Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 May 16



Category:Fictional European people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. If we ignore the comments of the blocked sockpuppet (the nominator), all we are left with is two users whose opinions seem pretty much at odds with each others'. This is without prejudice to an immediate or later nomination. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:25, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose Renaming
 * Category:Fictional Baltic peoples to Category:Fictional Baltic people
 * Category:Fictional Gypsies to Category:Fictional Romani people
 * Nominator's rationale:
 * Likely a naming error?
 * Consistent with Category:Fictional representations of Romani people parent category
 * --Tranquility of Soul (talk) 23:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose "Gypsy" requires WP:Original research. Fictional gypsies do not mean they are Romani. Fictional gypsies are widely varying in their backgrounds. If the source in fiction does not make it clear, they cannot be called Romani without original research on our part. Instead a separate subcategory for Romani should be created. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Support As long as we do not use other pejorative terms, we should not use Gypsy. What next "fictional niggers"?John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * If the only description of the fictional person is as gypsy, then, they should be removed? -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 04:00, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Please note that this nomination is by a sock puppet of Sockpuppet investigations/CensoredScribe. While not commenting on the original discussion it should be noted that WP:DENY might be taken into account. MarnetteD | Talk 21:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Albums by voice actors

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting albums by voice actors


 * Also nominating: songs by voice actors


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Unnecessary diffuson of the albums and songs categories by profession. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 20:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:23, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Television series by technology

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting television series by technology


 * Propose deleting Category:Television series shot in 35 mm
 * Propose deleting Category:Television series shot in high-definition video
 * Propose deleting Category:Television series shot in Super 16
 * Nominator's rationale: The technology that was used to film a TV series may be of interest to some readers, but it's not something that's usually considered of sufficient importance to be mentioned in the lead of an article (if it's mentioned at all in the article text) and in that sense it's not a WP:DEFINING characteristic. For info: See similar CFD:  Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_17.  For info: Of the thousands of wp articles about TV series's only 8 articles are currently in this category tree. DexDor (talk) 20:37, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't remember why I created this category but I was probably mirroring Category:Films by technology. In any case, the nominator's rationale makes sense in light of the recent cleanup of the latter category. (last month's debate). Pichpich (talk) 21:03, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Commonwealth Games tennis players by year

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Commonwealth Games tennis players by year to Category:Commonwealth Games tennis players
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow structure within parent Category:Commonwealth Games competitors by sport where year cats are in the parent player category (content is minimal in these categories otherwise). SFB 20:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Aborted albums

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:56, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Aborted albums to Category:Aborted (band) albums
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename. While the main article for the category is named Aborted, it seems the category as named is more ambiguous - as an album that was planned but aborted. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 17:05, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Rename Good catch. Pichpich (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Support There could be confusion with that category name. Liz  Read! Talk! 15:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Strong rename per nom -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 03:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Epic films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:29, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting epic films


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. The epic films category should just go. Look at the epic film article and its warnings templates saying how impossible it is to objectively tell whether a movie is "epic". This can never become anything more than an argument and a headache. CapnZapp (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep the epic film article has just one tag, stating that it possibly contains original research. Not that it does, but it might. This is a clearly defined genre and individual edit wars at article level should be discussed on the talkpage of that article (just like any genre, for that matter).  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 12:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * If I thought "epic" was a "clearly defined genre" I would not have nominated the category for deletion. CapnZapp (talk) 07:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep An "epic" film is a sourcable concept. See The Encyclopedia of Epic Films for a start. Like many genre classifications there is a huge grey area and the category is often abused on Wikipedia, but that's an argument for more stringent application of our policies and guidelines rather than scrapping it altogether. If the "epic genre" is recognized by the American Film Institute then we should retain the category alongside our other genre categories. Betty Logan (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I came here because Gravity (film) was added to the category. When I visit its page on AFI, the only genre it is listed as is "science fiction" (a huge can of worms in itself). I can undo the addition but instead of having to defend my action (why Gravity is or isn't epic) I would MUCH rather not have such a fuzzy genre category at all... CapnZapp (talk) 07:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep as a verifiable genre. Per WP:CAT, "Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories." This is how we justify a particular categorization. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 12:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Possibly irrelevant comment: That seems flawed to me - just by finding one good source a film could then be included in a particular category. But what about the possibility that it isn't included in nine other equally good sources? CapnZapp (talk) 07:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * delete The article on epic films itself says that the genre is ill-defined and that different authorities have wildly disparate notions of its scope. One person is quoted as saying that "Surely one of the hardest film genres to define is that of the 'epic' film[.]" I don't see how we can put a limit on what goes into it when the AFI criterion defines so much smaller a set than anyone else; once we decide that they are not the ultimate authority on this it's not going to be possible to decide who is, and we'll get what we have now: any film that anyone, anywhere, has acclaimed as "epic". Mangoe (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Genre classification is subjective by nature, so it is inconsistent to retain some widely identifiable genre categories and drop others. For instance, no-one disputes science-fiction as a genre, but there is widely varying opinion about whether Brazil (1985 film) comes under its scope. This is true of every genre and the "epic" is no exception in regard. Betty Logan (talk) 18:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no significant dispute about what constitutes an SF film, but three is sometimes disagreement over whether a particular film, but in the case of epics I'm seeing basic disagreements over how the category is constituted. Mangoe (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Some definitions are broader than others but I have yet to come across any source covering the topic dispute that something like DeMille's The Ten Commandments is an epic. Sources on the whole are pretty consistent in regards to biblical/historical epics: there is a clear group of films that are epics. Betty Logan (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Then you are talking about some other genre and definition than what is present on Wikipedia, Betty. First off, just because you can find an archetype doesn't mean a category is needed. Second, if you were to propose a narrowing down of the genre definition I could support that, but only if coupled with a name change. "Epic" in itself is repeatedly interpreted as much more than what you are saying. Like it or not, people are NOT using the word "epic" as you might. It simply means much more in contemporary usage than before. A category called "Historical epic" or "Epic (literary genre)" would be MUCH more workable, though I will say I understand any sentiment thinking such to be cumbersome. CapnZapp (talk) 07:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Epic films are in the eye of the beholder, such as "breakout films", "hit films", "influential films", "film flops", "boring films", and nearly any other subjective adjective you'd like to apply. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Demonstrably not the case: AFI top 10 epic (American Film Institute), The Epic Film in World Culture (written by Professor and Chair of Film Studies at the University of St Andrews), The Encyclopedia of Epic Films (written by professors and lecturers in film studies), The Epic Film: Myth and History (written by senior editor for Variety), The Epic in Film: From Myth to Blockbuster (written by professor emeritus), Epics, Spectacles, and Blockbusters (a lecturer and professor); the "epic" has been the subject of widespread study and analysis within academia and film writing and is widely accepted as an explicit style of film-making unlike "hits" and "flops". Betty Logan (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Carlos - this isn't Epic as in "cool", but epic as in the film variety of Category:Epic poetry. SFB 08:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Betty, you make a compelling case why the genre should exist. But since we're discussing a category, we're discussing something subtly different. If we could agree to ONLY place films used by those sagacious sources in the category, then there would be no problem. CapnZapp (talk) 07:47, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep as a long-standing verifiable literary genre. --Tranquility of Soul (talk) 23:48, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep per above.♦ Dr. Blofeld  06:03, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Epic is not any more defined that any other genre, such as Category:Horror films. Delete arguments seem to call into question the whole practice of categorising by genre, which though imperfect in design is essential to any meaningful categorisation of art. SFB 08:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, you have successfully shot down your own straw man argument. Cheers, CapnZapp (talk) 07:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep Lush and high budgeted films like Star Wars, LOTR and Cleopatra may be of completely different genres but their spectacle feel make them epic films and thus should be under that subgenre. User:Meganesia (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Feel free to head over to the Epic film page and help out improving that page. CapnZapp (talk) 07:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep All genre classifications are subject to dispute (is a movie a drama or a thriller? an album country or bluegrass?) so that doesn't seem like reason enough to delete. If this is a recognized genre of films, with books written on it, it should be an acceptable category. Liz  Read! Talk!</b> 15:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment I might add that had the Genre article been better maintained I could see a stronger point of keeping the category. As it is now, I feel people saying "Keep" is basing that on out-of-wiki knowledge. My proposal is based on that "Oh? An epic films category? I better head over to the main article to find out what that's all about" is currently a failing strategy. In short: my proposal could and perhaps should be seen as "delete until better grounded by its main article". CapnZapp (talk) 07:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * And you could have that apply to any category. Which of course, would be ridiculous.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 08:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ratchet (music genre)
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:53, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting ratchet (music genre)


 * Nominator's rationale: As indicated here, category represents a false genre. Should be deleted as there is not enough coverage from reliable third-party sources to meet WP:GNG. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 08:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete STATic message me!   14:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Left-handed people
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete and salt; early close per WP:SNOW and G4, since as noted below this has been discussed and deleted a number of times. (The salting might not be that effective in permanently fixing the issue because even after salting a user could create Category:Left handed people or Category:People who are left handed as well as a dozen other variations.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting left-handed people


 * Nominator's rationale: Not a WP:DEFINING characteristic if the vast majority of these people (if not all) and also WP:BLP issues. The Bushranger One ping only 07:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * If the vast majority what? Are you calling left-handed people "these people"? And also BLP issues? Please consider writing in complete and coherent sentences. Thank you. CapnZapp (talk) 07:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete agree with nom, categories provide encyclopaedic linking of people eg by occupation ir place of origin but being left handed (and not everyone on the category would definitely say they are left handed) is hardly an encyclopaedic categorisation. LibStar (talk) 07:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete as not a defining characteristic for by far the most people who are lefties. Binksternet (talk) 07:17, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete adds no significant detail to people's articles. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep (I'm the creator of it btw, am I allowed to voice an opinion?) I think it's an interesting factor. Homosexuality is the most trivial thing on a person and yet it has its own categories (homosexuality doesn't define a person, but then it's characterized here). User:Meganesia (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * That's because, according to society, yes, yes it is very defining. Perhaps at some point in the future it won't be and we'll see the various LGBT categories accordingly deleted then, but right now this isn't apples and oranges, it's apples and cabbages. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete not a distinguishing/notable trait. Also it is being added where nothing in the article indicates the individual even is left-handed. -- ‖  Ebyabe  talk -  Opposites Attract  ‖ 14:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * delete This is significant for several sports (and in certain swordplay) but otherwise is trivial. Mangoe (talk) 17:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt. This is the very definition of a non-defining characteristic. Nymf (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * delete and salt hasn't this been discussed? or at least it's probably listed as an example of things not to do, not defining in the slightest.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete no defining. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete - Far too trivial to be included in the thousands of appropriate articles --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:48, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Listify and upmerge Still interesting trivia (Obama is left-handed?!) for topics I might not have otherwise known, if not defining. --Tranquility of Soul (talk) 23:40, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There was once a list, deleted for same reason. Rothorpe (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that this category has been deleted four times before and a more specific left-handedness category was also booted. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:59, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case, this category should also be salted. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:25, 17 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete and salt per the consensus. STATic message me!   02:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment for some people this is in fact defining. Left-handed pitchers and batters in baseball, for instance. For most people it is trivial though. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Being left-handed is not a defining chracteristic of those involved. I say this with confidence as a left hander.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:42, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Icelandic people of Australian descent
<div class="boilerplate vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. I find the arguments for keeping this category stronger. It's clear some editors who advocated deletion are unhappy with the whole "descent" structure, but these has been no compelling evidence presented as to why just this one should be deleted. --BDD (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting icelandic people of australian descent


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. whilst this category contains other categories it contains no actual people. LibStar (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * keep this is part of a standardized category tree of some standing Hmains (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * delete as Australian (as well as American and Canadian) is a nationality, not an ethnicity. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 08:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * that's a very good reason for deletion too. LibStar (talk) 08:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * No such thing. The parent category is Category:Icelandic people by ethnic or national origin.  Notice the 'or'.  Again part of a world-wide established category structure, regardless of the pretense of not understanding the inclusion purpose of the categories. Hmains (talk) 03:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete another unmaintainable descent category. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't even begin to understand how these 'descent' categories are meant to work, but this one is ridiculous. How do we define 'descent' for these categories? It's also interesting how often there are no sources for such categories. Dougweller (talk) 19:55, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * keep --Tranquility of Soul (talk) 23:31, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * you've provided zero reason for keeping. LibStar (talk) 03:13, 17 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a standard type of category for the "of descent" category tree. While looking at it in isolation it might seem ridiculous, there are a lot of small, similar categories within this category tree. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 15:56, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. The tree, includes many forms of national descent. I don't see anyone suggesting we eliminate . It's completely consistent with all the other categories in . The nominator's argument doesn't work, as the sub-category clearly contains "actual people"; is a category containing people. It's preferable to have small, lightly populated but specific subcategories than a giant .<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E   15:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete As functionally empty. Until we can find someone who is actually Icelandic to fit in this cateogry. Australian expatriates are by definition not Icelandic, but Australian.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:45, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Australian expatriates in Iceland are of course of Australian nationality but can also be of Icelandic nationality. "Nationality" does not equal "citizenship", and it's entirely possible (and in fact quite common) for a person to be a national of a country in which they do not hold citizenship. This situation is most common in the case of an expatriate living in a country that is different than their state of citizenship. The problem arises when users assume that nationality and citizenship are equivalents, which they are not. The entire categories structure is done by nationality, not by citizenship. So it's totally reasonable to place Category:Australian expatriates in Iceland as a subcategory of . It's a convenient nesting of the category tree, if nothing else. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep -- This may be a small category, but is part of a long-established class of category, with which we should not meddle save on a general basis. There must be several hundred (if not thousands of) such categories.  We should not seek to be too precise as to what "Austtralian descent" means, as long as it is real.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:00, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.