Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 23



Category:Novel Series started in 1997

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: upmerge to Category:Novel series. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting novel series started in 1997


 * Nominator's rationale: Non-notable cross-category with only one member Aristophanes 68   (talk)  20:09, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support: Category creator was indeffed for WP:COMPETENCE issues. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:43, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Editor2020 15:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LGBT topics and religion

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:LGBT topics and religion to Category:LGBT and religion
 * Nominator's rationale: Before a semi-related CFD for documentary films is complete, I must ask: do we really need "topics"? No sibling in Category:LGBT has it. If successful, I'd speedily rename the subcategories for each individual faith. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Support (although there are two other LGBT subcats that use "topics" -- but I'm fine with renaming those also) Aristophanes 68   (talk)  20:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's true, my mistake: there are two categories that end with "LGBT topics," and I didn't note those. BTW, I'm of the opinion that "LGBT and foo" should be the construction, as it makes sense to me that the human subject and not the topic should come first, as the "x." Does that make sense to people and do we agree? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:52, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. Aristophanes 68   (talk)  20:58, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support in every of the beforementioned cases. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Editor2020 15:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment there are more than two, see more complete list at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies. On the merits of the renaming proposal: oppose, for the reasons given at the WikiProject talk page I linked. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't seem firmly opposed to this nom at that talk page discussion. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 12:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to, (1) as long as no better solution can be agreed upon, (2) as long as it isn't recognized this affects more than two categories, and (3) as long as it isn't recognized that for many of the categories that use "LGBT topics" in their name this is far from an acceptable solution. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyhow, feel free to suggest, here is the full list of the non-people cats afaik:
 * Category:LGBT topics and Islam &rarr; ?
 * Category:LGBT topics and Judaism &rarr; ?
 * Category:LGBT topics and Hinduism &rarr; ?
 * Category:Ageing and LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * Category:LGBT topics and Christianity &rarr; ?
 * Category:LGBT topics and Buddhism &rarr; ?
 * Category:Documentary films about LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * Category:LGBT topics in the African diaspora &rarr; ?
 * Category:Multiculturalism and LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * Category:Immigration and LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It might also be useful to consult the WP:AND policy regarding the proposal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As for the people categories (the ones I'm currently most interested in), they don't have the "and" flaw, still I'm looking for improvement if any is possible (inserting "and" in the name would be a deterioration, not an improvement, same for omitting "topics" imho):
 * Category:Historians of LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * Category:Critics of LGBT topics &rarr; ?
 * --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I miss the point why you oppose the nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a better solution
 * Consistency, and Precision
 * WP:AND (which becomes somewhat more acute with the proposed new name)
 * WP:SEPARATE the proposed new name doesn't make clear whether or not the category belongs to the "people" category tree. The qualifier "topics" would indicate a no-people category, but when that isn't made clear by omitting "topics":
 * WP:OCASSOC issues
 * WP:BLPCAT issues --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC) - updated 05:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wars involving Persia‎

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:39, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Wars involving Persia‎‎ to Category:Wars involving Iran‎
 * Nominator's rationale:: Iranian history contains and is largely equivalent to Persian history, in accordance with the tree of Category:History of Iran and the larger part of the tree of Category:Military history of Iran. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - subcategories show much more Persia than Iran involved, e.g. Category:Greco-Persian Wars, Category:Ottoman–Persian Wars, and Category:Russo-Persian Wars. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a linguistic issue. Europeans have used 'Persia' and the adjective 'Persian' for a long time, so I wouldn't propose to change the names of these historically known wars. But it did involve Iranian dynasties and Iranian people. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If the common English usage is "Persian", then "Persian" is should remain. It's also difficult to say that these wars "involve Iranian dynasties and Iranian people" but not "involve Persian dynasties and Persian people", if that's the basis of your point. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not as difficult as it seems, since Category:Wars involving the Parthian Empire (i.e. Parthian, not Persian) is also a childcat in this category. While Parthian and for example Sasanian are both considered to be Iranian. Quote from Sasanian Empire: The Sasanian Empire (...) is the last Iranian empire before the rise of Islam Marcocapelle (talk) 17:39, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Support HistoryofIran 12:17, 5 September 2014
 * Merge Iran has been the long-standing name for the country as used by its residents, and it eventually came to be used world-wide, but there is no political change connected with this.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Military history of Persia‎

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:40, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Military history of Persia‎ to Category:Military history of Iran‎
 * Nominator's rationale:: Most military content has already been upmerged previously, these are some final entries yet to follow. In accordance with Category:History of Iran tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose the Persian empire was much more than modern-day Iran. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The empire stretched out in the area where Iranian peoples live, which is way beyond Pars (Persia). According to Persia_(name), Persia as an indication of the empire is an exonym. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Exonyms are perfectly fine if they are the English one and appropriate to the period. Your argument to the contrary is weak: go and try and change all the Germany categories to Deutschland to see how well that progresses and note we have Category:Wars involving the Holy Roman Empire to distinguish that polity from what followed. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the example relates. Iran is a common English country name, while Deutschland isn't. In addition Category:History of Germany contains childcats like Category:Franks and Category:Habsburg Monarchy, apparently a History of ..country category is allowed to contain the history of the geographical area of a current country. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Support HistoryofIran 12:18, 5 September 2014


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sieges involving the Sassanid Empire‎

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sieges involving the Sassanid Empire‎ to Category:Sieges involving the Sasanian Empire‎
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename in accordance with the rest of the tree of Category:Sasanian Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Rename per nominator....William 17:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Battles of the Roman–Sassanid Wars

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Battles of the Roman–Sassanid Wars to Category:Battles of the Roman–Sasanian Wars
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename in accordance with the rest of the tree of Category:Sasanian Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Rename per nominator....William 17:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Speedy Change Clear naming convention. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Eran Spahbeds

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Eran Spahbeds to Category:Spahbeds
 * Nominator's rationale: Smallcat (lead article + 1 person's article). Eran Spahbed is one specific type of the more common Spahbed (Persian general). Marcocapelle (talk) 15:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:SMALLCAT. Editor2020 15:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hindu views

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Hindu views to Category:Hinduism and society
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename, since views is a very broad term which could eventually also include dogmatic views etc. By renaming, the purpose of the category becomes more specific. Also, it will be consistently named with parent Category:Religion and society. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Aristophanes 68   (talk)  20:13, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Buddhist views

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Buddhist views to Category:Buddhism and society
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename, since views is a very broad term which could eventually also include dogmatic views etc. By renaming, the purpose of the category becomes more specific. Also, it will be consistently named with parent Category:Religion and society. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support: Aristophanes 68   (talk)  21:15, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It also has a parent category Category:Views by religion. Do you plan on renaming all the other subcategories of Category:Views by religion? p.s. Category:Buddhist belief and doctrine also exists for doctrine and dogma. Editor2020 15:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I would have planned so, if not for Category:Muslim views which exactly suffers from the problem of a category grown too big because of lack of clear inclusion criteria. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:States by religious status

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Religion and government. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:States by religious status to Category:Religious typology of states
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename, the current name is confusing, as it suggests that all states are being classified by their religious status, which is really not what this category is about. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Only Stefanomione would think this a good idea. I expect 'states by paradigm' is on his to-do list, just after 'parameters by philosophy'. Delete it. 'States' has about 20 possible meanings. (I suspect Stefanomione is a computer script, designed to produce random phrases.) Oculi (talk) 09:07, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I've no idea about Stefanomione's intentions, but I think the category can stay as is, only the title should be improved. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You'll have to improve on 'States'. is about something else (and should itself be renamed), so 'States by xxx' or 'xxx of States' don't work. What are the inclusion criteria for this category? How is Category:Theocracies improved by adding this to its parents? Or Christian republic?  Oculi (talk) 21:49, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. A better name could be Category:Religious typology of forms of government which could be parented to Category:Forms of government and to Category:Religion and politics or to Category:Religion and society instead of the current parenting. By the way, I took the liberty to move Category:Theocracies to Category:Countries by form of government in this same tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Alternative Rename to Category:Theocracy. This is really about types of theocracy and even has a main article, not about the relationship between church and state in general. The subcategory Category:Theocracies would then include the specific examples of theocracies. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure, because there are quite a few articles here that don't fit with theocracy. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * How about Category:Religion and government? That seems to be what the articles included are about. Editor2020 03:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough! Marcocapelle (talk) 19:32, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Secular state doesn't but I think all the others do. Also open to Editor2020's suggestion. RevelationDirect (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment The only current Jewish state is not a theocracy, and has been controled for much of its history by secularists, some of whom were basically Buddhists. It is actually Jewish more by ethnicity than religion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Baseball players from Syracuse, New York

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Sportspeople from Syracuse, New York and Category:Baseball players from New York. – Fayenatic  L ondon 23:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Baseball players from Syracuse, New York to Category:Baseball in Syracuse, New York
 * Nominator's rationale: First few if any of these players are from Syracuse. Consensus is that a person isn't from Foo if there only connection to Foo is that they played for one of Foo's sports teams. Also per numerous CSDs we don't subcategorize athletes this way. All these categories should be merged into Baseball in Syracuse, New York ...William 02:09, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment – there's no need to merge as it only has subcats each of which is already in the sub-tree for Category:Baseball in Syracuse, New York. It will certainly tempt editors to start adding individuals so delete seems a good idea. Is Beckham from Los Angeles? I think he's from East London. Oculi (talk) 07:57, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. This is a new category, still needing further population. Even a cursory review would find quite a few baseball players from Syracuse. Kind regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. Further population isn't the point- All these categories were populated at the time a CSD was started but ended up getting deleted just a few days ago, and what you did was overcategorization because all those players you moved were already categorized 'Sportspeople from Syracuse, New York'. This is at least the 6th CSD on this topic- Categorization of athletes by city, 4 resulted in the city categories being deleted, the last two CSDs, this and here- a almost guaranteed merge and delete- are the others....William 14:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply. Thanks for this further information and references; helps me see the broader context and issue. Kind regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 00:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Upmerge into Category:Sportspeople from Syracuse, New York and Category:Baseball players from New York. CfD has been consistent in not splitting athletes by sport below the state level.  Precedence with Portland, Oregon; Chicago, Illinois and San Francisco, California.  It's going too deep to be a meaningful, defining category for people. Rikster2 (talk) 01:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is the San Francisco discussion for reference. I can dig up the others if people like. Rikster2 (talk) 01:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Upmerge per Rikster2 given the precedents at CfDs. Jrcla2 (talk) 04:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.