Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 December 15



Category:Deceased Filipino actors and actresses

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:15, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting deceased filipino actors and actresses


 * Nominator's rationale: Wikipedia doesn't have this type of category for other nationalities, and it doesn't seem like a significant characteristic. ... disco spinster   talk  23:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom; we don't need every human category divided between the living and dead, which this appears to begin. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment In case no one noticed: The CfD template has been removed from Category:Deceased Filipino actors and actresses. Ottawahitech (talk) 02:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me
 * Merge back to Category:Filipino actors and actresses: we do not normally allow present/former category splits; likewise living/dead. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:32, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Peterkingiron: there is no Category:Filipino actors and actresses to merge to. If anything, it would be Category:Filipino actors. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:01, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Wikipedia does not subdivide occupational categories by whether the people are living or dead. Bearcat (talk) 22:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, not merge this time, because the category creator added this as an additional category, and the member pages are already more specifically categorised by gender and medium. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:01, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete The contents are all in more specific male actor or actress categories. We do not create seperate categories for living people and deceased people with the exception of Category:Living people.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. We do have birth year and death year trees and, but it is not helpful or valuable to start comprehensively separating the living from the dead in every individual occupation category. Bearcat (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Unnecessary form of overcategorization. Trivial to generate as a query on wikidata. Example Mduvekot (talk) 20:44, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I do not need to list down this one, so much trivial and waste time. - Supergabbyshoe (talk2me) 19:16, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:English astronauts

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting english astronauts


 * Nominator's rationale: The wp:commonname is Category:British astronauts, see for example Tim Peake launch: The seven Britons to go to space, BBC and British space programme § British astronauts. The nationality of the astronauts follows British nationality law. Deletion of the Category English astronauts has been contested before at Category talk:English astronauts, but the rationale for deletion seems sound. Whizz40 (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Upmerge to Category:British astronauts We don't need two. There are no Welsh, Scots or Ulstermen in orbit. There are not enough Ulstermen in orbit.
 * Even though I wouldn't over-emphasise the nationality aspect (as many had to take US citizenship to join NASA), British is clearer than English. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Query How many more Ulstermen would Andy like to see in orbit? Just a few or we talking total genocide here? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a list... Loudest first. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete and upmerge to Category:British astronauts. As far as I can see, all the astronauts in the category are described as British. None of the news coverage about Tim Peake, for example, describes him as the first Englishman to visit the ISS. Sionk (talk) 13:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge back to Category:British astronauts. There have not been enough to warrant a split into the four home nations.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:34, 20 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:ASB Classic

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename per move of ASB Classic. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:32, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:ASB Classic to Category:WTA Auckland Open
 * Nominator's rationale: per move of parent article, WTA Auckland Open. Mattlore (talk) 22:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heineken Open (tennis)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:42, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Heineken Open (tennis) to Category:ATP Auckland Open
 * Nominator's rationale: Not sure if this should be a speedy or not? Rename to remove old sponsor and match with parent article, ATP Auckland Open. Mattlore (talk) 22:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Festivals by name

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy delete (G7) including all sub-cats. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:04, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting festivals by name


 * Nominator's rationale: Do we need a new tree of Category:Festivals by name and all its children? What is wrong with Category:Festivals? How else does the default categorization work, if not by name? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete all categories of the Festivals by name tree. Festivals are already categorized by name, this is just a duplication of categories. Liz  Read! Talk! 17:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - since festivals are not currently organized by name, despite what Andy says. :) The tree actually prioritizes location of festivals, not festival name. If you take a look, for example, at Category:Festivals in the United Kingdom, you'll see a very good example of the utter chaos that is the festival tree. There are dozens of subcategories for genre and county, and no way to make it easy for people to scan the list of all UK festivals in one place, without clicking away dozens of times. The goal would be, using UK-focused templates, to have Category:Festivals in the United Kingdom by name, list every UK festival in one easy list.
 * Anyways, I think the new "name" category makes scanning possible and more reasonable, and also meshes well with the "name" festival tree already on Wikimedia. It also allows various Category:Festival templates to be used to build the name sections, and make it pretty straightforward and simple for future updaters (just add, for example, a "Template:Rock Festival" template to a rock festival, and it is automatically placed in Category:Rock festivals by name, which would otherwise be an impossibly large category to ever fill up - but if each festival page eventually gets an appropriate template (my dream :b), the category will be nice and complete one day. Earflaps (talk) 20:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * We need festivals organised by name, and grouped by types. MediaWiki categorization will happily do both, in the same categories. The subcategories (implying the types) will be in the upper half of the page, the individual pages (the festivals by name) in the lower half. We don't need to hide "festivals by name" away in a separate sub-cat. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete this and its by-name subcategories. Other categories created by this editor (several hundred in the last couple of weeks) should also be checked. DexDor(talk) 20:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete the entire tree per nom. By the way it seems like creator doesn't understand the difference between lists and categories; furthermore, List of festivals in the United Kingdom already exists. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete the entire tree per nom. This is not a good idea and the creation of this 'by name' tree would not conceivably gain any sort of consensus. (The template "Template:Rock Festival" could put a rock festival into Category:Rock festivals: no need for any new subcat.) Oculi (talk) 11:57, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note - I stand corrected, and clearly took a category tree found I found on wikimedia and erroneously thought it might help here. I've only created a few "name" categories on wikipedia so far, and they can all be easily undone by removing the categories on several templates, and then deleting the category (plus manually removing from a few festival categories). I will cease making any in the future, and follow Oculi's tip above if needed. Earflaps (talk) 15:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Very pertinent question - the "festival by name" category was pre-existing on wikimedia when I found it - should I avoid that tree on wikimedia entirely as well? Earflaps (talk) 15:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Tree emptied - to make it easier to delete. Earflaps (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete all per nom. One of the reasons topics are subcatted by country and type of festival and the like is because an undifferentiated megalist of all festivals, without distinction for nationality or type, would be a massively unbrowsable megacategory — and even if we did want that for some reason, other categories that we already have could serve that function without a "by name" tree existing as a separate thing from the existing structure. Bearcat (talk) 23:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete all - fell the whole tree -- Someone seems to have created a whole tree of unnecessary empty categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete all - confusing, empty, does not aid in navigation or classification. 19:00, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete of the tree per WP:G7 and the creator of the category already emptied the whole tree. This overturns my previous vote. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Districts of Pakistani Punjab

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. It is merge rather than delete, because the convention for places is option 1 as listed under WP:EPONYMOUS. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:42, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Districts of Pakistani Punjab to Category:Districts of Punjab, Pakistan
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate categories 86.161.145.206 (talk) 13:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support rationale. Presumably the nominated category can even be plainly deleted, since the target contains all districts as subcategories instead of as articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:37, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom, they cover the same thing.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:21, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Founders of companies of the United States

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge as nominated. There seems to be a consensus that the location of the company founded is not a defining characteristic of the person being categorized, but the nationality of the founder is, and since there is a major overlap between the two, the nationality ones should be kept and the others deleted. It looks to me like Bearcat in good faith felt that these categories were essentially duplicates and that this is the reason he redirected them; it doesn't seem to me to be an attempt to get around having a CFD and I wouldn't call it an error on his part. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:55, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of the United States to Category:American company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of Canada to Category:Canadian company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of France to Category:French company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of Ireland to Category:Irish company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of Japan to Category:Japanese company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of Spain to Category:Spanish company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Founders of companies of the United States to Category:American company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Company founders by country to Category:Company founders by nationality
 * Nominator's rationale: I caught "Founders of companies of the United States" about an hour ago and categoryredirected it to "American company founders" as a duplicate of an existing category — but this was challenged on the basis that they weren't duplicates, as the key characteristic of "American company founders" was the nationality of the person while the key characteristic of "Founders of companies of the United States" was the location of the company. But the majority of the potential entries for this category are American citizens anyway, meaning that they would end up sitting in both of these categories simultaneously with each other — and for the small minority who aren't American citizens, the location of the company fails to be a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the person in the manner necessary to support a category for it. (For example, if I as a Canadian start a company here in Toronto, and then it gets bought out a year later by an American investor who moves the head office to New York City, then I've suddenly become a "founder of a company of the United States" without ever actually leaving Canada at all — so the company certainly becomes defined by its relocation, but that relocation doesn't magically turn into a defining characteristic of me.) So I still consider it a pointless duplication, and I'm not even remotely convinced by the counterargument. What say the rest of you, though? Bearcat (talk) 07:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per nom, a clear case of WP:OVERLAPCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support (assuming that any articles about non-US people forming a US company aren't miscategorized by the merge). This is overcategorization. DexDor(talk) 07:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge what? The category was completely emptied before the CfD was initiated. Ottawahitech (talk) 16:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me
 * @Ottawahitech. Merge whatever articles are in the category when CFD is closed. Fyi it wasn't empty when I added the above cmt. DexDor(talk) 05:58, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep and repopulate with all of the entries that Bearcat preemptively removed before he renamed/redirected this category to Category:American company founders without discussion. This is a categorization by location, not by nationality. The belief that the founding of a company in the United States by someone who is not an American citizen is not a defining characteristic of that person is a very idiosyncratic opinion (and could be perceived as U.S.-centric chauvinist one as well; see WP:SYSTEMICBIAS). This category is part of Category:Company founders by country ( not Category:Company founders by nationality ) and Category:Companies of the United States. To delete, redirect or rename it would violate the standard "by location" versus "by nationality" category breakdown system we have. Softlavender (talk) 07:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't have any "standard 'by location' versus 'by nationality' category breakdown system". We don't have any categories where "American X" and "X of the United States" coexist simultaneously with each other, containing 90 to 95 per cent the same topics anyway — we have topics subdivided by nationality ("American") or by country ("of the United States"), depending on which makes more natural sense in that particular topic area, but there's nowhere in Wikipedia's entire category system where those things both exist as siblings of each other for the same topic.
 * And just by the by, I'm Canadian. So the idea that I'm coming from a US-centric bias here? I have to bring "ROTFLMAO" back for that one. Bearcat (talk)
 * You are erroneously conflating company and person there, in my opinion. As I mentioned above, we have a Category:Company founders by country (or we did until you just now removed it from all subcats and redirected/renamed it without discussion) and Category:Company founders by nationality, distinguishing company location from nationality of founder. To remove one large and important subset of the former violates the system, or the system that existed until you summarily dismantled it without discussion. Softlavender (talk) 07:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Company founders by country" and "company founders by nationality" are not two separate topics. Considerably more than 90 per cent of the people involved end up having to be in both trees simultaneously with each other — violating WP:OVERLAPCAT — and for the very few who aren't doubling up in both, the location of the company is a defining characteristic of the company, and not of the individual person. So I'm not "conflating" anything, erroneously or otherwise. And again, we don't have any topic, anywhere in all of Wikipedia, where "X by country" and "X by nationality" both coexist as siblings of each other for the same "X". So this standard scheme you claim I'm violating simply does not exist.
 * And, for the record, not all changes to the category system require discussion first; spelling errors and duplicates, for example, can be speedied without having to come to CFD first. Completely empty categories can be deleted on sight by anybody with access to the deletion function. Categories that aren't consistent with the applicable naming conventions (e.g. if somebody uses "women" in a category tree where the established expectation is "female", or vice versa) can be renamed on sight without needing to be debated. And on and so forth. The correct process after you challenged it was to take it to CFD, which I did — but given that I considered the categories to be duplicates to which our speedy CFD/CFR/CFM criteria were applicable, there was no requirement for me to take it to CFD before I could act on my original judgement — the only requirement was that I take it here for review if somebody objected. Which I did. Bearcat (talk) 08:04, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Did you know I created this category tree? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me
 * Why would it who did or didn't create something have any relevance to the matter either way? The includability or deletability of anything in Wikipedia is a question of whether the content fits with Wikipedia's established consensus about whether the content is includable or deletable under our content policies. Except occasionally in some extreme vandalism circumstances, the identity of any given content's creator has no bearing either way on the question of whether it's keepable or not. Bearcat (talk) 21:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: I agree that this scenario would make you a "Canadian company founder". The additional information that your company is American belongs on the company page, not in the list of categories that describe you. Connor Behan (talk) 16:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support, for the compelling reason outlined by the nominator, that the location of the company is not a defining attribute of the person. Sionk (talk) 13:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support but merge both to new target -- The distinction between the nationality of a company (where it is incorporated) and what the founder's nationality was is too fine a distinction to be useful. Yes an Englishman may have emigrated and founded a company in America, but it is not useful to categorise him as an English company founder, when his achievement was in fact in America.  Thus Category:Founders of American companies etc. should be the target.  They may need purging of foreign nationals.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:20, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Will Pfizer still be an American company after it merges with Allergan / Actavis (based in Dublin and Parsippany-Troy Hills) which is now the property of   Teva Pharmaceuticals (based in Petah Tikva) after it was sold to it   in July 2015? Ottawahitech (talk) 23:25, 20 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me ... and  is Aditya Julka an Indian company founder (this is how he gets classified when I try to classify  him as a founder of companies of India)? Ottawahitech (talk) 23:34, 20 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me


 * Manual merge in order to exclude any expatriates who would not belong in the target categories. I do not consider that it would be useful to populate both hierarchies. Let us categorise company founders only by their own nationality and not also by the country of the company. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:52, 24 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Why are we wasting time discussing these virtual categories that have already been emptied out of process and redirected? How can editors make informed decisions when the evidence is gone? Why does the list of categories under discussion keep growing while  we "discuss"?


 * I tried to retrieve as much as I could from the devastation left behind, but I do not have access to any automated tools so it takes me exponentially longer to revert all the actions that took the nominator only minutes to accomplish. As it stands now I have only been able to revert a subset of the categories which were redirected by the nominator on Dec15, but those categories are mostly empty because the nominator emptied them also on Dec 15.


 * This "discussion" is not only a waste of my time (including the time it took me to build this category in the first place), but also the time of the nominator and the rest of the editors involved here. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me


 * Bearcat may yet prove to be in error and help to reverse the damage. Even if he does not, consensus may be reached just by considering the points of principle, although it is of course often useful to be able to look at examples. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:53, 24 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't see bearcat trying to reverse his error. Am I missing something? AND while this CfD is still open other editors  (In addition to bearcat nominations of categories I created) are jumping in with further nominations that will wipe the history of bearcats actions of December 15, 2015. See for example: Category talk:Businesspeople of companies in Canada, a page deleted by bearcat without discussion.  Ottawahitech (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me
 * agreed, Bearcat is evidently not going to help, and has expressed a personal view of CFD process which is not shared by anyone else as far as I know. If the general view is not sufficiently clearly documented, this will have to be addressed at WT:CFD. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There is not and has never been any consensus that redirection is considered equivalent to deletion, or that a redirect must always be taken to CFD first unless it fits the exact same criteria that would allow it to be speedy deleted — for instance, if already exists, and then somebody not cognizant of the naming convention creates  alongside it, there is no rule or convention that requires a full seven days of CFD debate before somebody can redirect the new category to the existing one and refile the articles accordingly. If any such consensus does exist that redirection is the same as deletion, and is therefore subject to the same rules about when it can be speedied versus when it has to go to a full XFD instead, then it certainly hasn't been documented anywhere (and thus represents an error on the community's part in failing to document it properly, and not an error on my part in failing to follow an undocumented rule.) If there's a new consensus established by which that should become the new rule going forward, then that's one thing — but it is not the consensus rule that pertains to redirects as of now, and accordingly I will not tolerate this situation being branded as any form of error on my part. Maybe this rule needs revision, maybe the consensus needs to change; I can accept that. But I absolutely, unconditionally will not brook any attempt to claim that I acted improperly under any existing rule pertaining to redirects. Bearcat (talk) 02:37, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is another category that was deleted with no discussion: Category:Chairmen of corporations by country. Ottawahitech (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me


 * On further reflection, I change my view to reverse merge. The case of founders is different from Chief executives, which I think should be categorised by the nationality of the person – see 1st discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2015 December 18. Being a "company founder" is not an occupation, and is better sub-categorised according to the country of the company rather than the person. IMHO it should be the country where the company was based when founded, and the category should not change in the event of a foreign takeover. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:53, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge in either direction, with a weak preference for Fayenatic london's alternative for a reverse merge to prioritize country of the company over nationality of the founder (which is a slight reinterpretation of my earlier merge vote). Marcocapelle (talk) 00:50, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

THE FOLLOWING IS TRANSCLUDED text from Category talk:Company founders by country. Ottawahitech (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me

--start transclusion--

--end transclusion--
 * The fact that somebody has worked on populating a category is not, in and of itself, a reason why that category would automatically get kept. The category system does not exist as a way to create lists of every single thing it might be possible to create a list of — it exists as a classification system to group topics on WP:DEFINING characteristics. We do not, for example, maintain categories of people by hair colour or eye colour, or by unencyclopedic hobbies, even though all of those would certainly be possible — we categorize people by characteristics that are defining of why they have an encyclopedia article, such as their occupation and nationality, and not on characteristics that constitute trivia. Nobody owes you a cookie for having worked hard on something, without regard to whether that something has encyclopedic value or not — people are allowed to look at a category, believe that it constitutes a duplication of another category that already exists, and act accordingly without asking for your personal permission first. Bearcat (talk) 23:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless a change to a category is non-controversial – e.g. prompted by vandalism or duplication – please do not amend or remove the category from pages before a decision has been made. (from WP:CFD). Marcocapelle (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You're entirely misunderstanding the order of events here if you think I ever did anything that violated CFD rules in any way. The categories in question had already been redirected and depopulated under the speedy criteria by which a duplicate category can be immediately redirected and depopulated, and thus in full accordance with "prompted by duplication". Only after all of that was done did anybody express an objection to my reading of the situation — at no point in this entire matter has a single article been removed from any of the categories in question after they were restored and taken to CFD for wider discussion, so at no point whatsoever has any CFD rule been violated at all. Bearcat (talk) 23:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * While admitting that I had meanwhile forgotten about the sequence of events, I wonder if there are any speedy criteria like that. Don't get me wrong, I do support the nomination, but I'd rather also keep some consensus about procedures. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Bearcat: I am not aware of speedy criteria for duplicate categories permitting immediate merging. WP:CSD includes A10 for duplicate articles, but no equivalent under General or Categories, unless there is consent from the category's creator. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:42, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * CSD criteria have no bearing on what can or cannot be merged or redirected to another article or category; redirecting is not deletion and is not subject to deletion-process rules, so what is or isn't a speedy deletion criterion has no bearing on a redirect. There is no rule that one must always initiate a full AFD/CFD discussion before a duplicated-topic article or category can be redirected to the existing topic or category. The only hard and fast rule that applies to redirection of duplicated content is to take it to CFD for wider discussion if you're challenged on it after the fact, which I did — but there's no rule by which my original action was improper. Bearcat (talk) 21:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem to have interpreted this category in good faith as duplicated, so I can see how you might conclude the above from the lead section of WP:CFD: Unless a change to a category is non-controversial – e.g. prompted by vandalism or duplication – please do not amend or remove the category from pages before a decision has been made.
 * However, you recognised in your nomination that you later realised it was controversial after all, as others see this case as a strong degree of overlap rather than a duplication.
 * I'm spelling this out here in case other editors read this discussion and take it as a precedent for controversial merges without following the WP:CFD process. Where effort has been put into building a debatable category or hierarchy by an editor who is still active, it would be good practice to ask that category's creator whether they agree that there is duplication. Even if this leads to a disagreement which then comes to CFD as a merger proposal, it is better to have a discussion of full categories than empty ones. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:06, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "Controversy" about a redirection (or a speedy deletion, for that matter) is not something that can always necessarily be foreseen or predicted in advance of an objection actually getting raised after the fact — sometimes it is, sure, but it isn't always the case. Wikipedia does not expect its editors or administrators to be clairvoyant or psychic, so my failure to have had advance foreknowledge that an objection was going to be raised after the fact still does not represent any negligence on my part. When an objection was raised, I acted correctly in taking it to CFD for wider discussion — but it was not my responsibility to have already known that such an objection was in the offing before I acted, because this is not a situation in which the potential controversy was plainly obvious right off the bat. Bearcat (talk) 23:16, 1 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep the new category tree and rename it to the scheme Category:Founders of Canadian companies, Category:Founders of French companies not just for simplicity and brevity, but also because it's often more about the gravitational center (by history, factories etc.) of a company than about the jurisdiction a company is currently registered in, which is better captured this way. Can peacefully coexist with the long-standing category tree and may even be combined (given it contains enough member articles) to Category:Greek founders of American companies, Category:Turkish founders of German companies etc. --PanchoS (talk) 21:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Keep the new category tree ... for simplicity ..." - ?! "it's often more about the gravitational center ... of a company" - this isn't categorization of companies; it's categorization of people. DexDor(talk) 05:58, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Didn't state or presuppose the opposite. --PanchoS (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Rename/Merge to Category:Founders of companies in the United States etc. I think making it "in" instead of "in" will avoid any dispute. For example if two British Army officers started a company in Bombay (now Mumbai) in 1902, what category would it belong in? The most direct formulation is to categorize people by where they founded the company. If they founded companies in Russia, then in the United States, then in Mexico, then in Argentina, then in Australia, they can be in those five categories. If on the other hand they were born in Germany, came to the United States, and founded a company 20 years later, they should not be categorized as a German company founder. We do not need the two trees, they create lots and lots and lots of overlap, which leads either to under-built categories or category clutter, the later of which we already have way too much of.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:26, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I think we should also limit this to people who were involved in running the company, and exclude those who only put up money to start a company but were not involved in its operations. I am not even sure this is a worthwhile way to categorize people at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:28, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Someone continues to empty these categories while this CfD is still not decided. 73.35.169.55 (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)please ping me


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Category:Wikipedia Selected picture files

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 22:09, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedia selected picture files


 * Nominator's rationale: Selected by whom? We have categories such as Category:Wikipedia Picture of the day and Category:Wikipedia featured pictures which are part of established processes, but I've been unable to find any Wikipedia process that refers to this category. For info: This CFD is part of an attempt to tidy up the category structure below Category:Wikipedia images. DexDor(talk) 07:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete, and empty it by editing Template:SP Massachusetts. Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:SP_Massachusetts matches the contents of this category. The template does not seem to be part of a series. User:MGA73 coded this category in the template stating, "Adding category to avoid that files end up in Special:UncategorizedFiles"; well, these files are now in other categories via other templates, so that should not happen again. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:02, 25 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Subcats of Category:Populated places established in the 1370s

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Propose upmerging
 * Category:Populated places established in 1370 to Category:Populated places established in the 1370s and Category:1370 establishments
 * Category:Populated places established in 1373 to Category:Populated places established in the 1370s and Category:1373 establishments
 * Category:Populated places established in 1375 to Category:Populated places established in the 1370s and Category:1375 establishments
 * Rationale: We don't generally have such categories for years before 1500, and these categories aren't necessary to keep their parents at a reasonable size. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Also, from Category:Populated places by year of establishment, "Where reliable foundation dates exist, articles should be categorised by year for 1500 and later, by decade from the 1300s to the 1490s, by century from the 10th century BC to the 13th century and by millennium for the 2nd millennium BC and earlier. Prior to 1500, where greater dating accuracy exists, articles should also be placed in the appropriate Establishments by year category." Greenshed (talk) 13:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support -- very specific annual categories at dates in the remote past are rarely useful. Furthermore, I would question the veracity of the content: I checked the basis for several of them.  Some failed to mention the date.  Others gave it as "first mentioned in", which is not necessarily a date of foundation.  One said it was first mentioned in an imperial land register at a certain date.  Unless the date relates to an imperial grant for the land to be settled, it could be significantly older.   14:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)


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Category:Executed generals and admirals

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename to . עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:38, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Executed generals and admirals to Category:Executed marshals, generals and admirals
 * Nominator's rationale: This category contains marshals as well as generals and admirals. Greenshed (talk) 05:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose - better to keep the category name simple and use text to explain its scope than to attempt to have a comprehensive list in the category name. Possibly rename to something like Category:Executed senior military commanders . DexDor(talk) 07:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC) DexDor(talk) 06:57, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. What about Category:Executed military leaders as Category:Military leaders is the top level category for admirals, air marshals, generals and marshals? Greenshed (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's better. DexDor(talk) 06:57, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Executed military leaders  "Leadership" and "military" are the only crucial aspects, not rank or branch of service. If some lucky sergeant wins out in a short-lived coup, they belong here. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Presumably to Category:Executed military leaders which gets my support as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. We're looking at renaming a category not changing its purpose.  As per its hat note, the Category:Military leaders is intended for those who exerted strategic level military leadership, including those without formal rank.  Of course a sergeant who led a military coup could be doing this but his strategic or national-level leadership would be far in excess of his rank.  Were the "lucky" sergeant then to be executed, his biographical article might get included in the category under discussion.  We could of course create Category:Executed military officers, Category:Executed non-commissioned personnel, etc as subcategories of Category:Executed military personnel if required but that is not what we're here to discuss. Greenshed (talk) 00:24, 17 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete do we really need to split executed military folks by rank? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. Do you mean up-merge to Category:Executed military personnel?  (incidentially I was not arguing for the creation of Category:Executed military officers, Category:Executed non-commissioned personnel, etc - just pointing out that it was a possible option). Greenshed (talk) 01:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Executed military leaders. Neutralitytalk 07:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Rename/repurpose to ex mil leaders a good idea. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:Executed military personnel. That category is not large enough to justify such a split.04:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Executed generals and admirals has 92 articles and a subcategory while Executed military personnel has even more. How many articles would be needed to justify having a separate category? Greenshed (talk) 05:19, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pro-Assadists
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete; merge contents to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting pro-assadists


 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant, non-definitive. Upmerge into parent category:Pro-government factions of the Syrian Civil War - üser:Altenmann >t 03:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support merge per WP:OVERLAPCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:49, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete/upmerge per nom - redundant. Neutralitytalk 16:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Objection to merge: these are individuals, and therefore cannot be categorised as "factions". I suggest a rename instead, e.g. category:Pro-government people of the Syrian Civil War. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:54, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You have a point against upmerging, but if these people are not from any factions, just don't upmerge. The categorystill does not fit our rules about persons. - üser:Altenmann >t 21:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It's correct that the merge target doesn't fit individual people. A better merge target would then be its other parent Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. This more neutrally-phrased category also fits better with the fact that these people are not necessarily pro-Assad or pro-government – rather, they are fighting on the side of Syrian government because they happen to have common interests with the Assad government (common enemies in particular). 00:35, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree with the last anonymous comment. Though a case could be made that Assad's collaborators are slightly more homogenous in their aims than his various antagonists, "pro-Assadists" clearly is no usable category scope. In this particular case I'm abstaining for now, as a good proposal might still pop up during discussion, but would otherwise propose deletion or upmerge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. PanchoS (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2015 (UTC)


 * OK, merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War instead. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:15, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. In a Civil War such as is going on in Syria, with lots of factions fighting lots of other factions, some people are bound to change sides, so we are best off not subdividing by side. Considering we only have 3 articles in this category there is no reason to keep it at this time.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:32, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War as per Johnpacklambert. LavaBaron (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-Assadists
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete; merge contents to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:21, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting anti-assadists


 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant, non-definitive. Upmerge into parent category:Anti-government factions of the Syrian Civil War . - üser:Altenmann >t 03:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support merge per WP:OVERLAPCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:49, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete/upmerge per nom - redundant. Neutralitytalk 16:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Objection to merge as above; consider renaming instead. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:55, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not redundant but misleading and impossible to handle. Almost everybody who is or might be called an "anti-Assadist" primarily follows their own agenda which may be incompatible with Ba'ath rule, but goes beyond that. The common grounds are rather limited and may be of tactical rather than strategic nature. And while the common interests and values may be a basis for present or future cooperation, they are not sufficiently captured by a pro- vs. anti-Assad dichotomy. --PanchoS (talk) 12:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War instead, as above. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:16, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War. That category even if this and the pro-Assadists categories are merged in will still have only about 120 or less articles, which is not enough to justify a split unless some other reason compels one. The nature of the Syrian Civil War is that of a complex war with multiple factions and high probability that some people will change sides.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:34, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL, "120 not too much" is a funny reason, and your cited risk of people changing sides is neither a problem for our categorization nor informed by the complexity of a conflict that doesn't follow such a simplistic dichotomy. But in the end, what we can agree on is that these two categories should be upmerged. --PanchoS (talk) 23:59, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge to Category:People of the Syrian Civil War as per Johnpacklambert. LavaBaron (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.