Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 December 2



Category:Conley family

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) sst✈(discuss) 15:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting conley family


 * Nominator's rationale: If the family isn't notable enough for an article (see Articles for deletion/Conley family), it's not notable enough for a category. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:44, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Nominator's argument is unanswerable. JohnCD (talk) 21:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - per above. Neutralitytalk 22:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete -- The articles do not make clear that they are all closely related. The relationship of certain sportsmen to certain academics hardly seems notable.  I would not object to them being listified as Conley (surname), a dab page.  This is commonly the best solution for people sharing a surname.  The relationships between them can be briefly elucidated there, which they cannot be in a category.  I did not see the AFD and might have suggested it then.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You could already create the (surname) page, if you want - this would be significantly different than the article which was deleted (i.e no G4 deletion). If some user objects, they could always nominate it for deletion, although I doubt that the nomination would be successful. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:43, 6 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete There is no evidence that there is even a family connection among all the people in this category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Highly Anticipated albums

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (a little early per WP:SNOW). Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting highly anticipated albums


 * Nominator's rationale: At first I though this was for a record label called "Highly Anticipated", but it's just for upcoming albums, with no clear inclusion criteria for exactly what is "Highly Anticipated".  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 08:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom - a no-brainer; my million-seller is highly anticipated by me. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 07:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete (obviously subjective). Neutralitytalk 22:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom - Kollision (talk) 04:59, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OC; the amount of anticipation an upcoming album is or isn't generating is not a quantifiable or WP:DEFINING characteristic. My best guess is that the real inclusion criterion here was that these are the upcoming albums the category creator is personally most excited about. Bearcat (talk) 19:55, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Very subjective, and hard to see having something in the category when it was released 50 years ago, and having this as a constantly changing category makes no sense either.John Pack Lambert (talk) 08:47, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete -- It depends on your POV. that is no basis for a category.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per previous comments. Chase (talk &#124; contributions) 00:55, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - I doubt anyone could come up with an objective, measurable criterion for this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:45, 6 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lebanese people of Maronite Christian descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete both categories as empty. If the categories need to be recreated, the consensus seems to be that the second one (Category:Lebanese people of Maronite descent) seems to be more appropriate.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Lebanese people of Maronite Christian descent to Category:Lebanese people of Maronite descent
 * Nominator's rationale: Brevity, accuracy.

Removing redundant words: Maronites are not an ethnic group, Maronitism is a Catholic denomination. Elias  Z   07:49, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, Maronites are an ethno-religious group as well as a Catholic denomination. The article on Maronites describes the group as being ethno-religious. There are Maronites who view themselves as simply members of a Catholic denomination, but there are also Maronites who view themselves as being part of a non-Arab ethnic group. However, I do think that the category for "Lebanese people of Maronite Christian descent" should be merged into the category for "Lebanese people of Maronite descent". I don't see how the word "Christian" needs to be in a descent category for Maronites since a descent category is for ethnicity and not religion. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The article cites a travel book for this claim. I am a Maronite but unlike the person who edit this article im not a zealot. Zealots try to set Christians apart from other people of Arabic descent. There is no Maronite ethnicity and Pierre Zalloua's research on the Phoenician haplogroup disproves this claim as it shows that Lebanese of all denominations are heterogeneous. Elias   Z   06:35, 3 December 2015 (UTC) PS: Before someone here suggests I edit out the parts I think are inaccurate from the Maronites article, I tell you that I don't have the time for that as it needs rewriting. The sources cited are so distorted and passages written over it's impossible to weave out direct citations from fabrication. Oh and I wouldn't hold true ANYTHING written in here Bohemian Baltimore.-  Elias   Z   06:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I made the renaming because I believe that "Lebanese people of Maronite descent" creates the impression that the Maronites are an ethnic group separated from the Lebanese people like in the case "Lebanese people of Armenian descent". (The Armenians were forced to immigrate to present-day Lebanon after the 1915 Armenian genocide in contrast to the Lebanese people native to the Lebanese territory, ex. Maronites, Shiites, and Sunnites) And to quote your opinion, which I fully support: "There is no Maronite ethnicity and Pierre Zalloua's research on the Phoenician haplogroup disproves this claim as it shows that Lebanese of all denominations are heterogeneous." That is why I believed and still believe that "Lebanese people of Maronite Christian descent" should be used instead to emphasize that the Maronites are Christian religious group within the Lebanese people. Also, I wanted to make categories "Lebanese people of Shiite Muslim descent", "Lebanese people of Sunnite Muslim descent", and so on to make the point that is supported by "Pierre Zalloua's research on the Phoenician haplogroup disproves this claim as it shows that Lebanese of all denominations are heterogeneous." MyNewAccountName (talk) 20:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I see, but after reading Marcocapelle's comments I don't think that neither of the titles is straightforward enough. In fact i believe they are both misleading since the category in question is supposed to group converts from one confession to another (unspecified confession) and it should specifically state so. IMO the locution " .... of ... descent..." makes allusion to ethnicity. If it were up to me i'd use "Converts from Maronitism" or simply be added to the "Religious Converts" category if were are to be less specific as pointed out by Marcocapelle. - Elias   Z   06:43, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If the article needs better references, then better references can be added. You yourself just said that there are Maronites in Lebanon who view themselves as non-Arab, meaning that at least some Maronites do view themselves as a separate ethnic/cultural group. Whether you personally identify as Arab or not is irrelevant. The fact that Phoenicianist claims have been questioned by scientists is also irrelevant when it comes to the question of whether Maronites are an ethnic group or not. Ethnicity is not solely determined by genetics. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * But see Category:People of Huguenot descent‎ and its children, when - as our article Huguenot states - it is a religion category, not an ethnic one. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I would argue that, if we're categorizing by descent, there's an ethnic/French component. I'm of Celtic descent, not Druid descent for instance. (I might be making a circular argument though.)RevelationDirect (talk) 02:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * We have French categories galore, this is another thing entirely. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 03:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * impossible to evaluate since the first category has been emptied Hmains (talk) 02:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it's not impossible I emptied it into the second category. - Elias   Z   06:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete both descent categories per WP:OVERLAPCAT, the articles contain people who converted from Catholicism to another religion and we already have a Category:Religious converts tree for this. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:23, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, they did not convert to another religion, please do some research for all gods sake before suggesting something like that. The Maronite church was an isolated, independent Syriac church that joined catholic communion. PALLLLLEAAAASe if you dont know anything about the issue PLEASE either do some basic research or don't weigh in at all. Elias   Z   07:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Fairuz converted, Diana Haddad converted, Joumana Haddad converted (to atheism), Wadih el-Hage converted, Ahmad Faris Shidyaq converted. How many other articles do we have in this category? Marcocapelle (talk) 18:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanation, I misunderstood you at first. I support your suggestion to delete both. - Elias   Z   06:27, 4 December 2015 (UTC)


 * As I said above, these people didn't simply convert from Catholicism to another religion. Per the article, Maronites are an ethnoreligious group and so they are a Catholic group as well as an ethnic group. Likewise, Jews are not simply a religious group but an ethnic/cultural group as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not any different for Judaism, converts from Judaism would likewise be put in Category:Converts from Judaism. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There are numerous categories for Category:People of Jewish descent, because Jews (like Maronites) are an ethnic group in addition to a religious group. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 18:27, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Bohemian Baltimore, Maronites (just like the Lebanese Greek Orthodox, Melkite Greeks, Syriac orthodox and Lebanese protestants) share the same language/dialect, physical features, common ancestors, socio-cultural values, historical experience and cuisine with the Lebanese Sunnis, Shias, Druze and Jews. There is a high rate of cross confessional marriage and mass conversions throughout history. How can you still insist that they form a separate ethnic group? It's exactly like saying the German catholics form a separate ethic group from the rest of the Germans. It's our duty to fix wikipedia and question everything written here; especially when sources are so evidently cited out of context and when obscure websites are cited. - Elias   Z   13:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not insisting anything, it is some Maronites themselves who insist that they are a non-Arab ethnic group and emphasize non-Arab cultural traditions (Aramaic liturgical language, etc.). Others, like you, disagree. I don't care who is correct. But if there are Maronites who define being Maronite as an ethnic/cultural group, well, that has to be acknowledged. Why should we solely accept your view that Maronites are only a religious group as the one and only definition of being Maronite? There's clearly multiple forms or kinds of Maronite identity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 18:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge to second. Descent needs to be based on ethnic origin, not religious origin. It can be ethno-religious, but not purely religious. We would not have Category:American people of Latter-day Saint descent even though to be fair there are people who vaguely identify as such, it is just not defining enough to work and has no easy definition.John Pack Lambert (talk) 08:50, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge all to Category:Maronite Christians of Lebanon. Descent categories in the Middle East continually give problems.  Due to the Ottoman millett system, what had been religious denominations were transformed into quasi-ethnicities, because of the practice of marriage within denominations.  Attempts to apply analogies from elsewhere do not work.  The religious identification is much stronger than between Catholics and Protestants in Europe.  I think the Maronites are largely a Lebanese group, affiliated to the Catholic Church.  Descent categories are usually used for expatriates, and are not appropriate to people in their own country.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Then at least it should be Category:Maronites of Lebanon - there is also an atheist convert and a Muslim convert in this category. However, the question with these converts (and also with the within-Christianity converts) is if they still consider themselves to be Maronites, or do they consider themselves to be "just" Lebanese? This is likely to become a matter of OR. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Maronites are largely seen as an ethnic group, consisting of pre-Arab invasion residents of Antioch region, who later dispersed in what is now Lebanon. Elias is presenting a valid but POV view that cancels all nations in the Middle East in favor of new identities - a process initiated in early 20th century by a number of Christian politicians, who tried to embrace new identities (Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, etc.) and thus facilitate the redemption of the ethnic minorities with Christian faith - namely Assyrians, Arameans, Maronites, Copts, etc., who had quite suffered under the oppressive Islamic Turkish and Arab rule.GreyShark (dibra) 20:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Restructure, moving the five articles to new Category:Former Maronite Christians (they are all adequately categorised as Lebanese), and moving the sub-cat up into the three parent categories. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a very good alternative that does justice to the fact that all five articles are biographies of former Maronites. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty to implement this suggestion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge all to Category:Maronite Christians of Lebanon. Per Peterkingiron. George Al-Shami (talk) 05:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment (voted above). The first thing needs to be get all those in Lebanon into an appropriate category, be it Category:Maronite Christians of Lebanon or Category:Maronites of Lebanon.  Unlike some other Middle Eastern quasi-ethnicities, they are all Christian; indeed all Catholic, except perhaps a few converts to other faiths.  This may then need to be purged of those who do not quite fit: expatriates in other countries (into a descent category), converts to Catholicism, etc.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * All articles in this category concern converts. Purging the category for converts results in deleting the category - which is exactly what I've proposed earlier. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to avoid misunderstandings, the discussion is now about the target category, since the merge from the nominated category to the target category has already been implemented. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.