Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 July 22



American women engineers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was:  at 2014 AUG 20. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Upmerge Category:American women engineers to Category:Women in engineering and to Category:American engineers if not in an acceptable sub-cat.
 * Upmerge Category:Iranian women engineers to Category:Women in engineering and to Category:Iranian engineers
 * Upmerge Category:Canadian women engineers to Category:Women in engineering and to Category:Canadian engineers if not already in an ERGS free sub-cat.
 * Nominator's rationale With over 850 articles in the parent, it is evident that Category:American engineers is not effectively split by non-gender means, and so it would seem to be better to upmerge this to its parents than to have it sit as a functional last rung category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Per my comments here, I believe existence of gendered categories should not be subject to existence of other sub-category types. A non-diffusion approach should render the last rung rule unnecessary. SFB 17:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support merge. Gender is usually not a defining characteristic within a profession. (There's a similar CfD with women historians running.) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, this is not similar to the issue for women historians. Here, I am proposing that we keep a separate category for women in engineering, I am only proposing that we do not split it by nationality.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right. In the light of the historians discussions, I would rather favour only merging to Category:fooian engineers actually. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Images of Jena Irene

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic  L ondon 07:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting images of jena irene


 * Nominator's rationale: per WP:SMALLCAT. There is no need to have a category for one image.  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 21:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Small category not beneficial to navigation. SFB 18:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Serves no navigation purpose. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Mesoamerican art historians

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 07:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Rename Category:Mesoamerican art historians to Category:Historians of Mesoamerican art
 * Nominator's rationale This category is meant to be based on the topic of study of the art historians, not to reflect their nationality. The general trend for topic of study categories is to go with Historians + of + subject of study. see for example Category:Historians of the Latter Day Saint movement and Category:Historians of France.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:26, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Another example is Category:Historians of African art.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Proposed name separates the two logical elements. SFB 18:58, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Clarifies adjective. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support both -- I think there was a recent precedent for this. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: for the record, this used to be in Category:Pre-Columbian art historians, but that was very small and has been emptied by the nominator. – Fayenatic  L ondon 07:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Music geography

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: procedural close. Please wait for the other discussion to be closed. – Fayenatic  L ondon 23:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Music geography to Category:Geographical categorization of music
 * Alternative rename Category:Music geography to Category:Music by geographical categorization
 * Nominator's rationale: I had a proposal for renaming to "Music by place" at July the 2nd, and got equal support and opposition, before I abandoned the proposal, because of this big new idea: Category:Music by place would've been well suited for categorizing the topic music by city, continent, country, region. But is that all that we want? Maybe we want to categorize by nationality, ethnicity, language and other attributes. These all categorize also by location of music, but not only by location, and can therefore not be included in Category:Music by place. My proposed title Category:Geographical categorization of music is best suited for combining a classification by place and the other geographical factors. It would make Category:Musica lot tidier, and add clarity and logic to the category system. -- CN1 (talk) 19:08, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

1933 establishments in Indonesia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename/merge. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Rename Category:1933 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1933 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1932 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1932 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1931 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1931 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1929 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1929 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1928 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1928 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1927 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1927 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1925 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1925 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1924 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1924 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1923 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1923 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1915 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1915 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Rename Category:1914 establishments in Indonesia to Category:1914 establishments in the Dutch East Indies
 * Nominator's rationale This is meant to reflect the actual situation and name of the place at the time these things were established there. The general consensus has been to go with this course of action, as can be seen with such categories as Category:1935 establishments in Tanganyika, Category:1935 establishments in Northern Rhodesia and many more.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support clear naming convention. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support -- The convetnion is that we name things according to the contemporary polity, but since the areas are much the same, we should not have a separate Dutch East Indies parent. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - There was no Indonesia in 1933, or 1914. It was the Dutch East Indies. We should reflect this, rather than try and revise history. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

1935 establishments in the Republic of the Congo

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename per nomination. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Rename Category:1935 establishments in the Republic of the Congo to Category:1935 establishments in French Equitorial Africa
 * Nominator's rationale It was not the Republic of the Congo in 1935. An alternate rename might be to Category:1935 establishments in French Congo or Category:1935 establishments in Middle Congo.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support F.E.A. This fits nicely into Category:Establishments in French Equatorial Africa by year. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Pre-1960 establishments in The Democractic Republic of the Congo

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L 'ondon 13:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Rename Category:1935 establishments in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Category:1935 establishments in the Belgian Congo
 * Rename Category:1936 establishments in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Category:1936 establishments in the Belgian Congo
 * RenameCategory:1938 establishments in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Category:1938 establishments in the Belgian Congo
 * Rename Category:1939 establishments in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Category:1939 establishments in the Belgian Congo
 * Nominator's rationale This area was known as the Belgian Congo from 1908 until 1960. There are already 5 categories that use the Belgian Congo name. The use of contemporary names for this type of category has generally been the decision that has come out of discussions on such categories. We have such categories as Category:1936 establishments in the Soviet Union, Category:1936 establishments in British Malaya, Category:1936 establishments in Czechoslovakia, Category:1936 establishments in Yugoslavia, Category:1936 establishments in French West Africa, Category:1936 establishments in Siam, Category:1936 establishments in French Indochina, and Category:1936 establishments in Portuguese Guinea, are just 1936 categories that reflect this use of 1936 names and boundaries.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Dated country categories should use the naming of that country during that period. II also support other proposals listed above on the same basis. SFB 19:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Matches name at that period. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - the chronological scope of each of these categories is entirely during the time when that area was known as "Belgian Congo", so the category names should refelct that. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per much precedent, but they should remain with a DRC parent, also any Zaire categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Military athletes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete all. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Military athletes to Category:Military sportspeople
 * Nominator's rationale: The term athlete in this context is ambiguous as to whether it refers to athletes in sports in general, or more narrowly competitors in the sport of athletics. Athletics has quite a distinguished connection with the military, stemming from its origins to present day, so this is a term well in need of disambiguation. SFB 16:36, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Related nominations
 * Category:American military athletes
 * Category:Austrian military athletes
 * Category:Belarusian military athletes‎
 * Category:British military athletes‎
 * Category:Chilean military athletes
 * Category:Chinese military athletes‎
 * Category:Czech military athletes
 * Category:Dutch military athletes‎
 * Category:Estonian military athletes‎
 * Category:Finnish military athletes
 * Category:French military athletes‎
 * Category:German military athletes‎
 * Category:Indian military athletes
 * Category:Italian military athletes‎
 * Category:Latvian military athletes‎
 * Category:Lithuanian military athletes‎
 * Category:Norwegian military athletes‎
 * Category:Polish military athletes‎
 * Category:Russian military athletes
 * Category:Slovak military athletes‎
 * Category:Slovenian military athletes
 * Category:Soviet military athletes‎
 * Category:Swedish military athletes‎
 * Category:Swiss military athletes
 * Category:Ukrainian military athletes‎
 * Delete As best I can tell this is a intersection of two careers category, and I see no good reason to have this one. It also seems to be being misused, since the military patrol sub-cats do not seem to be related to the parent category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom as unrelated intersection. I assume all included articles are already in more specific categories for both the military and athlete aspects so no merger should be necessary. postdlf (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Sorry, I should probably have mentioned that this is to do with people's association with national military sports clubs, so it's more of a club type category than an occupation one. For example, see Category:Italian military athletes for more specific divisions of the clubs. The Military World Games is the top level event for such military associated athletes. Not sure whether this changes your perspective or not. SFB 21:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * From the artilces I have read, I have seen no mention to the people being associated with national military sports clubs, it appears to just categorize athletes who were in the military. There are no guidelines anywhere that would change this. Even if there were, I see no evidence these sports clubs are defining to the people involved.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Real tennis venues

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Real tennis venues to Category:Venues of real tennis
 * Nominator's rationale: The current name of the category sounds like it's refering to tennis venues that are real, and not venues of a game called "real tennis". עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Weak support It's not very unlikely that someone may see this as the other side of "fictional tennis venues", but the outcome is still an improvement in this regard. SFB 16:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose Rename The current name matches the overwhelming standard in the parent Category:Sports venues by sport. I'm not sure that there are many imaginary real tennis venues or if anyone would erroneously place non-imaginary places here rather than in Category:Tennis venues, but I don't see why these imaginary concerns should sway the naming of a real sport. Alansohn (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * We do, already, have some categories which are named different than their tree for clarity purposes - for example, Category:People from Northern Ireland belongs to the "Fooian people" tree. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment this should all use "royal tennis", since this is about royal tennis, as this is not about "real" tennis versus "table tennis", which if you think of "tennis" as a head category with subcategories for types of tennis, then common tennis may be referred to as "'real' tennis", therefore this is an ambiguous category. As for fictional vs real, we should use "real-world" to distinguish those, if necessary, and create a different subcategory for that. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the sport we're talking about here is the subject of the Real tennis article. Secondly, the issue nhere isn't what we would call a category about real-world venues of tennis, but what we should call the category for venus of real tennis. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That is my point. Your rename still makes it ambiguous. As 'royal tennis' is an alternate name for that sport, it also removes ambiguity with real-world venues of tennis, and venues of common tennis. Category:Venues of royal tennis would not give confusion between normal tennis and other forms of tennis, nor would it give confusion between the real world and non-real. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 07:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity of "real tennis" exists with the article name, too. If/when the article is renamed, the category tree will be renaed accordingly. Until then, though, there's a different ambiguity issue - whether the "real" goes with the "tennis" or the "venues"; my proposal deals with that ambiguity. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Rename but to Category:Venues for real tennis. Football stadia are not "Venues of football" but venues for football (matches).  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose rename The sport is called Real tennis and the current name is accoring to the standard used in the parent Category:Sports venues by sport. Tennis has Tennis venues, Real tennis has Real tennis venues.--Wolbo (talk) 11:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * We do make exceptions due to ambiguity - for example, we have, and , but  to disambiguate from Georgia (U.S. state). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Novels set in Namaqualand

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, by weight of argument. I will move the two novels up into Category:Namaqualand anyway. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting novels set in namaqualand


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Delete for WP:SMALLCAT. Mikeblas (talk) 03:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - October (novel) is already in Category:Novels set in South Africa, which is sufficient. 78.145.170.87 (talk) 09:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's a region straddling two countries, famous for its flora. Quite a few novels are set there, eg Flowers in the Sand. As coverage of African topics improves, this category is likely to grow. Andreas JN 466 18:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:SMALLCAT says, "Note also that this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth, such as a category for holders of a notable political office, may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time." And location is a specific example of when it is appropriate to add a smaller category, "However, location may be used as a way to split a large category into subcategories. For example,Category:American writers by state." The intent of overcategorization editing guideline (and it is a guideline not policy) is to avoid trivial categories. Category:Novels set in Namaqualand is not a trivial categorization. Sydney Poore/FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 20:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep This category recognizes the pre-colonial region populated by the Nama people.Kmccook (talk) 23:13, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Neither of the current 2 articles mentions the Nama people. The actual novels may, but the current articles about them do not. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Boer War fiction and a ANC activism fit neatly into the South African category. No objection to recreating if additional articles are added. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete This category could have made sense if parent Category:Novels set in South Africa would have been split into a multitude of regions already, but that is not the case. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment -- This appears to refer to a region that straddles the South Africa/ Namibia boundary; if so, it might bhe legitimate, but in fact, both seem largely to be about South Africa. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete While Namaqualand does go well into Namibia, these novels are both set in South Africa. Also, categorizing novels by the non-political or cultural geographical area they are set in is not a widespread practice. Even if it was, we do not need it here. It just creates more small, not useful to navigation categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.