Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 May 24



Category:Irregular military in Lebanon

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Not renamed; no prejudice against a new nomination to an alternate title. There's a clear problem with the current title but the proposed alternative is considered worse and no clear counter-proposal has yet emerged. Timrollpickering 21:27, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Irregular military in Lebanon to Category:Rebel groups in Lebanon
 * Nominator's rationale: No other countries have a national category called "Irregular military", but very many have a category in Category:Rebel groups by country, where I added this one today. (The French equivalent fr:Catégorie:Faction armée au Liban is part of fr:Catégorie:Faction armée par pays which corresponds to "Rebel groups" in English wikipedia.) – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * tentative oppose. In a multi-polar civil war with a collapsed state (which Lebanon was for ~2 decades), the term "rebel group" seems wrong.  Several of these factions were the de facto rulers of parts of Lebanon. "Irregular military" isn't a great label either, but it seems better than "rebels". -- Brown Haired Girl (talk) • (contribs) 23:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Question, can't we just merge this to its parent Category:Paramilitary organizations based in Lebanon‎, i.e. how different are these two categories? Marcocapelle (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose nom but rename somehow -- I think we might take a lead from the French WP, cited above, by using the neutral Category:Armed factions in Lebanon. Lebanon has a government where the Christians and Muslims are in approximate balance, but destabilised by Palestinian exiles (without votes) and Hezbollah, one of the Muslim factions. However that sentence expresses a POV.  Each party tends to have is own military wing.  The Paramilitary cat seems largely to be political groupings with military wings, whereas  this one is for the military wings.  However, there may be some mis-categorisation in each direction.  I am opposing the nom, because they are not necessarily "rebels"; some will be the military wings of government parties.  "Armed factions" has a NPOV feel about it, but should exclude official government forces.  Peterkingiron (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree that Irregular military by country is not helpful. In fact I find it hard to see any useful distinction between irregular military and paramilitary, though usage of all these terms varies a lot in time and place. But the term Rebel Groups is also a bit difficult.  Most of the articles are about armed rebel groups, but I can't see that you need to be armed to be a rebel. And of course over time a rebel group may take power which can cause even more confusion. My view is that the term paramilitary is the least ambiguous and subjective of all the overlapping terms in this area. Rathfelder (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Brown Haired Girl. Rebels is a subjective definition, whereas in Lebanese Civil War at some point the Lebanese Army collapsed, with militias dividing the country; there cannot be only rebels in such case.GreyShark (dibra) 11:27, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American bisexual men

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 11:30, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American bisexual men to Category:Bisexual men and Category:LGBT people from the United States
 * Nominator's rationale: It is not useful to subdivide by nationality. There is no other sibling category for any other country, and other comparable categories (e.g., , , etc.) are not (and should not be) subcatted by nationality at all. In the "LGBT people" tree, it is not useful or productive to crosscategorize the "LGBT people by nationality" subcategories with the "People by combination of orientation and gender" subcategories — it is not useful to isolate American bisexual men from American gay men and American bisexual women and British bisexual men. Bearcat (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Weak support, while an American subcategory may soon become a well populated category and there seems nothing inherently wrong with it, a serious risk is that it will soon be followed by other nationality subcats and ultimately by many single-article or two-article categories for the smallest countries - which would be highly undesirable. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Native American LGBT-related films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: relisted, see here. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting native american lgbt-related films


 * Nominator's rationale: This category was originally created to contain just one film. I was aware of just two other films I could add to it (and even one of those two is technically stretching it, because while one significant character in the film happens to be Native American the film isn't really about that) -- but even a comprehensive category comparison between and  in AWB failed to turn up even one other film besides the two I already knew about. I'm willing to withdraw this if somebody with much more knowledge about this subject area can populate the category over the WP:SMALLCAT barrier -- but three films isn't enough to warrant this yet, and I've been unable to find any others. Bearcat (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment User:Ashley785890, the creator of the category, wrote a comment on the category talk page, I'll copy it over to here, see below. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "Thank you for your feedback. I'm not sure how many Native American LGBT films exist.  I would like for Native American LGBT films to have their own Wiki page if possible so that Native American LGBT people can easily search for their own films.  While one could collapse these films into American LGBT films, if someone just wants to view culturally distinctive LGBT films, especially those pertaining to Native American culture, where one or all protagonists are LGBT, they can do so. Or, if this is more so related to the lack of the number of known Native American LGBT films, perhaps it would be better to create an Indigenous LGBT films page, to encompass Native LGBT films not just from the United States, but also from Canada, Latin America, and other parts of the world."


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:18th-century Belgian artists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete noting this only contains one subcategory so this is not a clear precedent for more populated categories. Timrollpickering 22:34, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 18th-century belgian artists


 * Nominator's rationale: Belgium didn't exist in the 18th century, should be in Category:18th-century Flemish painters (or another region or country if not Flemish) Fram (talk) 13:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Well the discussion should extend to Category:18th-century Belgian lawyers, Category:18th-century Belgian painters, Category:18th-century Belgian women and Category:18th-century Belgian people as well (ie the whole 18th-century category). In fact "Belgian people" goes back to Category:6th-century Belgian people.  Hugo999 (talk) 13:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose wide deletion. On the narrow issue, there is now only one artist, who was Flemish. So that can be merged to Category:18th-century Flemish painters; it was only set up on the 24th May. On the broader issue, you might as well tackle Category:Belgian people (before 1830), the head of the tree (since 2010), (where Category:18th-century Flemish painters is also parented). But this is far smaller than Category:Flemish people and Category:Walloon people.  We don't have categories for artists or other people by occupation from "another region or country" ie non-Flemish Belgium, except for 3 Walloon cats. Obviously, deleting all these would be really stupid and the question is how to rename them, if a rename is needed.  This is a somewhat thorny question, about which Belgians have strong views, and where the terminology in English differs from the local one (on defining "Flemish" for example).  "Southern Netherlands" might be best. Personally I could live with "Belgian", which is at least clearer, but it might be better to merge all lower categories to Flemish or Walloon, which I think works in English, but not locally (Bishopric of Liege etc), and just have a "Belgian" container cat above that. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with "pre-1830" Belgian people, where there is modern Belgium flag in the category. This is an attempt to create anachronisms and impose modern Belgian identity on past.GreyShark (dibra) 11:21, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the parenting problem discussed by Johnbod, but I disagree with the suggestion. As far as I can discern by reading our article on Belgium, there was no independent Belgium prior to 1830. There were various polities of varying borders prior thereto none well mapping to today's Belgium; the closest antecedent appears to be the Southern Netherlands stemming from 1556 to just prior to Belgium's independence. Again, the borders shifted between 1556 and 1814, and at various times included not all of Belgium, but included parts of modern-day Luxembourg, Germany, the Netherlands, and France. To call someone who lived in the 18th Century a "Belgian" is ahistoric. Using a term such as "Low Countries" may work better as a naming compromise as those borders are less precise but are more akin to what the categories may contain; and under such parentage each phase can have "people from XXX" where XXX is whatever polity existed during the period. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree with using Low Countries for this period (while it would be okay to use until ~ 1580). In the 18th century, the Southern Netherlands, largely consisting of the Austrian Netherlands, were entirely separate from the Dutch Republic, in political and cultural sense. Agree with Johnbod that Category:18th-century artists from the Southern Netherlands may work best. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree, as long as this is a parent cat for the "Flemish artists" one, as these artists are usually called "Flemish" in all relevant publications. See e.g. this book from Yale University Press]. Fram (talk) 07:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not the ones who were Walloons - a minority but a large one. That's taking the English definition - to the Belgians themselves Dutch-speaking people from Antwerp etc at this period were not "Flemish", but we should ignore that. But French-speakers from Brussels etc were never "Flemish", even in English. Mostly Walloon painters followed French styles rather than being part of "Flemish painting". Johnbod (talk) 12:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That depends. Many people who would currently be described as Walloon or Brussels are considered "Flemish" painters anyway (and in Belgium, Rubens and other painters from outside the county of Flanders are also considered "Flemish" painters by everyone but the most hardline reductionists). "French-speakers from Brussels etc were never "Flemish"" is not true (well, Brussels was largely Dutch-speaking anyway, but French-speakers from e.g. Tournai or Maubeuge were seen as Flemish painters for many centuries. Fram (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * We already have Category:18th-century painters from the Southern Netherlands; what does this extra layer then add? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That is a good question. I hadn't checked if we have categories for other types of artists from 18th-century Southern Netherlands. Since we do not have that, an extra parent category is premature. So it can be deleted for now. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It groups all proto-Belgians (Flemish & other Southern Netherlands, ie Walloons) together at a useful level, ie lower than the main Category:Belgian people (before 1830). In fact much of Category:18th-century painters from the Southern Netherlands was also in the Flemish sub-cat, thanks to edits last December by User:Jane023, some of which I've reversed. Johnbod (talk) 12:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the category by itself is clear, but within 18th-century Southern Netherlands we currently don't have any artists but painters, so that artists is a redundant layer. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Category:18th-century Belgian painters? - not the nominated category, but yes, that is redundant. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Both, actually. Category:18th-century painters from the Southern Netherlands may be parented directly to Category:18th-century Belgian people and the latter category should be nominated for rename as well, in a fresh nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There certainly should be an artistic parent before Belgian people, though otherwise I agree. Johnbod (talk) 13:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment -- We have a problem over what to call this country. It was Spanish Netherlands c.1570-c.1713; Austrian Netherlands c.1713-1790s; absorbed by France 1790-1814; part of United Netherlands 1814-30; then Belgium.  My dates are a little imprecise as there may be issues of de facto control and de jure.  Using Flemish as a demonym is inaccurate as part of the country is Walloon, not Flemish.  However with two languages distingushing the two communities, there is no reason why Flemish categories and Walloon ones should not be kept, but we need to parent these with Category:18th-century artists from Austrian Netherlands, with a preceding Category:17th-century artists from Spanish Netherlands.  I know that the change of control of the polity was in 1713 (or perhaps in practice a little earlier), but 13 years is much less than a lifetime.  This can be a container for Flemish and Walloon categories where appropriate.  Peterkingiron (talk) 08:16, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Using Spanish Netherlands and Austrian Netherlands in the category name, instead of Southern Netherlands, could be an option as well. The alternative would exclude people from the Prince-Bishopric of Liege and a few negligibly small states. I do not have a clear preference. But I've noticed that the category tree mixes both already (Austrian and Southern) and it would surely be an improvement when either of the two is going to be used consistently. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:59, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete as anachronistic dublicate of Category:18th-century painters from the Southern Netherlands.GreyShark (dibra) 11:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And delete also the Category:18th-century Belgian lawyers, Category:18th-century Belgian painters, Category:18th-century Belgian women and Category:18th-century Belgian people per Hugo999.GreyShark (dibra) 11:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * But not too hastily. We should consider what merge or rename options are applicable. See the discussion on tomorrow's CFD page to begin with. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:05, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Monroe Twins

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 21:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting monroe twins


 * Nominator's rationale: Category with just entry, the team itself. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:16, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete as too narrow to serve a navigational function. the players subcat was not connected for some reason. I've done that now, but still agree with the nom. SFB 20:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Upmerge Category:Monroe Twins players to Category:Monroe Twins. We only need one category for this stuff, and there should be one, but it need not have an over-specific name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That would go against current conventions. We have more than 4000 players categories and only some 1000 team categories, so there are must be many players categories around that do not have a team parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sports players and officials awarded knighthoods

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods. Timrollpickering 21:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sports players and officials awarded knighthoods to Category:Sporting knights
 * Nominator's rationale: To match Category:Sporting dames and improve the title to cover non-players/officials. An alternative would be Category:People awarded knighthoods for sport. SFB 01:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Support, though it's a tricky one, covering three distinct types of people: people awarded knighthoods for sport (e.g., Sir Stephen Redgrave); people awarded knighthoods largely for another reason after rising to fame in sport (e.g., Sir John Kirwan); and people who were already knights who then found additional fame through sport (e.g., Sir Hugh Robertson). Grutness... wha?   02:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support alternative Category:People awarded knighthoods for sport and purge where needed, the other two groups concern trivial intersections. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:21, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support ALT-2 Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods, per parents Category:People in sports (which is for competitors and others). The siblings within Category:Knights by occupation have the form "Foos awarded knighthoods". – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * would be even more in keeping with the other subcats of Grutness...  wha?   22:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support ALT-2 per Fayenatic london; the first proposal brings to mind the Las Vegas Knights; also one of the siblings is restricted to British knights, ought that be propagated or removed? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ALT-2 is fine too, assuming this will be equally effective in excluding people awarded knighthoods for another reason after rising to fame in sport and people who were already knights who then found additional fame through sport. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * My alt proposition is actually a new variation narrowing the scope to focus on the reason for knighthood, rather than the occupation. If the concern is that simply being a sportsperson who has a knighthood for some reason is trivial, then I suggest we could review the tree to this effect. For example, Roger Moore is in Category:Actors awarded British knighthoods, but this is merely coincidental as those two facets of Roger Moore have very little to do with each other. The non-trivial intersection for Moore would be Category:People awarded knighthoods for charitable services. I think it can be a very important distinction from those who have actually received the knighthood for services in the occupational field, such as Patrick Stewart. SFB 20:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That could be just as messy - a lot of people who have been awarded knighthoods largely for work outside the sporting field are listed as having received the award "for sport and Foo" (the example I gave of Sir John Kirwan is one such). I still think that is the way to go, since it matches the rest of the  tree. If you want it to match the one and only "Dames by occupation" category, then change that latter category to ". That would also remove any sportswomen who are simply damed by dint of marriage or heredity. Grutness...  wha?   02:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Should this be Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods? Note the ongoing discussion about lack of clarity of the word "sportspeople" meaning by some measures narrowly understood as "athlete" or broadly understood as any person in the sports industry. That was another intention of the change to match sporting dames. SFB 15:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise there was such a discussion (nor was I aware of the narrower understanding of the term), but if the consensus there is to move all categories to "People in sport" or the uglier "People in sports", then sure, that would make sense. Grutness... wha?   19:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods. "Sporting knights" is silly and ambiguous; seems to imply tournament jousters from the middle ages.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods; there might be alternatives varying word order. Peterkingiron (talk) 08:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The wording in the prior two comments doesn't distinguish between those awarded a knighthood for contribution to sport(s), rather than someone who has done any number of things among which sport(s) is included, who gets a knighthood (perhaps for charity, broadcasting, political office, or marrying into a noble family)... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Neither do any of the others in the tree. It might be better that way. Grutness...  wha?   02:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.