Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 November 29



Category:French Female tennis players

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy merge C2C. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting french female tennis players


 * Nominator's rationale: Category already exists as "French female tennis players" Wolbo (talk) 21:56, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge to Category:French female tennis players. Oculi (talk) 00:47, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Re-cat the one entry to the correct title and then tag this as being empty.  Lugnuts  Precious bodily fluids 08:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge -- An erroneous creation, due to miscapitalisation. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Snooker venues

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Keep. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting snooker venues


 * Nominator's rationale: This was argued to no consensus some years back, and while it has a lot of text at the top identifying suitable members, the problem now, as it was before, is that these are as far as I can tell all general-purpose exhibition halls in which I presume some sort of snooker competition was held. It is a perfect example of WP:OCVENUE. Seyasirt (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep This was actually argued to a snow keep some years back at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_25. However, this result wasn't good enough for some editors so they they re-ran the debate a few months later at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_August_11, this time resulting in no consensus. So we've had this discussion twice already and on both occasions there was no consensus to delete it. I appreciate consensus can change, but sometimes consensus doesn't have to change, and I see no reason why the arguments for deleting will be different this time. The nominating rationale that "these are as far as I can tell all general-purpose exhibition halls in which I presume some sort of snooker competition was held" is actually the exact same argument put forward last time around, and was shown to be invalid. So let's recap what this category includes, or rather is intended to include:
 * Purpose-built snooker venues (or at least venues which came to be solely used for snooker) such as South West Snooker Academy, Thurston's Hall and Burroughes Hall.
 * Venues that host regular notable snooker events. This would include venues such as the Crucible Theatre which has hosted the World Championship annually since 1977, the Wembley Conference Centre which became synonymous with the Masters event between 1975 and 2006 (when it was finally demolished) and the English Institute of Sport, Sheffield, which is regularly used as a snooker venue for hosting the smaller PTC events and the qualifiers for some of the international events, including the world championship.
 * Both of these types of use are consistent with WP:OCVENUE. First off, the guideline does not apply to purpose-built or dedicated facilities, and in the case of the second it actually makes an exception for venues that are regularly used in a specific and notable way for some of the year. The most prominent example of this would be the Crucible Theatre because the snooker world championship is the only world class event it regularly hosts. The most ridiculous argument put forward in the last discussion was that "snooker can be played anywhere". This is true to a degree, but darts are also played in every pub up and down the country, and basketball is played at every leisure centre and school up and down the country as well, but we don't argue that Category:Darts venues and Category:Basketball venues should be deleted. The intended use for this category follows the exact same format as those two categories i.e. to house dedicated venues and venues that host regular, notable—and by this we generally mean the professional international tour—snooker events. Whoever closes this discussion should also take the time to read through the very comprehensive argument offered by at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_August_11, which covers all the main points and defuncts the nomination. Betty Logan (talk) 20:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per the above. I would add that the the idea behind this, that something like the Crucible Theatre shouldn't be categorized as as snooker venue because it has been used for other things, belies an ignorance of the sport itself.  The World Snooker Championship is itself called "the Crucible" because the tie between the venue and the event is so tight they have become synonymous to snooker players and fans.  "If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it."  There's nothing broken here.  I'm not sure what it is about cue sports that drives non-participants/non-fans to keep trying to delete categories and templates relating to it, but that needs to be given a permanent rest.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep  but purge any for which snooker is not defining. WP:OCVENUE did not apply in 2013 and still doesn't apply. (And tempting SMcCandlish into a lengthy refutation should be a blockable offence.) Oculi (talk) 00:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * comment SMcCandlish can rein in his own posting, thankyouverymuch. So here's the question: what's going to happen when this gets closed and I start purging? I've looked at the darts category, and it has the same problem: the entries all appear to be general-purpose venues. The basketball case is not parallel since every entry was built specifically to host basketball, albeit with other sports as well. If I purge it down, and there's not enough left, the usual defenders are going to accuse me of gaming things. People are not going to follow the guideline, because they already are not following the guideline, even assuming that it is acceptable. Seyasirt (talk) 04:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep As noted above, venues like Thurston's Hall and Burroughes Hall were dedicated billiards/snooker venues and surely can be regarded as snooker venues. Trim the list if required. Nigej (talk)
 * Either Delete or heavily purge to leave nothing but venues that host nothing else. We do not normally allow venues to be categorised by the performances they host, except (as football stadia) that is their main function.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support, by far the most of the articles in this category are multi-purpose venues, hence purging will lead to a SMALLCAT issue. The very few 'real' snooker venues may be upmerged to Category:Snooker business. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Welders

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:50, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting welders


 * Nominator's rationale: This was deleted before because the members were not notable as welders per se, and the membership of the recreated category has the same problem. One or two are famous as inventors of welding techniques, and the rest are mostly notable in labor history, not because they were welders. Seyasirt (talk) 15:58, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment That last discussion said that the category consisted of sports figures and politicians who were only incidentally welders perhaps in their youth. That is not the case with the current group: they are known for welding (women's activists who broke into the profession, labor activists, and inventors) in a way that seems defining to me. The category is certainly vulnerable to having the same articles added it did before. RevelationDirect (talk) 09:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Things are better than before, but I count two people whose fame is specifically derived from welding. Everyone else is some kind of labor activist or pioneer who happened to be a welder. Seyasirt (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I would see people unionizing welders or breaking barriers to get into welding defined by welding. (An Olympic athlete that went into welding or a politician who used to weld would be non-defining for me.) I can see your viewpoint though. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:47, 17 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per comments of RevelationDirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: For precedents, see links at Category talk:Electricians. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:50, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Screenshots of games

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy delete (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting screenshots of games


 * Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure as to what this category was created for, but surely there are more categories better suited for gaming screenshots than this Nordic   Nightfury  15:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This category was automatically added in the page so I just created it. ThanksSeniorStar (talk) 01:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: This category is appearing if an editor accidentally leaves an empty first parameter in Non-free video game screenshot, by typing two bars instead of one. I have requested a change at Requested templates. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:17, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have updated Non-free video game screenshot to place files into the correct category when the first unnamed parameter is blank. —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 17:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as this category is now rightly empty; the contents have been added to Category:Screenshots of video games, so this could be recorded as a merge. thank you for your timely help. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Chinese coming-of-age television series

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:42, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Chinese coming-of-age television series to Category:Chinese drama television series
 * Propose merging Category:Chinese slice-of-life television series to Category:Chinese drama television series
 * Nominator's rationale: "Coming-of-age" and "slice-of-life" are not genres of television series, but merely subjective phrases that can be used to describe a television show's style. Besides the creator's similar new creations for South Korea which have also been CFDed already, we have no other "coming-of-age television series" or "slice-of-life television series" categories for any other country, and neither South Korea nor China gets to make up its own unique genre categories outside the standard genre categorization system. Also worth noting, both of these categories are filed solely as subcategories of the other one, forming a recursive loop with no outside parentage. Bearcat (talk) 05:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - we have Category:Coming-of-age films and it's a valid topic in fiction. It's true that it shouldn't be restricted to 1 or 2 countries. Jim Michael (talk) 19:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge & Delete per nom. "Coming-of-age films" is a subjective category too, similar to "films about" type categories; how much about coming-of-age (what age? or what denotes one is "coming of" it?) must a film be, and what reliable sources tell us that it's at least that much? Purely subjective as evidenced by the fact that only 30-odd films have been so categorized in the 11+ years this supposed defining category has been around. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There are well over 100 films in that cat, including its subcats. Jim Michael (talk) 23:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: Somewhat contrary to the nominator's statements, we also have Category:Slice of life anime and manga, which is nearly five years old, extensively populated, and supported by a list. I have removed the recursion, and added see-also links to other categories for these genres. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: Slice-of-life may be too subjective and too general, but coming-of-age seems more concrete and better maintainable. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:South Korean workplace drama

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: } merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:41, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:South Korean workplace drama to Category:South Korean drama television series
 * Propose merging Category:South Korean coming-of-age television series to Category:South Korean drama television series
 * Nominator's rationale: Somebody seems to have undertaken a recent campaign of excessive overcategorization of South Korean television series (there are at least two others, created by the same user at the same time as these two, that are already up for CFD on November 22, and I fear a spelunking expedition is in the cards to see if there are still others). These are not consistent with the way Wikipedia categorizes television series — there are no other "workplace drama" or "coming-of-age television series" categories on Wikipedia for any other country, and there's no reason why South Korea should get to make up its own sui generis genre categories for itself outside of the standard ones. Bearcat (talk) 05:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - a wider category such as Category:Television shows set in workplaces could be useful. Jim Michael (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Mostly non-defining, too prone to subjectivity (anybody could add any series that depicts a main character's workplace at all), and therefore unmaintainable. It would be far too close to categorizing songs by general lyrical themes, a thing that gets routinely deleted at AFD when people try it. Bearcat (talk) 18:27, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete & Merge per my comments on the prior CFD. TV shows set in workplaces would be nearly anything, with nothing to do with one another - nearly every TV show has a "workplace" from StarTrek to the Flintstones to the obvious The Office. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Most aren't set solely or primarily in a workplace. Jim Michael (talk) 23:56, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American prequel films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 07:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American prequel films to Category:Prequel films
 * Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure there's much substantive reason to subcategorize by individual nationality. There's no WP:DEFINING relationship between nationality and prequel status per se, and the parent category is not actually large enough to require geography-related subcatting for size management purposes. It's simply not a useful or needed category. Bearcat (talk) 04:50, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom.  Lugnuts  Precious bodily fluids 13:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. The parent category Category:Prequel films has less than 200 articles and is underpopulated. No need to create subcategories. Dimadick (talk) 09:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Not surprised to see who created it. Betty Logan (talk) 09:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - most of the prequel films that we have articles on are American. Prequel films have become more common in the US in recent years. The number of articles in the cat will obviously increase, so it makes no sense to delete it on the basis of it being underpopulated. Jim Michael (talk) 13:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * If 95 per cent of the articles in a category tree are or should be sitting in one specific subcategory, with only a negligible number of articles actually left outside of that one subcategory, then that in and of itself is another reason why the subcategory is not necessary. Bearcat (talk) 17:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Nowhere near 95% are American, but well over half are. A category is seen as valid if an article could be written about its topic, and an article about American prequel films and their increase in popularity could be be written. Jim Michael (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Upmerge - even with this category and the India one (nominated separately for upmergeing), the parent category would only have 105 articles; until it gets close to 200, there's no need to split it by country. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It will probably be over 200 soon. Jim Michael (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The fact is there are just not that many prequels to justify this level of refinement. We are not helping readers/editors by diffusing this sub-set of films to lots of non-defining low-populated sub-categories, and even then nationality is not a good diffusion criteria: if a film is an international co-production it would have to be added to two sub-categories or even more, which is why the film project diffuses by decade. Since all American films are added to Category:American films regardless, then Category:American prequel films is actually redundant anyway. Betty Logan (talk) 04:49, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Muslim Related Attacks

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy deleted C1. Bearcat (talk) 04:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting muslim related attacks


 * Nominator's rationale: I saw the discussion at the 2016 OSU attacks. Isn't this category unnecessary? Islamic Terrorism is already a category so this seems a bit extra. Adamtt9 (talk) 00:30, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Question The category is currently empty. What was previously in it? RevelationDirect (talk) 02:12, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There was never anything in it. Someone wanted to create the category, was informed not to, but then created the category anyway. Adamtt9 (talk) 02:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, the category appears to have been created seconds after the creator tried to include it in the 2016 Ohio State University attack article. Parsley Man (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Related how? Were Muslims attacked, were Muslims the attackers, or was the underlying dispute involving Islam? Seems like WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - We already have categories on this. They're called "Islamic terrorism", "Islamic terrorist incidents", "Islamic terrorism by country", etc., etc. Parsley Man (talk) 02:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Empty categories don't actually have to come to CFD for seven days of discussion if they weren't improperly emptied out of process, but rather can simply be speedy deleted per criterion C1. Consider the deed done. Bearcat (talk) 04:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.