Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 August 15



Category:Christians of Jewish descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Category:Christians of Jewish descent
 * Nominatiors rationale This is not a standard descent category and it does not cover a group that is any way an ethnic group. We generally do not categorize people of x religion as having y religion ancestry. While Jewishness is an ethno-religious identity, its exact nature is complex. It was not until sometime in the 19th-century that people outside of Iberia came to see Jewishness as something someone could have in an ethnic sense while not retaining in a religious sense. On the other hand in the United States the current trend is those who are not religiously in some way Jewish are either coming to identify less and less as Jews (for example in the case of Bernie Sanders) or their Jewish identity is actively contested by many other Jews (as in the case of Jews for Jesus). Even though this article does accept that the people involved are in some way ethnically Jewish, it considers these converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as at best marginally Jewish. However these people are adequately covered by categories like Category:Converts to Christianity from Judaism and their sub-cats. This category here takes the concept a step further, and asserts people who were raised from the day of their birth either as Christians, or at least in no way outwardly and clearly Jewish, including some who did not known they even had Jewish ancestry until they were middle-aged, and others who may have known it a lot earlier but were also prolific writers who never identified themselves as having Jewish ancestry in their writings, are in some way defined by this. The problem is that for too many people in this category the presence of some Jewish ancestry, in the case of at times one great-great grandparent, who converted to Christianity over 100 years before the subject of the article was born, is just not at all defining. There might be a much tighter category that could be created along these lines, that clearly limits the content to people for whom these dual identities are defining, but the current category is too much a catchall that groups unlike people often on a trait that we have no clear evidence they themselves even though of as applying to them.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:14, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Another issue is that contrary to some images, conversion to Judaism actually does occur. For example my grandmother converted to Judaism in her early teens, was confirmed in a conservative Jewish synagogue, and then converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at age 17. Would I then qualify for this category, even though my grandmother's father was almost certainly not Jewish, and her mother was at the time of her birth a Jehovah's Witness from a family that had converted to that religion from Catholicism? The rate of conversion to Judaism in the US if anything has probably accelerated since the early 1940s when my grandmother converted to it. It is true her step-father at the time was Jewish, so should we instead ignore the issue of whether converts count, and instead say that we count through adoptive lines, since I can produce a document that says that that Jewish man was my grandmother's father. This actually opens up a wider question. Are ancestry categories meant to measure biological descent, or does adoption trump that, or do we have to study the perceptions of the people involved. Does the child I know of two Utah raised, Anglo-European Mormons who they adopted at birth from a mother who had been adopted to the US by an Idaho Mormon family from Romania and a father who was half-euro-American and half-African-American, count as of Romanian descent, does she count as African-American, or just of African-descent, or neither, and how much of these decisions are ones that she gets to make in 15 years when she is 18, how much is it based on how her parents present her own ancestry to her, and how much is it how various interests in the larger culture frame to niche that is filled by people of various descents. This is another problem with this category, it is trans-national, and we avoid most trans-national descent categories and probably should avoid even more. There are clear trans-national ethnic groups, such as the Romani, although even the lines of who is and who is not considered Romani are in part rooted in local policies in Germany, Russia, the UnitedKingdom, France, Slovakia and many other countries. One reason for so little recognition of Romani in the US is that it has never been formally placed on the race list of the census, and so no one has any interest in identifying them. Jewishness itself is a trans-national ethno-religious identity. However the notion that the intersection of acceptance of a Christian religion, and having Jewish ancestry is a defining characteristic with some sort of defining meaning to the individuals involved seems a bit much. In the United States there is a growing group of people who have some Jewish ancestry and are vaguely Jewish in some way, in the same way other people are vaguely Irish. Many of these people are athiests or secularists, but some are very open and devout adherents to specific Christian religions, such as Jason Chaffetz. However the lines of ethnic and religious affinity are drawn differently in other areas. In countries like Jamaica there are many people who have some Jewish ancestry, but it is even less defining to them than in the US. If we limit ancestry categories to specific nationalities, we can control for the particular issues within that country of definingness. However this broad, trans-national category avoids those issues entirely.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete this is a useless category, like most of the descent ones, but particularly worse because "Jewish descent" is not differentiable in any meaningful way. If a child of a Jewish convert is a Christian he or she is in this category, but presumably their near relatives wouldn't be. If this defines one from the other, pray tell what assumptions are we making about merely having someone who was/is Jewish in the family tree. Now remove that three, six, fifty generations: if this defines people, presumably someone ought to show how they differ from their peers? No one can, thus, a meaningless "someone in my family tree changed religions so I'm special" category. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:04, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. In addition to all of the reasons already specified, a person's ethnic ancestry is very commonly unverifiable in reliable sources beyond one or two generations at most. There probably are some people for whom inclusion in this category could be sourced properly, but there are many more for whom it can't even if it's true — and unless a person is personally a convert from one religion to the other, the ethnic recipe of their DNA is not necessarily WP:DEFINING. Bearcat (talk) 23:58, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete – per nom, perhaps the longest ever at cfd. Oculi (talk) 03:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete -- I do not think that descent from a convert is a notable characteristic, in contrast with having converted oneself. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:24, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - Some names in that category do or did have Jewish descent but were brought up by their Jewish parents' non-Jewish spouses. What if a child of a Jew and a Christian was raised a Christian and neither parent converted? Does he/she have a sense of Jewishness? SignOfTheDoubleCross (talk) 07:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Weather radio stations in Canada

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:38, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting weather radio stations in canada


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete. Another case of a leftover category, which was created to hold content that was acceptable at a much earlier time in Wikipedia history but now runs afoul of the tighter WP:NMEDIA rules that exist today. Under the current rules, all of the stations formerly contained in here have now been redirected to the main article on Weatheradio Canada itself, as they exist only as rebroadcasters of the parent service and not as standalone originators of their own local programming. With the result that instead of a category for a couple of dozen radio transmitters, this is now just a WP:SMALLCAT serving only to contain the network's main overview article. That article is already in all of the appropriate categories, so no upmerging is necessary. Bearcat (talk) 15:16, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Late Late Show (U.S. TV series) hosts
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 August 23%23Category:The Late Late Show (U.S. TV series) hosts

Category:The View co-hosts

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting the view co-hosts


 * Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:PERFCAT. Rob Sinden (talk) 14:59, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:PERFCAT. kennethaw88 • talk 02:39, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dancing on Ice participants

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting dancing on ice participants


 * Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:PERFCAT. Rob Sinden (talk) 09:59, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete certainly fails PERFCAT. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:31, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per PERFCAT. Another case where a list (i.e. what already exists in Dancing on Ice) serves better than a category. Note that post-deletion, the page List of Dancing on Ice professional skaters should be placed in the parent categories. anemone  projectors  12:00, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:PERFCAT. kennethaw88 • talk 02:39, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians whose user pages are decorated by Joshua Jonathan

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedians whose user pages are decorated by joshua jonathan


 * Nominator's rationale: Is there a reason for this category? The only member of the category is just a user template. --  numbermaniac  ( talk ) 05:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete -- It looks like one WP editor has decided to create an award for other WPians, though I am glad to say he has made no awards, since it would clearly be a NN award. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Romanian people in video games

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: procedural close. Category appears to have been deleted already. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:45, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fictional romanian people in video games


 * Nominator's rationale: Agent 47 is a clone, created in a lab. Not sure if he has the Romanian nationality, but certainly not part of the Romanian people. Castlevania's Dracula is from Transylvania, which became part of Romania in 1918 (see Union of Transylvania with Romania), so cannot be considered Romanian. The WP:VG/RS custom Google search engine shows a total of three sources that Maximoff is a Romanian. Even if he is, apparently not a well-established part of his fictional history. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 04:42, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fide template with no ID set

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: procedural close. Category appears to have been deleted already. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fide template with no id set


 * Nominator's rationale: This category was created by a questionable user, does not make sense, and has a typo in the title. The only page (Chowdhury Hasnath Alahi) in this category is a page created by that user.  The page itself has been speedy deleted several times and is in the process of being speedy deleted again. Gestrid (talk) 02:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.