Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 August 20



Category:History of Catholicism in Europe

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not rename. MER-C 16:29, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in Europe to Category:History of the Catholic Church in Europe
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in Africa to Category:History of the Catholic Church in Africa
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in Asia to Category:History of the Catholic Church in Asia
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in North America to Category:History of the Catholic Church in North America
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in South America to Category:History of the Catholic Church in South America
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C: parent category Category:History of the Catholic Church by continent, as emphasised by Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_October_24 in accordance with WP:C2C: History of the Catholic Church (with inlink History of Catholicism, ultimately per Catholic Church with inlink Catholicism). Please note that anyone is free to create other categories such as those related to Category:Anglo-Catholicism and Category:Independent Catholicism, but this regards top Category:Catholic Church as illustrated above. In other words, as noted, feel free to recreate the would-be preexisting categories if you know of entries to fill them up with that could not be diffused to aimed renamed destination categories? However, objections to the nomination are to be regarded as constructive to the extent that they provide arguments for no raison d'être for Category:History of the Catholic Church formula category tree at all. Following opposed speedy. PPEMES (talk) 21:12, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose - per parent Category:Catholicism in Europe. I must say that the changes made by Chicbyaccident and their alter ego PPEMES have made a complete dog's dinner of this category tree (that is, to equate Roman Catholicism with Catholicism, and then to change Catholicism to (Roman) Catholic Church, despite repeated arguments that 'Catholicism' is a (much) wider term than 'Catholic Church'). Oculi (talk) 21:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I haven't done such an equation. I have a hard time recalling one instance when such a sequence occured. Perhaps you're thinking of the determining main article for such assertions, Catholicism? Ultimately, I guess I could see arguments for why Catholic Church should be named Catholicism instead. Until, though, shouldn't the category tree pursue coherence with the article realm if not for exceptionate reasons? Accordingly, I agree though that there are still a couple of branches relevant to the topic that are still a bit odd-looking. PPEMES (talk) 22:20, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose, we have had this discussion numerous times before. For example, Persecution of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia is about political history of Catholicism, not about history of the Catholic Church as an institute (even while the pope did not object). Marcocapelle (talk) 06:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Good that you brought about a concrete example. While I suppose a discussion on this would better be located at Catholic Church in Croatia, since the implication seems to be a freestanding deviation in the category tree from Catholicism and Catholicism in Croatia redirects, I don't know where to address it but here. There's two ways I can think of interpretating your comment: 1) Are you saying that Catholics involved in crimes against humanity in Croatia suddenly were part of history of political Catholicism but not part of the Catholic Church in Croatia when committing those crimes? Where do I read about the history of crimes against humanity-embracing political Catholicism - with WP:COMMONNAME Catholicism - and its members and clergy that has nothing to do with the History of the Catholic Church? 2) Are you saying that most or all of the contents of this category tree regards Political Catholicism (with common name Catholicism, despite redirecting to Catholic Church and politics)? If so, how about the remaining supposed minority entries that unambiguously pertain to "Catholic Church in X"? Do you intend to create that corresponding tree for that or do you expect someone else to do that? Again, if you want to rename Catholic Church to Catholicism or Catholic Church and politics to Catholicism, most of my said questions would be mute. The thing is, I don't see any rename requests there. Until, it's the parallell category universe that confuses me. PPEMES (talk) 09:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This concerned an initiative of the Croatian political leaders, not of the Catholic Church. It belongs in Category:History of Catholicism in Croatia, not in Category:Catholic Church in Croatia. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:00, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok. Do you have any argument for that taxonomy that invalidates my concerns? Notwithstanding, the categories above regards many more entries than that, many for which diffusion has been delayed for years, because none seems to care to create a diffused "Catholic Church" category tree. Hence my nomination. PPEMES (talk) 16:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * A "history of the Catholic Church" category tree does not need that much geographical diffusion. At a local or country level the distinction between Catholicism and Catholic Church may well become blurry. Take the Cristero War in Mexico, which is most certainly about Catholicism, of which a bit about the Catholic Church and mostly about lay organizations of Catholics. Sticking to the broader term Catholicism is more suitable here as well. On the other hand it makes perfect sense to diffuse Category:History of the Catholic Church (as an organisation) by its subordinate organisations, e.g. History of the Holy See and Jesuit history. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * So why is there no Catholicism article, including on different countries, including on history in different countries? PPEMES (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * For the record, this is one of the previous discussions about the same topic and exchanging roughly the same arguments. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:55, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, I agree. I don't you know, don't you some central location to discuss this, as I have proposed, could help us? PPEMES (talk) 14:57, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * CFD is the central location. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose  The Catholic Church is a relatively minor topic in comparison to Catholicity and the history of Catholic-affiliated populations across the continent. Dimadick (talk) 10:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I just checked the nomenclature. Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Are you saying that they should be renamed to History of Catholicity in Europe etc.? PPEMES (talk)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ron Jeremy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting ron jeremy


 * Nominator's rationale: There may be some legitimate entries for this category but this is basically a WP:PERFCAT. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 19:06, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. This is a "production by performers' performances" category expressly specified in the overcategorization guideline. Cast members, even starring or "iconic" ones, are not defining features of the articles in this category. Without the films, only the actor, his filmography and maybe a documentary about him are left. • Gene93k (talk) 05:39, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:PERFCAT. Bearcat (talk) 17:20, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Railway stations served by East Midlands Trains

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 16:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Railway stations served by East Midlands Trains to Category:Railway stations served by East Midlands Railway
 * Nominator's rationale: East Midlands Trains became a defunct train operating company on 18 August 2019 and the franchise has been handed over to East Midlands Railway. East Midlands Railway is the new franchise that serves all the stations in this category. Pkbwcgs (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Procedural comment, I copied the below comments from 4 days earlier. The nominator of that discussion had apparently not tagged the category page. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:30, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Railway stations served by East Midlands Trains to Category:Railway stations served by East Midlands Railway
 * Nominator's rationale: East Midlands Trains franchise will be superseded by East Midlands Railway on 18 August, all stations currently operated by EMT will transfer to EMR plus a couple more on the Barton line that can be added manually. Precedent is to rename a category when a UK rail franchise changes hands, e.g. Railway stations served by Virgin Trains East Coast was renamed Railway stations served by London North Eastern Railway. Kreistoul (talk) 10:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. But at the same time I wonder if it sensible to have a tree of categories that change their name every few years. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Franchise names are now specified in franchise contracts and in future will transfer seamlessly to new operators, e.g. the ScotRail brand was retained when that franchise transferred from First to Abellio. So this renaming should be the last for this franchise. Kenilworcig (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support/Delete. Categories should be for permanent characteristics (or at least more permanent characteristics than this) and a station may exist for hundreds of years. Many stations (e.g. Liverpool Lime Street railway station) are in 5-6 of these categories. It would be better to categorize by railway lines than by TOCs. E.g. "Stations on the Bristol–Exeter line". DexDor(talk) 06:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. I originally created this category (and others like it) back in 2008 and still think it is a meaningful way of categorising articles. --RFBailey (talk) 01:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Extant Essex schooners

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Extant Essex schooners to Category:Essex Schooners
 * Nominator's rationale: Better to do it the other way around, and categorise defunct ships if the distiction is important. Rathfelder (talk) 07:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:25, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - I expect there is some standard way of categorising defunct things, but can't locate any scheme. Oculi (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It is Category:Former entities. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:12, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Extant firearms manufacturers in the United Kingdom

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Extant firearms manufacturers in the United Kingdom to Category:Firearm manufacturers of the United Kingdom
 * Nominator's rationale: Almost all the other "Extant" categories are archaeological. This doesnt seem the right way of dealing with the issue.  Lots of categories for defunct organizations, but an extant category is inherently unstable. Rathfelder (talk) 07:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support - this is a 'current' category, routinely upmerged. It's the non-extant ones which should go in Category:Defunct manufacturing companies of the United Kingdom, probably in the subcat Category:Defunct firearms manufacturers in the United Kingdom (or 'of'). Oculi (talk) 16:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - I created the category and I'm fine with it. Go right ahead. Bananabananabanana (talk) 04:11, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.