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Singles certified platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Singles certified triple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Singles certified triple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Propose renaming Category:Albums certified by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified double platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified double platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified decuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified decuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified gold by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified nonuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified nonuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified octodecuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified octodecuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified octuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified octuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified quadruple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified quadruple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified quintuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified quintuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified septuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified septuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified sexdecuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified sexdecuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified sextuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified sextuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified tredecuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified tredecuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified triple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified triple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Category:Albums certified undecuple platinum by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand to Category:Albums certified undecuple platinum by Recorded Music NZ
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a procedural listing following a previous nomination which was closed on procedural grounds. All categories affected by the proposed change have been tagged and all participants in the original discussion notified. I am neutral. -- Black Falcon (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It's the same certifying body, just with a new name, so they don't need to recertify anything. Where a body changes name or has a single successor, we use the current name and redirect ... and a hatnote in the category can explanation of the change of name. The fact that there was a merger or whatever is an interesting bit of organisational history, but it isn't particularly relevant to the core fact being captured by these categories, which is "recorded music certified at particular level by the national certifying body in NZ". There's no point in splitting the category, and when a name changes we use the current name. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename all per nominator, but recreate the old titles as Category redirects.
 * Rename all per nom, and per Recorded Music NZ. Oculi (talk) 12:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename all with category redirects. Certifying body has changed its name. Adabow (talk) 01:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename only cats after the organisational renaming These certificates have a particular name on them. I understand that previous certificates aren't going to be reissued with the new name which will only be used on new certifications. Not your siblings&#39; deletionist (talk) 04:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who fulfill the COI+ agreements

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedians who fulfill the coi+ agreements


 * Nominator's rationale: This user category expresses willingness to adhere to COI+, a failed proposal that was rejected by the community. As such, the category cannot advance collaboration. Please note, also, that the contents of the category are largely duplicated at COI+. -- Black Falcon (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge Can you add the six accounts in this category into COI+, then Delete? Liz  Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 17:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Notify category creator User:WikiPuppies. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * <big style="color:#690; font-size:1.4em;">✓ Done using Cfd-notify: diff. Please note that, though I agree it's good practice, it's not a required part of the nomination process. Thanks for the reminder, though. :) -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand and I appreciate your response, Black Falcon. I know many CfD regulars always post notifications, I'm trying to encourage this practice, especially to WikiProjects that might be impacted by discussions here. I've been encountering some Editors with very negative views of the CfD process and I think a lot of that can be alleviated simply by being more transparent. Sometimes category creators object to deletions, sometimes they support deletions, I think people mainly want to be included in the discussion. Thanks! Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 15:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand; thank you for explaining. I do think that notification of active category creators should be mandatory for nominations that include only one category, and in the past I shamelessly advertised Cfd-notify, which I created, during every nomination. I have had both positive and negative experiences as a result, including some situations where a creator genuinely contributed to a discussion (either for or against deletion, it doesn't really matter...) and other situations where a creator actively disrupted a nomination or simply chose to offer a drive-by vote. Anyway, I suppose that this is a discussion for another venue. Cheers! -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedian adults disgusted by "The Wikipedia Adventure"
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedian adults disgusted by "the wikipedia adventure"
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a user category that, if it contained more than just one banned user, would group users on the basis of a particular dislike (see WP:OC/U). I'm not quite sure what "The Wikipedia Adventure" is; however, I am sure that this category in no way contributes to collaboration. -- Black Falcon (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Divise, showing negativity towards other users. (Wikipedia adventure is a game currently being developed by several Wikipedians with the purpose of serving as an introduction to Wikipedia). Iselilja (talk) 17:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete "The Wikipedia Adventure" was a project run over the summer. Safe to say, this sentiment is dated and since there is only one User page listed, I think it is appropriate to delete. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete was created to make a point by a now banned editor who is the only occupant of the category. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete we avoid dislike user categories in almost all cases.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kërçova
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (NAC) Armbrust The Homunculus 09:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting kërçova
 * Nominator's rationale: "Kërçova" is simply the Albanian name of the town of Kičevo. No category for this town currently exists, as there may be no need since few articles related to people/places from the town exist. If this category were needed, it should be renamed "Kičevo." One of the three articles in this category, Ali Ahmeti, is about a man who is not from Kičevo. Another is about a football club based in a nearby village, but does play its game within the town. -- Local hero talk 16:08, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I also just noticed that the same user created Category:Kičevo. No articles are in the category. I think both ought to be deleted. -- Local hero talk 16:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Notify the category creators about this discussion. They might have plans to expand and place other existing articles into this category. It's biggest problem that I see is that it is not categorized itself and connected to similar categories for Albanian locations. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I notified the creator. Kičevo is not an Albanian location: it is in Macedonia. The user created a category for this town under its Albanian name, "Kërçova." If there should be a category for this town, it should be name Category:Kičevo, to be consistent with the article name. Category:Kërçova, and its one or two articles, should be merged into the category should we decide one is necessary. -- Local hero talk 19:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete 2 articles is not enough for a location category (since Ahmeti does not appear to even be from this place).John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Compositions by Mischa Spoliansky
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Compositions by Mischa Spoliansky to Category:Musicals by Mischa Spoliansky
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match others in Category:Musicals by writer. Richhoncho (talk) 09:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete There is only one composition listed. It doesn't seem to warrant a separate category for one article. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Notify the category creator User:Lord Cornwallis. This should happen the day you post this nomination. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. The writer of a musical is a defining characteristic (even if there is only 1 musical). Oculi (talk) 12:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Compositions by Cole Porter
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Compositions by Cole Porter to Category:Musicals by Cole Porter
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match other entries in Category:Musicals by writer. Richhoncho (talk) 09:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not all of the articles listed in the original category are musicals. Some are songs or others are related to films. Rather than renaming the entire category, why not create a separate category for stage musicals? Music written for the stage is normally kept in a different category than film scores although they might all be subcategories within the Composer category. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Response. There is a category for Category:Songs written by Cole Porter, whilst Category:Compositions by composer contains composers who do not write songs (specifically musical pieces without any lyrics) which would not apply to Cole Porter. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Category:Compositions by Cole Porter. Create subcat Category:Musicals by Cole Porter and put the musicals into it. (Category:Compositions by composer does contain some musicals, eg Andrew Lloyd-Webber's. Or see Category:Compositions by Leonard Bernstein.) Oculi (talk) 10:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Oculi. I am not sure why you suggest keeping Compositions by Cole Porter. All the entries are already in Category:Songs written by Cole Porter. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 06:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Yolo Wikipedians
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting yolo wikipedians
 * Nominator's rationale: The sole purpose of this category appears to reflect a liking for the motto "you only live once", commonly abbreviated "YOLO". I do not begrudge anyone the right to express an opinion about the motto, but there is no valid basis for a user category here; a text statement or userbox is entirely appropriate, but not every userbox needs a category. -- Black Falcon (talk) 06:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * NOTE: This CFD has been listed twice, on two separate days. The one posted yesterday has already received comments. Cgingold (talk) 08:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I apologize for the confusion. I posted on the wrong day's log and when I moved my nomination, I was reverted (in good faith) by an other user. I have moved the comments from that discussion here and offer the following diffs as proof: comment by Dainomite; comment by Insulam Simia; and removal by me. -- Black Falcon (talk) 15:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep sorry about that, I was the user that reverted Black Falcon. I thought they accidently deleted their own entry and I didn't think to check for a duplicate. My apologies. —  - dain   omite    19:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No harm done, and it was a reasonable assumption on your part. :) Cheers, -- Black Falcon (talk) 03:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Speedy close duplicate nomination -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 10:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - per WP:OC/U, this category has zero relevance to usefully categorize users. —  - dain   omite    07:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Absolutely stupid category. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 07:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Notify the category creator, give them a chance to respond. After notification, I'd favor deletion. But I don't know why Editors keep skipping this step. It's part of the nominating process. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Normally, in the case of a single-user category like this one, I would prefer to appraoch the creator directly. However, s(he) has not edited in nearly two months, so I'm afraid notification would not achieve the desired effect. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Notification of the category creator is not a listed step on the outline of categories for deletion. Categories are about grouping articles, and grouping knowledge. I can see maybe special rules for user categories, but even there they need to abide by certain standards. Creators will receive notice on their watch page. It is very easy to create categories, it needs to be similarly easy to nominate them for merger, deletion, renaming etc. Making the process more involved and requiring notifications will make things harder. It will also lead to people being even more hesitant to make group nominations. The long process of AfD, 3 part, process of AfD has on multiple occasions convinced me not to try it, only articles that fairly clearly did not meet notability but I did not see a real problem with. However, the negative consequences of poor categories is another matter. For one thing, recreation of deleted categories is a lot more prevalent. Requiring more notification will not help things, it will just make the process more difficult.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete This is a grouping by support of the motto. It is not helpful to making the encyclopedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Note: it's amazing how much fussy comments are generated by simple corrections - geez. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Visual and Noise pollution
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Pollution for now. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:31, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming visual and noise pollution


 * Nominator's rationale: As it's currently configured, this combined category doesn't really make good sense. Visual pollution and Light pollution are 2 different things. We could rename & limit the category to Category:Visual pollution, which comprises only 2 articles (one of which I just added myself). Alternatively, we could rename & expand it to Category:Visual, light and noise pollution (unless another word order is preferred), thereby encompassing the 2 sub-cats plus the 2 articles pertaining to Visual pollution. Notified Category creator using Cgingold (talk) 04:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

If you do rename this category, Cgingold, could you supply it with a description that explains why the articles are grouped together? Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm uncertain why these two were grouped together...is it because them are immaterial forms of pollution? Can they just be kept under the Category:Pollution with the other forms of pollution? I think that is where readers will go to find this kind of information. And if I was looking for information on Light Pollution, I wouldn't think of it as "Visual Pollution".
 * Upmerge to Category:Pollution. There is no good justification for splitting out these two forms.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:African-American criminals
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep Category:Puerto Rican criminals; delete the others. The contents of the deleted categories will be upmerged as follows: Category:African-American criminals to Category:African-American people and Category:American criminals; Category:American criminals of Finnish descent to Category:American people of Finnish descent and Category:American criminals; Category:American criminals of Mexican descent to Category:American people of Mexican descent and Category:American criminals; Category:Jewish-American criminals to Category:American Jews and Category:American criminals; Category:Hispanic and Latino American criminals to Category:Hispanic and Latino-American people and Category:American criminals. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting african-american criminals


 * Propose deleting american criminals of finnish descent


 * Propose deleting american criminals of mexican descent


 * Propose deleting puerto rican criminals


 * Propose deleting jewish-american criminals


 * Propose deleting hispanic and latino american criminals


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Oh, boy. What is the scope supposed to be? Is any African-American who commits a crime eligible? We already have lots of specific categories to use for people who have committed crimes, eg Category:Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by the United States federal government, Category:American people convicted of murder, etc. We don't need to bring ethnic backgrounds into the classification scheme. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * NOTE I've added a few more categories to this CFD. I left Category:American criminals of Irish descent‎ and Category:American criminals of Italian descent‎ alone for now, since they are not being used except as steps to the mobster categories. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

If we had dynamic category intersection, then readers could create for themselves an intersection between and any other attribute they chose. They could choose to view the set of American perjurers who are also Presbyterians, rapist who are also Republicans, Catholics who are confidence tricksters, or whatever. If we didn't have such a huge number of static intersection categories, the category system would be much easier to maintain. And there would be no need to try to apply the sort of complex sets of principles expressed in WP:CATGRS and elsewhere. In the meantime, we are stuck with this crude technology, and with our current guidelines. I see no doubt that Category:African-American criminals meets all of the very carefully-designed principles of WP:CATGRS, so those grounds it's a clear keep. However, Category:African-American criminals is also just the sort of grouping which supports the racist stereotyping of Africa-Americans, and that is clearly wrong. I dunno how to reconcile those two principles, so I will remain neutral. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC) "Mobster" is entirely different, if you look at that category, it is composed of people with a variety of ethnic backgrounds. The label defines a criminal who is part of organized crime, not solely people of a certain ethnic background. Personally, I think the appropriate subcategories for a loaded term like "Criminal" would be by Nationality, by Type of Crime, by Occupation (if it is relevant), by Criminal Teams/Organizations/Gangs and by Era (18th century, 21st century?). Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete This, but keep the mobsters subcat intact as part of the larger mobster categorization by ethnicity scheme. In fact, why not delete the entire Category:American criminals by ethnic or national origin scheme? – Philosopher Let us reason together. 04:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I targeted this category because several articles got added to it recently. But we can add those other pages. Can someone help me group them together? I rarely spend time at CFD. Zagal e jo^^^ 05:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - I am a strong supporter of categories for occupation by ethnicity. However, I am not entirely sure how I feel about this group of categories for criminals by ethnicity. That said, this particular category should NOT be singled out for deletion. We should either debate all of the sub-cats together, or not at all. Cgingold (talk) 08:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral. This category is a perfect illustration of the dysfunctionality of the categorisation logic imposed on us by the inadequacy of the technology.
 * Delete I would support this category if all criminals were sorted according to their ethnicity but there are just categories for ethnic minorities (and a Finnish criminal is thrown in there for some reason). I'd say eliminate Hispanic and Latin American criminals and Puerto Rican criminals, too. I think of how people search and it's more likely for someone to be looking for a 19th century politician convicted of fraud than a "African-American criminal". It's just a way to divide a group up, it doesn't serve any purpose to group criminals by ethnicity.
 * Delete most One exception is Category:Puerto Rican criminals. That is not a category by ethnicity, but a category by quasi-nationality. Its survival is similar to the survival of Category:Welsh criminals. Puerto Rica has a complex status. The category is meant to group people who are in some way from Puerto Rico, it would not hold people who merely have Puerto Rican ancestors.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment If we dislike the effect of categories created while following our guidelines, I think we need to consider changing the guidelines. Although, if Category:African-American criminals can be deleted because it "furthers stereotyping", on what grounds do we keep Category:American mobsters of Italian descent, which is furthering a stereotype that if anything is even more pronounced.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My guess that more reliable sources can be found on the intersection of criminals and ethnicity than for any of the Jewish actors/actors of Fooian descent, and all those categories that the throngs feel like keeping despite WP:CATGRS; much the more notable intersection but just doesn't feel right. Why people need to subdivide everything by race and ethnicity around here is perplexing. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete all but Puerto Rican; which is a "nationality". Per WP:CATGRS; note: many of those folks who need to have football players, actors, etc. by ethnicity draw the line here. Why? There is no reason other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. WP:CATGRS should be applied equally everywhere for all categories to avoid (the appearance of?) hypocrisy. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete all but Puerto Rican per John Pack Lambert -- Y not? 20:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. There seems to be a consensus to remove these categories, If that is the case when the discussion is closed, please can this be done by merger rather than deletion.  For example, Category:American criminals of Mexican descent should be merged to Category:American people of Mexican descent. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Coal Valley, Illinois
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: withdrawn by nominator request. The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:People from Coal Valley, Illinois to Category:People from Rock Island County, Illinois
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Only has 2 entries. ...William 02:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.