Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 18



Category:Rus templates Australia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rus templates Australia to Category:Australian rugby union stadium name templates
 * Nominator's rationale: A longer name, but hopefully more useful (especially when out of context). Also, Rus. Sardanaphalus (talk) 22:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Templates should not be used when brief plain text would suffice. I don't see the advantage in using 🇷🇺 instead of Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth (which is much, more intelligible. I propose all instances be substituted and these templates be turned into substitution templates only. Templates are for when information needs updating and modified across a group of articles. That is not what's happening here. SFB
 * I've since noticed similar templates in "Rus..." categories, set up by . I'll point him/her toward this thread. Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)


 * There are several advantages to using the templates. It reduces errors - if the link is piped, typos can occur in the displayed name; using these templates will eliminate articles referring to incorrect or disambiguation pages or having mismatches stadium and town names. It creates consistency across several pages referencing this template (i.e. if the stadium is in a suburb, some articles might reference the suburb, other might reference the town/city, etc). If the stadium name changes, or a new article gets created for one that did not previously exist, then a single update to the template will fix this across all pages referencing this template – which is exactly the "when information needs updating and modified across a group of articles" rationale as mentioned above – and once again, consistency is maintained across all pages without the need for updating several individual articles to ensure this. TheMightyPeanut (talk) 17:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * But most of the uses refer to past matches and competitions. Surely it would be preferable to retain the name of the stadium at the point of play? It would be old to update these instances at a later date to a new stadium name that had not even been conceived at that time. I understand the point about reducing typos: that is why I suggested using this as a substituting template instead (which would achieve the same effect). SFB 22:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Protestant clergy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Protestant clergy to Category:Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:Protestant clergy by period to Category:Protestant religious leaders by century
 * Propose renaming Category:16th-century Protestant clergy to Category:16th-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:17th-century Protestant clergy to Category:17th-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:18th-century Protestant clergy to Category:18th-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:19th-century Protestant clergy to Category:19th-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:20th-century Protestant clergy to Category:20th-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Propose renaming Category:21st-century Protestant clergy to Category:21st-century Protestant religious leaders
 * Nominator's rationale: Merge/Rename.  was renamed to "religious leaders" in June 2013, see Categories for discussion/Log/2013 June 5, and the categories nominated here should follow suit. Note that the contents do not all use "clergy" but a variety of "clergy", "ministers" and "pastors", according to denominational usage. See Category talk:Religious leaders for my overall proposal to rationalise the categories of Christian leaders. – Fayenatic  L ondon 23:14, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support, I am for other terms for some of the subcategories here if those groups primarily use a different term, but when it comes to Protestants in general, there is no real majority term. "Religious leader" is a purely descriptive designator for these people. --JFH (talk) 19:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support nomination and support comment of JFH about subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Birdlife International national partners

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:31, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting birdlife international national partners


 * Nominator's rationale: We don't normally categorize organizations by whether they are in partnership with another organization. Also, this may not be a permanent characteristic.  For info: there is List of Birdlife International national partner organisations. DexDor (talk) 21:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete These organizations are already categorized in Category:Bird conservation organizations. This category doesn't add anything beyond that. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:55, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ukrainian national liberation

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Proposed renaming: Category:Ukrainian national liberation to Category:Ukrainian independence movement
 * Nominator's rationale: Consistency with existing categories (such as Category:Catalan independence movement, Category:East Turkestan independence movement, Category:Indian independence movement, Category:Inner Mongolian independence movement, Category:Korean independence movement, Category:Kurdistan independence movement, Category:Puerto Rican independence movement, Category:Sri Lankan independence movement, Category:Taiwan independence movement, Category:Tibetan independence movement, Category:Tuareg independence movement, Category:Vietnamese independence movement). Charles Essie (talk) 19:35, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support Clear standard is present and the subject fits within this category. SFB 20:37, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in England and Wales

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:31, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in England and Wales


 * Nominator's rationale: In contrast to its name, this category also contains a large number of post-reformation Anglican bishops. The problem is that its child categories (by diocese) aren't split up by pre- and post-reformation. So then you can't really have parent categories split up by pre- and post-reformation either. Another symptom of the same problem is WP:OVERLAPCAT, it overlaps a lot with Category:Anglican bishops by diocese that has a similar collection of child categories by diocese. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete As it stands this category isn't carrying out its specified function as the child categories are mixed and there is little main-category content. FYI Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Scotland seems to have the same issue. I'm not really sure if gathering all the country's pre-reformation bishops into one category (which is what would happen if the specified category's function was actually undertaken) is desirable in the first place either. SFB 20:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete I think having the pre-Reformation (aka Roman Catholic) bishops split out would be beneficial so, if and when someone does that, we can recreate this category. I can't argue for keeping a category that doesn't accurately group articles. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't follow this logic. Split the Roman Catholic bishops into what exactly? There is already a Category:Post-Reformation United Kingdom Catholic bishops - is this the kind of split that you had in mind? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose This category serves a useful purpose in deliberately blurring or avoiding altogether denominational distinctions. If the category was deleted, it would be necessary to immediately create two new categories - Category:Pre-Reformation Anglican bishops in England and Wales and Category:Pre-Reformation Roman Catholic bishops in England and Wales. Each would contain an identical set of members. This duplication is entirely unnecessary by maintaining the current category. The point is that both the Anglican and RC traditions claim continuity with the past and Apostolic succession. It is not for wiki to deny the claims of either party. The problem is altogether avoided by maintaining the current category. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:09, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I would oppose the creation of two new categories for exactly the same rationale as this nominated category. We can't distinguish pre-reformation at parent level if that distinction isn't made at child level. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Of course we can distinguish them. It happened when the first bishop (of London?) was appointed by the King without the approval of the Pope. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Theoretically we could - but the current childcat structure (by diocese) doesn't accommodate for it. So if you insist on keeping the category, then the category should be emptied and every pre-reformation bishop should be added individually. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a better solution than deletion. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm open to that. Emptying a category and building it up from the ground up is not that far off from deletion (with no objection to recreation from scratch). RevelationDirect (talk) 12:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems like we have consensus here. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete -- There was complete organisation continuity at the Reformation in the Church in England. Most of the subcategories rightly combine pre and post Reformation bishops.  Leaving aside the reign of Mary I, there were no RC bishops with sees in England from c.1530 until c.1850.  In the earlier part of the reign of Elizabeth I, there hardly was a RC church in England.  Later in her reign, a surreptious church was (re)established, governed by a vicar-general, who may have had a nominal see in pars infidelum.  Laurel Lodged's two propsoed categfories are in fact one and the same: there was only one church in England before the Reformation.  It is profoundly unhistoric to portay the reformed church in England as a different denomination from the pre-Reformation one.  A few new sees were created by Henry VIII, by dividing medieval ones - Chester, Oxford, and Gloucester spring to mind.  Otherwise the proliferation of Anglican dioceses is a 19th and 20th century phenomenon.  It might conceivably be appropriate to categorise these new diceses as separate from the ancient ones, but much better not to.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:21, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment This is exactly the kind of ugly sectarian argumentation which the current category seeks to side step. It avoids claiming "ownership" for the Pre-Reformation bishops: each side can, with justification, claim them as their own. To delete it means that the RC tree structure would have to "reclaim" their "lost" bishops. Ditto for the Anglican tree structure. The post-reformation arguments above may well be true but are not germane to to this discussion which is confined to the Pre-Reformation period. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree that we should treat this as just a Wikipedia problem (of non-matching categorization schemes at parent and child level) rather than as a dispute to which church these bishops belong. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Germany

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. I see the category was recently created by the nominator, so it should have been accepted as a speedy under WP:C2E. Moreover, all the contents are subcats are sub-cats beginning "German", not "...in Germany", so it would have made sense to accept this.  I suggest that the nominator may create the suggested category anyway, and make it a sub-cat of this one. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Germany to Category:German Roman Catholic clergy
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename this is close to C2C: the proposed name matches with its parent (by nationality, not by country), matches with the most frequently used naming style of its brother categories and matches with all of its child categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment this was opposed as a speedy rename, as it's not a perfect C2C. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think this actually sets a better standard than the ones in the rest of this category. It is better to group bishops together by the country of their diocese, rather than the nationality of the person taking that position. Foreign-born people do occasionally reach these positions (John Sentamu, that I can think of). As the purpose of the occupation is to control a geographic area, it makes sense to treat this by country, rather than nationality. (I recently made the same suggestion around Category:Politicians by nationality). SFB 20:54, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Would you then propose deleting the entire Category:Clergy by nationality tree? That sounds it a bit drastic to me. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support All the sub-cats are by ethnicity (German) not country (Germany) and there are no loose articles. This rename just reflects the actual contents. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose Which parent? If the proposer wants a "by nationality" parent, one already exists - Category:German Roman Catholic bishops. This category, however, is a "by country" categorisation as not every Argentine national bishop has his see in Argentina. If this rename proceeds, it will destroy the basis of all geographical tree structures such as "by continent". A "by nationality" tree could not be admitted to such a structure as it could not guarantee territorial integrity. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant parent Category:Roman Catholic clergy by nationality, sorry if I was unclear about that. It's not that I want this category, I merely saw that this happened to be the parent of the nominated category. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply But Category:Roman Catholic clergy by nationality is not its parent. It's true parent is Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Europe. This is the correct geographical parent. I noticed that the nominated category was not a child of this cat and so have taken the opportunity of linking them. I hope that you don't mind. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually I do mind that you asked me a question without informing me straight away that you made this change. Also I guess this is sort of circular reasoning: you don't agree with the nomination, so you make a change that supports your own view. Then what about the child categories? - they're all nationality based. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose -- The target would include missionary clergy, who have never ministered in Germany. I suspect that the converse - expatriate clergy serving in Germany is less of an issue, but parts of Germany were originally evangelised by Anglo-Saxon clergy.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:25, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you mean that you are on the same track as SFB? If so, see my reply to SFB above. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support to match its sister categories (after the French one is renamed and purged). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose There is reason to group together all Catholic bishops who served in Germany without regard to their nationality. Those who do not think there will be many non-Germans lack a vision of the future, and probably a full vision of the past.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment I just realized this was clergy and not bishops. I know in the US there are now large numbers of Vietnamese, Nigerian and other foriegn Catholic priests. I would be shocked if Germany does not have at least some foriegn Catholic clergy there.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Argentina

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. As above, there is no objection to creating the required category as a new sub-category of this one. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic clergy in Argentina to Category:Argentine Roman Catholic clergy
 * Nominator's rationale: Rename this is close to C2C: the proposed name matches with its parent (by nationality, not by country), matches with the most frequently used naming style of its brother categories and matches with 2 of 3 child categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:17, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment If there is consensus about the proposed rename, the 3rd child category, Category:Roman Catholic bishops in Argentina needs to be removed from this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:17, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Weak Support/Purge The proposal matches 2 of the 3 subcategories which is better than 1. (And that one will be purged per the nominator.)RevelationDirect (talk) 02:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose Which parent? If the proposer wants a "by nationality" parent, one already exists - Category:Argentine Roman Catholic bishops. This category, however, is a "by country" categorisation as not every Argentine national bishop has his see in Argentina. If this rename proceedes, it will destroy the basis of all geographical tree structures such as "by continent". A "by nationality" tree could not be admitted to such a structure as it could not guarantee territorial integrity. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant parent Category:Roman Catholic clergy by nationality, sorry if I was unclear about that. It's not that I want this category, I merely saw that this happened to be the parent of the nominated category. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply But Category:Roman Catholic clergy by nationality is not its parent. It's true parent is Category:Roman Catholic clergy in South America. This is the correct geographical parent. I noticed that the nominated category was not a child of this cat and so have taken the opportunity of linking them. I hope that you don't mind. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support to match its sister cats. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose It is useful to group together all clergy serving in a particular country, without regard to nationality. The early Jesuits in the north of Argentina by Paraguay were almost all foriegners, but their service would primarily be in Argentina.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:38, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Birtnagar

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: G7 speedy delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:People from Birtnagar


 * Nominator's rationale: By request of author. A simple misspelling of Category:People from Biratnagar which I didn't realize at the time and accidently started a new category.Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 13:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Speedy per author's request (WP:C2E) and obvious typo (WP:C2A). RevelationDirect (talk) 02:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.