Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 June 22



Category:The Chain Gang of 1974

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was:  at Categories for discussion/Log/2017 July 12.  ℯ  xplicit  00:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting the chain gang of 1974


 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON and numerous precedent at CfD, an unnecessary eponymous category as all pertinent articles populated into "works" subcategories, which also already interconnect to one other. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 23:11, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'm not sure why WP:OCEPON should apply to artists' discographies. I feel like people expect some kind of order and organisation when it comes to sorting articles about discographies. Just because there isn't many releases in an artists' discography that have articles on Wikipedia like, say, Coldplay or U2, doesn't mean that that's a rationale to have no category organisation for their discography on Wikipedia, I'd think. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 23:21, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Because the discography is already organized just as simply in the albums and songs categories without the need of the parent. An eponymous category is only necessary when there is a breadth of articles over a range of topics for which navigation in such a parent category would be beneficial. As is, that can be done just as easily through the main article and the song/album categories. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 23:28, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, in that case I'd suggest not going anywhere near Wikimedia Commons if you don't want to give yourself a heart attack. Haha. I have no other input other than 1) we were talking about categories independent of any mainspace organisation and 2) if that's how categories are treated on Wikipedia, then I suppose that's one more thing not to like about the English Wikipedia. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 23:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-democracy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:11, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting anti-democracy


 * Nominator's rationale: This is a questionable label, being used for what looks like partisan purposes. I can't see a good reason for it to exist. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 22:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * delete It looks from the initial fill that this category is for things which are non-democratic. We do not create categories for things that are not something. Also, seeing Plato side by side with Adolf Hitler is kinda weird. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment Why does it seem weird? Plato wrote a work called Republic, where he discusses the ideal regime for a city-state. He advocated concepts like abolishing the family and any concept of familial relationships: "human reproduction ought to be regulated by the state and all offspring should be ignorant of their actual biological parents". He wrote extensively against democracy. And his ideal government happened to be a form of totalitarianism, where the state controls the lives of its every human from birth to death. "The city portrayed in the Republic struck some critics as harsh, rigid, and unfree; indeed, as totalitarian. Karl Popper gave a voice to that view in his 1945 book The Open Society and Its Enemies. Popper singled out Plato's state as a dystopia; Popper thought Plato's envisioned state totalitarian as it advocated a government composed only of a distinct hereditary ruling class, with the working class — who Popper argues Plato regards as "human cattle" — given no role in decision making. He argues that Plato has no interest in what are commonly regarded as the problems of justice — the resolving of disputes between individuals — because Plato has redefined justice as "keeping one's place". " Somewhat unsurprisingly, several of Plato's pupils went on to become tyrants and rule cities in their own right.
 * The ideal ruler for Plato was a philosopher king, one of his most famous ideas. And there is a view that the 20th century experienced several such philosopher kings, and paid the price for them: "Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx respectively). In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic. As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic republic on it" Dimadick (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * deleteIt also looks as if its used as a synonym for "stuff I don't like." Given the muzzy edges of most political groupings, and the different meanings of "democratic", almost anything can be seen both as "democratic" or "anti-democratic".  Anmccaff (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * delete This is not a category that adds anything encyclopaedic to the encyclopaedia. Seeing Plato being thus categorized brought me here. Mcewan (talk) 04:49, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * delete – problematic category. Ironically Adolf Hitler's rise to power came about through democratic procedures. With this in mind, how do we classify a topic as "anti-democracy"? – S. Rich (talk) 05:26, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * delete created by a confirmed sockpuppet of User:JP8077. Doug Weller  talk 13:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. Block evasion by User:JP8077. Binksternet (talk) 04:14, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:MIT files

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 08:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting mit files


 * Nominator's rationale: Seems to be outdated. MIT is a navbox, and it makes no sense to add a navbox to a file. Maybe this meant MIT license, which is unused anyway? Either way, it's clear that this category isn't being used. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 17:53, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Worcester

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Worcester, Massachusetts (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 08:34, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting roman catholic bishops of worcester


 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT, this category contains only one entry and no evidence suggests more entires will be added in the future. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 14:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep – it was the work of a minute or so to find the other 4 people who have held this position. It could be renamed to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Worcester, Massachusetts per Worcester, Massachusetts and Category:People from Worcester, Massachusetts. Oculi (talk) 17:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment I do not remember creating this, but there is a Wikiproject:Catholicism category scheme, and if the category fits the criteria, it should be kept. Ideally, the category would be sub of RC Bishop's in Massachusetts, etc. Many categories in the project scheme have only a few entries, because the dioceses we're created only a few decades ago. –Zfish118⋉talk 02:03, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I apparently did create it, and Oculi further populated it. It matches the peer categories for the Fall River and Boston dioceses, so Very Strong Keep as consistent with the RC scheme. –Zfish118⋉talk 02:21, 23 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Rename Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Worcester, Massachusetts, to distinguish it from pre-Reformation (i.e. Catholic) Category:Bishops of Worcester, which is what I was expecting this to be about. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep and Rename per Peterkingiron. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:18th-century executions by Great Britain

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename as nominated.  ℯ  xplicit  00:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose re-naming Category:18th-century executions by Great Britain to Category:People executed by the Kingdom of Great Britain
 * Nominator's Rationale per other "by state" categories. They were executed by a state, not by an island. As the state only existed for a single year outside the 18th century, a "by century" split seems like overkill. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Rename but to Category:18th-century executions in Great Britain. Only the state could undertake executions.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that the whole tree uses "by". Marcocapelle (talk) 23:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment. Entirely agree with, hence the necessity for the nomination in order to eliminate the possibility of error. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and per Marcocapelle.GreyShark (dibra) 06:40, 27 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Works about Hergé

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Works about Hergé to Category:Hergé and Category:Works about comics
 * Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT, just a single article in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * support per nom. Mangoe (talk) 11:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Amenmesse

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  ℯ  xplicit  00:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting amenmesse


 * Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:SMALLCAT and WP:OCEPON. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Albums Recorded at The Total Experience Recording Studio

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  ℯ  xplicit  00:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting albums recorded at the total experience recording studio


 * Nominator's rationale: Maybe factual but probably not defining for these albums to have been recorded at this studio. It just happens to be the studio in which they were recorded. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 02:00, 22 June 2017 (UTC)}}


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional characters who committed suicide

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. The opposition of the proposed renaming went pretty poorly argued, with no particularly compelling points made against it.  ℯ  xplicit  06:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fictional characters who committed suicide to Category:Fictional suicides
 * Nominator's rationale: To match parent category Category:Suicides and to comply with Manual of Style/Writing about fiction (by not using the past tense for fictional events). — anemone projectors — 16:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * How about Category:Fictional suicide victims ? DexDor(talk) 13:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That might make it clearer, so I'd be happy with that. — anemone projectors — 14:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support original nomination, per WP:C2C, it matches with Category:Suicides. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * the name should be kept the same and not changed. --67.81.107.101 (talk) 03:34, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ  xplicit  00:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support rename to Category:Fictional suicides. bd2412  T 14:27, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose This changes the meaning of the category. An actual person about whom a non-factual suicide claim is made would fit under here, is that intended? Anmccaff (talk) 14:31, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Such as who? (I'm asking the question because that situation sounds pretty hypothetical). Marcocapelle (talk) 09:08, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Vincent Foster, if you listen to some people. Jeff Buckley. With an ambigous name, I'd see this as a loon magnet. Anmccaff (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * If the category name I suggested is wrong, it shouldn't remain as it is because "Fictional characters who committed suicide" is wrong according to Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. I don't think it would be confused with false claims of suicide - the category would be defined and the is clearly categorised for fiction. There isn't a category for such false suicide claims, so there probably aren't many and if there are they're not notable or defining. —  a nemone   p ro j ec t ors  10:04, 1 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment I often thought this manual of style is completely absurd and one of Wikipedia's fatal flaws. It pays far too much attention on the "real world" (which usually translates to trivial mentions in magazines), rather than on the significance of any fictional work. And it treats any event of a fictional work as part of an eternal present, when that is not justified by the work itself.:
 * In the The Lord of the Rings, the main events in the "present" take place within a couple of years, but the characters regularly discuss the extensive past of their world, mentioning people and events from centuries or millennia ago. The Appendix to the work gives detailed historic accounts and genealogies covering several thousand years.
 * The Conan the Barbarian tales cover only a few decades in the life of a single protagonist (Conan goes from teenager to middle-aged man), but often mention people and states that long precede Conan's birth. The companion essay The Hyborian Age has Robert E. Howard discuss the history of his world, covering events millennia before Conan's birth, and continuing to centuries and millennia following Conan's death.
 * A Song of Ice and Fire covers only a few years in the "present" of its fictional world, but the main strength of the novels are the detailed and obviously contradictory accounts of the past. The history goes back several thousands years, with characters depicted as heroes or villains, depending on the POV of the "present" characters who narrate an account. Even when characters discuss their own pasts or childhoods, they are unreliable narrators whose accounts are colored by their own spin of what actually happened. (For example Tyrion Lannister often obsesses about his ill-fated marriage to a poor girl and the gang-rape which dissolved the marriage, but sees himself as the victim rather than the gang-raped girl. Despite the fact that he participated in the gang rape of his wife. His sister Cersei Lannister thinks that her entire life is defined by a childhood prophecy/curse placed on her by a witch, but it is increasingly likely (as the story continues) that this is partly a self-fulfilling prophecy and/or that she has misinterpreted its meaning in part or entirely.)
 * in Les Misérables, several characters are defined or haunted by traumatic events in the past. Jean Valjean spends most of his life as a wanted man, paying the consequences for stealing a loaf of bread in 1795. An act which apparently branded him as a criminal for life. Javert's obsession with justice and his hatred of criminals, are based on the fact that both his parents were criminals and that he was born and raised in a prison.
 * In The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, the "present" of the novel are a few months in 1482. However the characters of Esmeralda and Quasimodo are in large part defined by a distant event in their infancy: they were exchanged for each other. Quasimodo "was born to a Gypsy tribe, but due to his monstrous appearance he was switched during infancy with a physically normal baby girl (the infant Esmeralda)". Quasimodo is the one with the real Gypsy ancestry, while Esmeralda was simply raised by gypsies, and is killed in part due to the peoples' prejudice against gypsies. The character Paquette la Chantefleuri/"Sister Gudule" turns out to be Esmeralda's birth mother and the one who abandoned Quasimodo, but is unable to help either child in their hour of need. Dimadick (talk) 23:40, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I moved your comments here from the nomination below, where they appeared to be misplaced. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: three categories with past-tense names were nominated for renaming to present tense at 2015 Nov 26 with a similar rationale, including this and the parent Category:Fictional characters who have attempted suicide, but there was a consensus against renaming then. – Fayenatic  L ondon 06:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I did nominate them, and I think the reasons for opposing were quite poor and that there needed to be more discussion from people who understood Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. —  a nemone   p ro j ec t ors  12:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree, it seems like the only concerns in that discussion are about having 'pacts' in plural. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional characters who have self harmed

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  ℯ  xplicit  06:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fictional characters who have self harmed to Category:Fictional self-harmers
 * Nominator's rationale: Firstly, self-harm is hyphenated. There is no parent category for real-life self-harmers, but people who self-harm are referred to as "self-harmers" in the self-harm article. Additionally, the use of past tense in the category title goes against Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. — anemone projectors — 16:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per WP:NONDEF, the characters aren't defined by this particular behavior. Perhaps listify. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ  xplicit  00:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete agree 100% with --Tom (LT) (talk) 08:07, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Belgian book publishers (people)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Book publishers (people) from the Southern Netherlands. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting belgian book publishers (people)


 * Nominator's rationale: Only populated with people from before 1830, most of them from a few centuries earlier. Belgium didn't exist then, it would be better to list them as Flemish (in most cases) instead. Most are already in Category:Flemish printers: printers and book publishers were, certainly in those ages, the same, so no need to have a category "Flemish book publishers" either. As it stands, the category is completely anachronistic Fram (talk) 11:34, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * No objection to renaming this to something else that people may be comfortable with. But every last person here was already sitting directly in as it is, so the idea that categorizing them that way would be inappropriate is clearly not in line with what we were actually doing — and any group of 15 people of common nationality, within a category which has an "Occupation by nationality" subcategory tree, must unconditionally be permitted to be filtered from the parent into a nationality subcat instead. So I'd be fine with renaming this to something else — but I'm not on board with the idea that no category for this grouping is warranted at all, because tell that to the editors who put these people in "Book publishers (people)" in the first place before coming for me over it. If they belong in the "book publishers" tree at all, then some nationality subcategory must be allowed to exist — and if they never belonged there in the first place, then the fault lies with whoever put them there in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 17:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Rename somehow -- The territory occupied by Belgium has been a largely intact polity since the 15th century, though with some accretions and losses, but has gone by different names: Flanders and other provinces inherited by Charles V from Burgundy; Spanish Netherlands, Austrian Netherlands. Most of the people seem to be Flemings rather than Walloons, but I suspect that some of the area is technically not part of Flanders, so that I cannot provide a good target.  However the present name is grossly anachronistic for a category largely devoted to people of the 16th and 17th centuries.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Book publishers (people) from the Southern Netherlands. Southern Netherlands encompasses (southern) Spanish Netherlands, Austrian Netherlands and the Prince-Bishopric of Liege, in other words all of current Belgium in the 16th, 17th and 18th century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ  xplicit  00:26, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been relisted. Could you indicate whether or not you agree with my proposal of 24 May. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:46, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support Marcocapelle's suggestion, which is what I was suggesting. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.