Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 8



Category:Child actors by medium

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus without prejudice against a fresh merge nomination. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting child actors by medium


 * Propose deleting film child actors


 * Propose deleting film male child actors


 * Propose deleting film child actresses


 * Propose deleting television child actors


 * Propose deleting television male child actors


 * Propose deleting television child actresses


 * Propose deleting television child actors by nationality


 * Propose deleting television child actresses by nationality


 * Propose deleting film child actresses by language


 * Propose deleting indian television child actors


 * Propose deleting indian television male child actors


 * Propose deleting indian television child actresses


 * Nominator's rationale: It is not useful to subcategorize actors by the intersection of child actor status with the "film vs. television" medium distinction. Even more so than adult actors, child actors really don't "specialize" in one medium or the other, but almost always have both film and television roles in their filmographies -- so obsessively overcategorizing them this way just creates excessive category bloat as each kid gets catted as "nationality child actors" and "nationality film actors" and "nationality television actors" and "film child actors" and "television child actors". By and large, further, these have been used only for a partial random selection of Indian and Filipino child actors, with only one male and one female child actor from any other country on earth ever having been added to any of these categories at all. Bearcat (talk) 17:03, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep for now . The rationale and the proposal don't match. Category:Child actors by medium is a container category, with a total of 21 subcats in two trees.  Bearcat has nominated only 10 of the 21 subcats and has bizarrely proposed deletion rather than upmerger. So long as any of the subcats exist, it makes no sense to delete the container category.
 * I am also unpersuaded that child actors don't "specialize" in one medium or the other. The only child actor who I have ever personally known (they are know a middle-aged non-actor) worked exclusively in television.  That's obviously only a personal anecdote, but even if the nom did decide to nominate all the subcategories, then I'd want to see some evidence to support their assertion. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:18, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The subcategories I haven't listed here are of a completely different type — "Child actors in Specific-Indian-Regional cinema" — which would have to be batched and considered completely separately from this, because the reasons for or against those will be completely different from the reasons for or against the ones I've batched here. I haven't knowingly excluded a single category whose questionability hinges on the grounds I've specified here, rather than on completely different grounds that require a separate batch, and even if I did accidentally miss something the stragglers can easily still be added to the batch. And the vast majority of the articles are already in the appropriate other categories anyway, and don't need to be upmerged anywhere at all — so there's no need to actively propose an upmerger, when simple editor attention can easily pick out the one or two oddball exceptions that actually need a replacement category rather than just a straight removal. Bearcat (talk) 17:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, @Bearcat, but that is a multiply weird response:
 * Indian child actors are not of a completely different type to other child actors, unless you are measuring skin colour, which I assume your are not. They are child actors, just like child actors in Dublin or Dubai or Durban of Dallas or Dusseldorf. I am finding it very hard to read that comment as anything other than "Indian child actors are not normal child actors", which would be a highly problematic stance.  Please clarify what on earth you do actually mean?
 * If you propose keeping those categories, then there is no sense in eliminating their parent categories. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I did not say or imply that the actors are of a different type. I said that the categories are drawing a different marker line (i.e. Specific-Indian-Regional cinema) around them, which needs to be considered separately — the arguments for or against subcategorizing actors by whether they perform in Kannada or Telugu or Bollywood work are not the same as the arguments for or against subcategorizing actors by whether they work in film or television. Not because the actors are a different type, but because the category is grouping them in a significantly different way. Bearcat (talk) 18:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * So categorising by medium is too narrow, but categorising by medium+language/medium+region is fine? Very odd. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Not what I said either. Not "fine", just that they need to be considered as a separate batch from these because it's a completely different set of considerations that needs to be phrased and addressed very differently. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * @Bearcat, it doesn't look to me like a separate thing at all. You haven't identified any meaningful way in which there is, as you claim, a completely different set of considerations ... and have offered no rationale for zapping most of the higher level categories while you evaluate the lower ones.
 * And I still don't see any evidence to support your core assertion that child actors really don't "specialize" in one medium or the other, but almost always have both film and television roles in their filmographies.
 * So I'm going to form up my oppose. This whole proposal has too many flaws. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose I am not convinced that this category tree aids in navigation, but a deletion instead of a merger would leave many articles uncategorized. Dimadick (talk) 17:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It would leave few to no articles uncategorized, because very close to zero of these articles aren't already in the appropriate "target" categories as it is — and all it takes is a little bit of editor caution to catch those few exceptions, rather than a comprehensive merger that would require a followup round of DUPCAT cleanup. It's only necessary to specifically propose a merger if all of the categorized articles need to be comprehensively moved to the other category across the board, and not if 95 per cent of the articles are already categorized appropriately and need no replacement category at all, with only a very few exceptions that can easily be handled on their own. Bearcat (talk) 18:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * @Bearcat, as I am sure you know, a CFD such as this will (if passed) be implemented by bots ... so there is no opportunity for a little bit of editor caution to catch those few exceptions unless you specify manual deletion. Which you didn't. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete/upmerge all the ones not including the word 'film'. Category:Television child actors has hardly any content and the idea has not been developed. (I looked at several articles of the 30 odd articles involved; these did not need upmerging, being in a plethora of redundant categories.) I agree with BHG that eg should remain. Oculi (talk) 16:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In principle merge rather than delete. Medium is rarely a defining characteristic for actors/resses.  The first step should be to merge to parents that have no "by medium" split.  It may then be necessary to merge further.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:40, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Comedians from London, Ontario

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 01:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Comedians from London, Ontario to Category:Comedians from Ontario and Category:People from London, Ontario
 * Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization by location. This qualifies for neither of the exemptions there: the intersection of occupation with city of birth is not a defining characteristic of the comedy per se, and there is no comprehensive scheme of always subcategorizing Canadian comedians down to the individual city they come from -- categories like this exist only for Toronto and Vancouver, and are of questionable necessity even there, and not for any other Canadian city (and for comparison's sake, New York City is the only place in the entire United States that has its own "comedians from city" category either.) All of which means we would need considerably more than just two comedians from London to actually justify a category for them. Bearcat (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 June 22%23Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee

Category:Springs (mechanical)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus, also because the category page hasn't been tagged for CfD. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose eEnaming Category:Springs (mechanical) to A. Category:Springs (device) or B. Category:Springs (devices)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per C2D, consistency with main article's name
 * I nominated this category for a speedy rename in WP:CFDS to match the main article, Spring (device)‎. The underlying nomination wasn't controversial but it started a discussion with about whether the paranthetical disambiguation should be a singular "(device)" or a plural "(devices)". - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:31, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

−	−	−	−
 * Category:Springs (mechanical) to Category:Springs (device) — C2D per Spring (device)‎. (I wasn't certain if the parenthetical "device" should be plural.) RevelationDirect (talk) 18:15, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * That's a good question. I guess it comes down to whether this is a topic category about the topic of springs, a set category that contains examples of springs (technically, C2D would not apply), or a set-and-topic category. -- Black Falcon (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It's probably is a set-and-topic category, as it also contains articles like Hooke's law or Spring steel. Armbrust The Homunculus 18:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree it's both set and topic so I think that means we're going with "devices" Category:Springs (devices) as we discuss how to implement a speedy change. If this is controversial, I'm happy to move it to CFD (or maybe to Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion). RevelationDirect (talk) 00:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that would be best. -- Black Falcon (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted from CFD 2019 March 22 to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Lean Toward Option B, Favor Either Rename This is both a set and topic so I lean toward the parenthetical being plural. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 *  Weak keep; IMHO the current name works better than either of the proposed ways to match the main article. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Prefer B Of we have to have a change (of which I am not convinced), there should be number agreement. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. There are two other sub cats in this series with “(mechanical)”, so the cat as is follows the cat naming convention. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 02:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Good point, bearings and seals also have "(mechanical)", along with the parent Category:Hardware (mechanical). I'm sticking with "keep". – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:European disability organisations

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:European disability organizations. --  Amanda  (aka DQ) 10:46, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:European disability organisations to Category:Disability organisations based in Europe
 * Nominator's rationale: Per the categories under Category:Disability organizations by country. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose. These are organisations with a focus on disability policies across Europe.  Distinct from "Disability organisations based in Europe".  Rathfelder (talk) 15:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Rename but to Category:European disability organizations per everything in Category:Disability organizations. We already have Category:Disability organizations by country (using 'based in') for ones based somewhere specific. Oculi (talk) 16:11, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Support alt rename per Oculi, this is for organizations that are active across the whole of Europe. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kumkum Bhagya portal

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: category has already been deleted per WP:G6 (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 07:02, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting kumkum bhagya portal


 * Nominator's rationale: Delete per WP:SMALLCAT. Only one page in the cat. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment And now the category has been emptied. Liz Read! Talk! 03:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the page was deleted at MfD. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mint 400 Records album covers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. --  Amanda  (aka DQ) 10:44, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting mint 400 records album covers


 * Nominator's rationale: Absent-mindedly, I nominated Category:Album covers by label rather than this root category. The deletion result of the parent shows there’s no need for a “by label” categorization of album covers. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 14:38, 22 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment - The category contains album covers for label compilations (it did not at first). Without this, the image would be categorized with only "Album covers." - NorthPark1417 (talk) 15:17, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Query - since File:1967_album.jpg is the album cover for a Mint 400 Records album, what is the objection to categorising it as such? Oculi (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It just seem like a road that we wouldn't want to go down for every record label to group such disparate and otherwise unrelated album covers. What interest/point would there be to categorize File:Jingle_Bell_Jazz.png and File:Acdcironman.jpg in Category:Columbia Records album covers? At least when looking in Category:Melissa Etheridge album covers, someone might actually be interested in viewing the other covers by that artist. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 05:04, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted from CFD 2019 March 22 to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * For reference, the parent category was deleted per this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - we categorize by defining characteristics. "Album cover for Mint 400 Records Presents Nirvana In Utero" appears to be (1) an album cover; (2) Mint Records; (3) Nirvana. It would hardly be overcategorization to have 3 categories. Oculi (talk) 10:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Power stations in Lithuania by city

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete and merge. Delete Category:Power stations in Lithuania by city and merge the other categories. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 01:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Power stations in Lithuania by city
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Elektrėnai to Category:Buildings and structures in Elektrėnai
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Jonava to Category:Buildings and structures in Jonava
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Kaunas to Category:Buildings and structures in Kaunas
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Kėdainiai to Category:Buildings and structures in Kėdainiai
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Klaipėda to Category:Buildings and structures in Klaipėda
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Kruonis to Category:Buildings and structures in Kruonis
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Mažeikiai to Category:Buildings and structures in Mažeikiai
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Panevėžys to Category:Buildings and structures in Panevėžys
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Šiauliai to Category:Buildings and structures in Šiauliai
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Vilnius to Category:Buildings and structures in Vilnius
 * Propose merging Category:Power stations in Visaginas to Category:Buildings and structures in Visaginas
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, all categories contain only 1-3 articles. There is no second merge target Category:Power stations in Lithuania because these power stations are already in one of the "by-type" subcategories of it. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge per nominator....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Islamist insurgents

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. New nomination recommended. --  Amanda  (aka DQ) 10:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Islamist insurgents to Category:Islamists charged with terrorism
 * Nominator's rationale: We do not currently have a category for insurgents; this was recently discussed and then merged to Category:Rebels, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_January_13. The members of this category do not appear to be participants in an Insurgency, i.e. rebels who are not recognized as lawful combatants. Rather, they are Islamists who are regarded by others as having committed or supported terrorism. We do not categorise people directly as "terrorists" since that is a contentious label, but I suggest that this category might form a useful sub-category under Category:People charged with terrorism, and should be renamed accordingly. It would then need to be purged somewhat, e.g. I believe Roshonara Choudhry is more appropriately categorised in Category:Islamist criminals. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Support that. The term insurgents generally implies some sort of rebellion against your own government, and I dont think that is what is going on here. Rathfelder (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Having looked at a sample of articles, I think that present name fits many of the people. A few seem to be lone actors, who may better fit into Category:Islamist criminals and should be moved there, including Richard Reid, the shoe bomber.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep The people, especially in the subcat, have by no means all been charged, not least because many met violent deaths first. Johnbod (talk) 18:55, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Category seems to be redundant but if the category is deleted, some articles should be moved to an already existing category:
 * Masood Azhar	should be moved to Category:Leaders of Islamic terror groups
 * Shamil Basayev	is already in Category:Islamist mass murderers
 * The Beatles (terrorist cell)	is already in Category:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant members
 * Abdul Nacer Benbrika	should be moved to Category:Leaders of Islamic terror groups
 * Osama bin Laden	is already in Category:Leaders of Islamic terror groups
 * Roshonara Choudhry	is already in Category:Islamist criminals
 * Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti	is already in Category:Afghan al-Qaeda members
 * Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook	is already in Category:Hamas members
 * Sharif Mobley	does not seem to belong here
 * Tal'at Fu'ad Qasim	is already in Category:Leaders of Islamic terror groups
 * Richard Reid	should be moved to Category:Islamist criminals
 * Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar	is already in Category:Kashmiri militants
 * - Marcocapelle (talk) 16:50, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I have moved these articles per WP:SUBCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose any use of the word "terrorist/terrorism" per WP:TERRORIST. I agree that it would be nice to find a better word than "insurgent", but introducing the loaded term "terrorism" into the title is worse that the current title.
 * How about Category:Violent islamists? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, DannyS712 (talk) 02:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose The equivalent category for organizations is Category:Organizations designated as terrorist, which subdivides them by designating authority. The suggested new name does not clarify which state authority charged these people with terrorism. Dimadick (talk) 18:06, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The same criticism applies to most of Category:People charged with terrorism. – Fayenatic  L ondon
 * Comment: after purging by Marcocapelle as disclosed above, the category is now rather different, and comprises only Category:Islamist murderers, Category:Kashmiri militants and Category:Members of jihadist groups. Perhaps a fresh nomination for BrownHairedGirl's suggestion, Category:Violent islamists, would be the most useful option; does anybody else agree? – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:46, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough with me. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment -- The suggested name does not exactly work, because it depends on there being somebody (presumably a state authority) to lay a charge; also it would exclude those who died (e.g. by suicide) before arrest. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Bridges by city

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Scope is unclear, consensus is unclear, and a fresh nomination is recommended. --  Amanda  (aka DQ) 10:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Astana to Category:Buildings and structures in Astana
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Gdańsk‎ to Category:Buildings and structures in Gdańsk‎
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Incheon to Category:Buildings and structures in Incheon
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Lisbon to Category:Buildings and structures in Lisbon
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Maastricht to Category:Buildings and structures in Maastricht and Category:Bridges in Limburg (Netherlands)
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Nijmegen to Category:Buildings and structures in Nijmegen and Category:Bridges in Gelderland


 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Palermo to Category:Buildings and structures in Palermo
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Perth, Scotland‎‎ to Category:Buildings and structures in Perth, Scotland and Category:Bridges in Perth and Kinross
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Pisa to Category:Buildings and structures in Pisa and Category:Bridges in Tuscany
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Płock‎ to Category:Buildings and structures in Płock‎
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Puławy (city)‎ to Category:Buildings and structures in Puławy (city)‎ Category:Buildings and structures in Puławy‎
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Rio de Janeiro (city) to Category:Buildings and structures in Rio de Janeiro (city)
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in São Paulo to Category:Buildings and structures in São Paulo
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Semey to Category:Buildings and structures in Semey
 * Propose merging Category:Bridges in Verona to Category:Buildings and structures in Verona


 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, there are only 1 or 2 articles about bridges in these cities. A merge to "bridges in country" is not needed because all articles about bridges are already in a "type of bridge in country" category. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. WP:SMALLCAT does not apply to all categories which are currently small.  It is for cats which "by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme".
 * I don't see any of these categories fitting that definition. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:24, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:SMALLCAT provides two contradictory criteria, in the second line it says "no realistic potential for growth" which is in my view considerably more relaxing than "by their very definition". The "by their very definition" clause can nearly always be appealed to and if we would literally stick to it it would in practice imply that we would abolish WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle: are you saying that you have actually made an assessment of the "realistic potential for growth" of each of the nominated categories?
 * If you had done so, I would have expected such research to be mentioned in the nomination, rather than simply citing current size. But if you have done such an assessment, maybe you could explain how it was done. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:45, 12 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per BHG. These cats don't break SMALLCAT. E.g. nl.wp has articles about 10 bridges in Nijmegen. DexDor(talk) 07:46, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose !vote struck on the basis of Marco's comment of 14th Jan. DexDor(talk) 12:51, 5 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Support all In my judgement, it is unlikely that the current number of notable bridge articles will warrant such deep categorisation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * List of bridges by city
 * Nijmegen - 3 . Probability of additional bridges = 0.0001
 * Feel free to add more. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:54, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Laurel Lodged, can you explain your math? DexDor(talk) 17:04, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Jokes cease to be funny when you have to explain them. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The additional bridges in Nijmegen on nl.wp are either not sourced at all, or sourced by a list of a 'Bridges Association' (the latter is my own translation). I cannot imagine they would qualify as notable on en.wp. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:33, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support I assume the vast majority of bridges are non-notable. It's hard to demonstrate non-notability for non-existent articles but I don't think that's the level of proof needed to remove categories that aren't helpful to readers (at least yet). RevelationDirect (talk) 02:52, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose . Wikiproject:Bridges#Categorization recommends that bridge articles be categorized by location, starting with country and breaking into smaller divisions when the lists are large enough. The parent (and subcategories) Category:Buildings and structures is not under Wikiproject Bridges and this proposal could potentially remove them from bridge categories. Just, WP:BEBOLD and fix the articles individually. But please, make sure they stay in a bridge category that includes a location. I already fixed John Paul II Bridge, Puławy, as my editing today of that article brought me here. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 21:53, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The link is WikiProject Bridges and Tunnels. Emptying a category out of process (as you did) is generally considered a bad thing, but in this case (just one article, no linked category on Polish wp) was (IMO) reasonable (although I'm not sure about word "fix" in edit summary); it avoids the cost of a CFD and (when done by a competent editor) is less likely to break things than a CFD. DexDor(talk) 08:01, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I still oppose the wholesale re-cat of articles in bridge-related subcategories to architecture-related subcategories. (An administrator in this discussion might take this as a hint to notify some applicable wikiprojects.) I have written a handful of bridge articles from scratch and tried to categorize them, so I try to understand which wikiprojects might be interested (bridges, architecture, geography, culture, etc) and categorize (and label on talk pages) accordingly. If you have a link to a discussion or guideline of why you called my category edit a bad thing, I would be glad to read it and try to improve my WP editing, intermittent as it might be. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * A good way for a project to keep on eye on deletions in their area is Article alerts (at least one of these categories is tagged for the bridges project). "out of process deletions" come up in discussions from time to time (e.g. Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Archive_17), but guidelines don't say much about it (there's the rather obscure Categories_for_discussion/Speedy). DexDor(talk) 17:20, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, but be careful to ensure bridges remain in bridge categories, dual merging as needed. This probably will mean individual attention to each article., would you endorse such a manual upmerge where we ensure they remain in the "Bridges" category tree? (On the topic of whether these meet SMALLCAT: I note that the opposition has not made any assessment that there is reasonable potential for growth. Less than five notable bridges is the case for almost all cities, which is why I don't expect a reasonable potential for growth. I consider arguments to the contrary to be very weak unless there are specific examples of notable bridges that the opposition cares to bring forth.) ~ Rob 13 Talk 03:39, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Support a dual merge. Changing my outcome recommendation per suggestion of User:BU Rob13. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 00:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Manual merge to more parent categories where required. E.g. the one bridge within Category:Bridges in Lisbon is already in other bridge categories for Portugal, so no merge is needed for the bridge hierarchy, but it is not in any other Lisbon categories, so it should go into the parent category:Transport in Lisbon. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Procedural comment, request for closure of the discussion posted on the administrators noticeboard. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose Bridges are considerably different from buildings in general. Even if SMALLCAT would otherwise apply (many cities still have only a handful of notable bridges), the extra specificity this would give for navigation from largers cats of Bridges by country / by region would still be worthwhile. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the following, which other language wikis show to have significant space for growth:
 * Incheon (13 articles, 6 of which are substantial articles on ko.wiki, ko:분류:인천광역시의 다리)
 * Gdansk (11 articles, 6 of which are substantial articles on pl.wiki, pl:Kategoria:Mosty_w_Gdańsku)
 * Nijmegen (10 articles, 7 of which are substantial articles on de or nl.wiki nl:Categorie:Brug_in_Nijmegen )
 * Pisa (10 articles + an article on Bridges of Pisa, 5 of which are substantial articles on it.wiki, it:Categoria:Ponti di Pisa
 * Sao Paolo (19 articles and 2 subcats on pt.wiki, pt:Categoria:Pontes_da_cidade_de_São_Paulo - and a glance at a map shows there are clearly hundreds of bridges in the city)
 * Verona (15 articles, of which are 10 substantial articles on it.wiki, it:Categoria:Ponti di Verona)
 * Support for the others. Furius (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Basically no consensus after almost 3 months, hopefully some more discussion will yield a result

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, DannyS712 (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Furius, I'm happy to go along with your selective approach (provided other parents are considered), but re Nijmegen did you notice what Marcocapelle wrote above, dated 14 January? – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:54, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I did see it, yes. I don't read Dutch as Marcocapelle does, but I can see that the Dutch articles are generally pretty poor. However, the German versions of the same are often substantially better sourced so I don't think that the presumption of non-notability holds. I don't think that de:Nieuwe Hezelpoort, nl:De Oversteek (brug), de:Snelbinder could really be challenged if translated (with the two articles already in the category, that would bring us up to 5 articles, cf. Category:Bridges in Sheffield). The fact that the other articles aren't so good doesn't make it obvious to me that there's no possbility of notability. In other words, I'm more optimistic about the potential for growth. Furius (talk) 23:30, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Furius. IMHO your research beats Laurel Lodged's map-reading. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:51, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Well this is a new thing. Is going down the path of snippiness so favoured by other admins? I hope not. Regarding my map-reading, my post above counted 3 bridges over the Waal in the city of Nijmegen. Though not named, they are the Waalbrug, the Nijmegen railway bridge and the Oversteek. Editor  above mentions the last named, the Oversteek, so that was included in my count. He also mentions the Snelbinder which is not actually a distinct bridge in itself but rather a paved section of the Waalbrug, already counted. Lastly he mentions the Nieuwe Hezelpoort which is an inland railway bridge in the city (i.e. it does not cross the Waal). It's hard to believe that a perfectly ordinary railway bridge is worthy of an article, but let's assume for the sake of the argument that it does. So that brings the count to 4; still not meeting the threshold. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Alternative merge -- If this goes ahead there need to be further merge targets. I looked at the Lisbon case, whose parent is "Portugal by city", the sibling category being Porto with 6 bridges.  The parent for Portugal has a lot of bridges, but it is not clear where they are.  My suggestion is not to abolish the categories but to have county/provincial categories, which might get enough population to be worthwhile.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:54, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree about additional merge targets, and some can be found by checking the existing parent categories, such as Category:Transport in Lisbon in this case, as I suggested above. There is Category:Bridges in Portugal by district, which has 3 sub-cats at present; as for Lisbon District Category:Buildings and structures in Lisbon District & sub-cats have at least three bridge articles. At a higher level it would be possible to start categories for bridges by region in Portugal, cf. Category:Bridges in England which is split by county, but there is as yet nothing similar by type within Category:Buildings and structures in Portugal by region. (Portugal also doesn't yet have a national category within Category:Transport buildings and structures by country.) – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 11:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:PERFCAT and WP:OVERLAPCAT
 * Williams was a major manufacturer of classic physical pinball machines in the 1970s and 1980s and all of those models are categorized in Category:Williams pinball machines. In 2011, an electronic video game came out that allowed you to play simulations of those old time pinball machines on the Wii and PlayStation game consoles. This is not a museum or an award. Rather, the pinball machine models that appeared in Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection are what make up this category which doesn't seem defining. The contents of this category are already listified here in the main article. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:19, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Bondegezou (talk) 11:31, 20 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:National Fastpitch Coaches Association Hall of Fame inductees
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 01:11, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:National Fastpitch Coaches Association Hall of Fame inductees
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD (WP:NONDEFINING)
 * Each year, the National Fastpitch Coaches Association Hall of Fame gives out 8 diffrent awards and this is one of them. As far as I can tell, there is no associated brick and mortar museum. The large majority of articles just make a passing reference in a list of honours in the body or the infobox. (A handful mention it in the lede but mostly from a single editor.) All of these articles are already well categorized in the specific school subcategories of the Category:College softball coaches in the United States tree. This award just doesn't seem defining. The contents of this category are already listified both here within the main article and in this template. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:18, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Background We deleted a similar college volleyball coaches hall of fame here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:18, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * DElete -- a typical OCAWARD case. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.