Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 30



Category:Musicians from Takatsuki, Osaka

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 13:18, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting musicians from takatsuki, osaka


 * Nominator's rationale: Overcategorisation. When I originally made the category in 2014, there happened to be a clump of musicians from Takatsuki in the first section of data, but it turned out that there weren't actually that many. I don't think being from Takatsuki vs. being from Osaka Prefecture in general has that great influence on their music, so I'd recommend each page be recategorised into the two parent categories - Category:Musicians from Osaka Prefecture and Category:People from Takatsuki, Osaka. Prosperosity (talk) 22:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Upmerge -- If you mean "merge" (which I would support), please nominate as CFM not for deletion. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:02, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Singapore education navigational boxes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 14:20, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting singapore education navigational boxes


 * Nominator's rationale: Category is currently unpopulated. There aren't many entries in the parent category and most of those entries are navbox templates, so this category is rather redundant. -- AquaDTRS (talk) 22:01, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * delete no need Hhkohh (talk) 10:40, 2 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Corporate law by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. ℯ xplicit  04:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Corporate law to Category:Business law added 31 August
 * Propose merging Category:Corporate law by country to Category:Business law by country
 * Nominator's rationale: Substantial overlap. Business law is a little wider and better populated. Rathfelder (talk) 12:53, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Category:Corporate law by country is merely a subcat scheme for Category:Corporate law and  Category:Business law by country for  Category:Business law. A merge of the 2 nominated would leave a very strange set of subcats such as Category:United States corporate law and Category:United States business law. Further, as Category:Corporate law is a subcategory of Category:Business law, there is necessarily a complete overlap, always the case with a subcategory and its parent. Oculi (talk) 13:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge, to align with article space where Business law redirects to Corporate law. Country subcats should be merged in conjunction. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Struck my vote per discussion below. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that Wikipedia redirects should be regarded as gospel; the 2 categories look quite different to me. There is an article commercial law, said here to be synonymous with business law. Merging Category:Corporate law and Category:Business law would be a good place to start. Oculi (talk) 11:51, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Completely agree on the latter. I've added the parent categories to the nomination and tagged all four categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Business law and corporate law are not exactly the same thing, especially before companies became common. Some articles are about the regulation of trade in the middle ages. Rathfelder (talk) 19:03, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Please provide reliable sources for distinguishing business law from corporate law. And note that you are now undermining your own nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:57, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not all business is conducted by corporate bodies. Not all the law about business relates to corporations.  To take one at random from Category:Business law: Practicing without a license. Rathfelder (talk) 17:59, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean something like this: What is the difference between corporate and business law but preferably a bit more reliable. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:07, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * That actually seems a reasonable summary.Rathfelder (talk) 07:35, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * In article Law a similar distinction is made between Corporate law as sprang from Trust law while Business law sprang from Contract and Property law. It looks as if the two should not be merged. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2018 (UTC)


 * On the conceptual level that is true, but I think the actual articles spread over the border a lot. Business has become a more corporate thing over time. At a country level there are not enough articles to divide.  Rathfelder (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * If so, it would require a nomination of e.g. Category:United States corporate law and Category:United States business law as well, and this also for other countries (see comment Oculi above). But if we agree that the two things are actually different then the target should become something like Category:United States corporate law and commercial law. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd be perfectly happy with a tree of corporate and commercial law. But this is not my field of expertise.  I wonder whether anything in business law would be excluded? Rathfelder (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose -- Business law is liable to involve contract and shipping law as well as company law (in US law as to business corporations). Peterkingiron (talk) 16:04, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Democracy and the United Kingdom

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 16:14, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting democracy and the united kingdom


 * Nominator's rationale: Arbitrary categorisation. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:36, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd call it disruptive categorisation.Rathfelder (talk) 12:55, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * There is democracy and there is the UK, two very big, very different things which sometimes relate. The United Kingdom occasionally deals with democracy movements, as in the Scotland independence referendum, 2014, and democracy in the US and other countries, as in the Cambridge Analytica scandal. -Inowen (nlfte) 19:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete, 'democracy' is not a defining characteristic of the articles in this category and honestly I cannot see why would need to have something more beyond the huge tree of Category:Politics of the United Kingdom that we already have. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:33, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete – Makes no sense, opens the door to arbitrary inclusion of almost anything having to do with UK politics. — JFG talk 23:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - a guideline found at WP:AND surprisingly applies: Titles containing "and" are often red flags that the article has neutrality problems or is engaging in original research: avoid the use of "and" in ways that appear biased. Place Clichy (talk) 07:56, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:21st-century Roman Catholicism

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename by replacing 'Roman Catholicism' with 'Catholicism'. ℯ xplicit  04:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:21st-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 21st century
 * Propose renaming Category:20th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 20th century
 * Propose renaming Category:19th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 19th century
 * Propose renaming Category:18th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 18th century
 * Propose renaming Category:17th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 17th century
 * Propose renaming Category:16th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 16th century
 * Propose renaming Category:15th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 15th century
 * Propose renaming Category:14th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 14th century
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 13th century
 * Propose renaming Category:12th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 12th century
 * Propose renaming Category:11th-century Roman Catholicism to Category:Catholic Church in the 11th century
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholicism of the Middle Ages to Category:Catholic Church in the Middle Ages
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C: following 1) Category:Roman Catholicism -> Category:Catholic Church, 2) Recent rename of Category:Christianity in the Middle Ages, as well as 3) Category:11th century-Category:21st century. Please note that this request does not pertain the Category:Latin Church, but to Category:Catholic Church. If you want to propose an equivalent category tree branch as an extension of Category:Latin Church, feel free, but please refrain from contaminating this request with too much discussion about that. Please note that there is currently no WP:CONSENSUS on what category title formula such a category tree should follow. These above preexisting categories pertains (pertained) to Category:Catholic Church, not Category:Latin Church, and there are no indications that they have pertained to the latter ever at all since their inception. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:56, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose - the nom persists in trying to rename Roman Catholicism categories to 'Catholic Church' ones, despite repeated efforts from other editors to explain that 'Catholicism' and 'Catholic Church' are not synonymous in the real world beyond Wikipedia redirects (often created by the nom). Also oppose 'in the nth century' format, per all subcats of say Category:5th century in religion or indeed Category:Religion in the Middle Ages, not to mention Category:5th century. I would have no objection to Category:13th-century Catholicism or  Category:13th-century catholicism etc. Oculi (talk) 09:43, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above categories in question pertains to the Catholic Church, as evident from its contents and longstanding parent categorising. Anglo-Catholicism- and Independent Catholicism-related things are categorised elsewhere. Thus, it is quite the other way around. Feel free to go about extending category branch trees from under Category:Anglo-Catholicism and Category:Independent Catholicism, but please keep discussions about those topics separated from what has since a long time been categorised under Category:Catholic Church (only with inconsistent category titles which are now being harmonised). Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:52, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * My remarks pertain exclusively to the categories to be renamed in the nom. Oculi (talk) 13:04, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid their surrounding categories and contents matter per WP:C2C, and WP:C2D. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:13, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:C2C is for Consistency with established category tree names, and category tree names are far from established with consistency in the realm of Catholicism, as you keep arguing, rightfully so. WP:C2D is Consistency with main article's name and applies only for the category (as you often cite the Catholic Church article as point of reference), it does not apply mecanically to the entire category tree. Place Clichy (talk) 16:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment, since Category:Catholicism still exists, I've boldly changed the redirect in Category:Roman Catholicism from Category:Catholic Church to Category:Catholicism as the more natural category to redirect to. On the other hand Category:Roman Catholic Church redirecting to Category:Catholic Church is perfectly fine. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the good faith edit of yours in deviation of a decade+ longstanding WP:CONSENSUS. If you still insist, I would ask you to initiate a discussion over that on the proper location. Until, consistency reference to the consensus of this location should weight in, including in this discussion. Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose, an article like Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good is not about the Catholic Church as such. I would support the nomination if it would replace Catholic Church by Catholicism. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Then I would support alt formula "Catholicism" as a second best, as propsed by you and above. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:14, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose as nom but support alt rename to Category:21st-century Catholicism etc. In all logic, Category:History of the Catholic Church could (should) also be renamed to Category:History of Catholicism, as a previous renaming from History of Roman Catholicism seems to have been done a bit quick seen the discussion above. Note that the content of these categories seem in fact to apply to the history of Catholicism as a whole, and that History of Eastern Catholicism categories are subcategories of the discussed ctageories. Dropping Roman is therefore approriate. However, using Catholic Church is inappropriate, as for instance there was a time in the 14th and 15th century when there were several competing Catholic Churches, and history of catholicism includes separate movements like Cathars, Waldensians, Hussites etc. Place Clichy (talk) 16:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with, as seen for instance here. You seem to tend to ooppose these kinds of requests with references to ostensibly established conventions - although these are far from established. Please consider contributing to Naming_conventions_(Catholicism) before you assert conventions related to these requests. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I actually agreed with the substance of your proposal here, and I also agree with Marcocapelle's opinion on the current nomination. I also placed a worded opinion at your invitation at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholicism) on 29 August, which I help will clarify the point. Place Clichy (talk) 16:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Health organisations in the Netherlands

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 16:15, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Health organisations in the Netherlands to Category:Medical and health organisations based in the Netherlands
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate of Category:Medical and health organisations based in the Netherlands. Upmerge. Shyamsunder (talk) 08:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd support this. I can't see why I created it as a seperate category.Rathfelder (talk) 08:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Guests on Dr. Phil (talk show)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 16:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting guests on dr. phil (talk show)


 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NOTDEFINING for any of the names added to the category. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:49, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete As it happens, I depopulated the category (using the edit summary "Not a defining characteristic; WP:CATDEF") before I even noted that this CfD had been opened.  General Ization  Talk  02:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete I created the category but I now see why it doesn't need to be on Wikipedia. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 (talk) 05:01, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete classic WP:PERFCAT. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-defining. — JFG talk 01:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. We do not use the category system to create lists of everything it might be possible to create a list of — we create categories to classify people on their WP:DEFINING characteristics, which talk show appearances are not. Imagine the category bloat if we did this for every talk show that's ever existed: Ellen DeGeneres David Letterman Ricki Lake Phil Donahue Tyra Banks Conan O'Brien (on three separate shows!) Stephen Colbert Jimmy Fallon Johnny Carson Jay Leno Jimmy Kimmel Dr. Oz Rosie O'Donnell Arsenio Hall Joan Rivers The View The Chew The Talk The Social Maury Povich Marilyn Denis yadda yadda yadda...nip this in the bud, now. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete -- as classic WP:PERFCAT, and worse than most. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:06, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Flora of West Africa

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. <b style="color:#4B0082;">ℯ</b> xplicit  04:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Flora of West Africa to Category:Flora of West Tropical Africa
 * Nominator's rationale: These categories appear to be for the same region. DexDor(talk) 18:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose as nominated, because "West Tropical Africa" is defined in accordance with the World Geographical Scheme for Recording Plant Distributions (WGSRPD), which is used to subdivide Category:Flora of Africa. "West Africa" is part of Category:Regions of Africa, and is ambiguous: according to the map on Category:Flora of West Africa it also includes Maghreb, which is part of the WGSRPD Category:Flora of North Africa; but according to the parent page Category:Biota of West Africa it also includes Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, which are in the WGSRPD Category:Flora of the middle Atlantic Ocean. Instead, split to those three WGSRPD categories, and convert to container category to hold Category:Flora of West Tropical Africa and Category:Flora of the middle Atlantic Ocean (based on the definition on the Biota parent page). – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:27, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
 * My reading of Category:Flora of West Africa (and in particular the linked article West Africa) is that it excludes the Maghreb (i.e. it's just the dark green area on the map). I checked a sample of articles in the category and none appear to be limited to North Africa. It'd probably be a good idea to change to a less ambigious map and then check all the articles in the category. DexDor(talk) 19:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I've now changed Cat:FoWA to use a less ambiguous map (showing the same region as the map at Cat:FoWTA - i e. not including the Maghreb) and checked the articles in the category - none were in the Maghreb but not in WTA (but I made some category changes for other reasons). DexDor(talk) 17:28, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not in favour of User:Fayenatic london's scheme because (1) it does not fit with the scheme defined at PLANTS/Using_the_WGSRPD (which has Africa, including the islands in the Atlantic, divided into 10 regions) and (2) it is unnecessarily complicated for those unfamiliar with the category structure (e.g. many articles referring to tropical West Africa etc have been placed in Cat:FoWA and not in Cat:FoWTA). DexDor(talk) 20:57, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for resolving the misleading map. Now, how does my proposal not fit with the defined scheme? In practice, what is the difference between our proposals? We both favour having articles only in the 10 WGSRPD Region categories, and none directly in FoWA. Is there really only one difference, namely the fate of the FoWA page: a container category in my proposal, but perhaps you would suggest redirecting it after the merge? I can accept the latter, if both FoWTA and FomAO will be placed in the current parents of FoWA. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:19, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:#4B0082;">ℯ</b> xplicit 01:27, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Certainly merge. The fate of the FoWA page is a minor issue, I have a weak preference for redirecting. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge (and purge if necessary). I might have preferred "Tropical West Africa", but it appears that the classification scheme does not agree with me.  A headnote should be added to tie this to the scheme's scope.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:09, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.