Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 August 30



Category:Arminian Christians

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. MER-C 08:21, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting arminian christians


 * Propose deleting arminian ministers


 * Propose deleting arminian theologians


 * Nominator's rationale: This is a recently created category, presumably to complement Category:Calvinist and Reformed Christians. The problem is, almost all of these are unsourced and so there are lots of BLP violations. Delete with all subcats. StAnselm (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2019 (UTC)


 * If a category tag has really no source in the article, the best way is certainly to revert the tagging, rather than deleting the category itself. Telikalive (talk) 20:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Two issues - one was that I didn't particularly want to do fifty reversions. But the other is that it is ambiguous what it means anyway - the word is used differently with respect to 17th century people (who are correctly categorised in Category:Remonstrants) and 21st-century people. StAnselm (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Procedural comment, neither of the two subcategories have been tagged. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Fixed. StAnselm (talk) 18:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * User:Telikalive makes a fair point. Besides, if these categories are not kept, the articles should be recategorized to stay in the Protestant religious leaders tree or in the Protestant theologians tree respectively. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Rename (changed from Delete) - with all subcats. However if these can be properly supported as relating to national heritage (i.e. from Armenia).] or alternatively of clearly supportable allegiance to "Armenian theology" then something could be done with them - but the naming and supporting articles would be to be included and no ambiguity remain. :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  09:00, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a big misunderstanding. The categories are about Arminianism, not about Armenia. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:12, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point - this should be obvious from the name of the category "Armenian Christians" is - to most people - going to the listing those Christians from Armenia. Very badly thoughtout category naming, scheme and with no reference articles indicated to give explanation. :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  14:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * An ambiguous name is not a reason for deletion. I have added a link to Arminianism on the category page. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:02, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay I admit delete was too harsh - The categories should be renamed too to enable the naming to reflect the seemed intention of the category group - something that included either the term 'Armenianism' or 'Armenianist' perhaps - Armenian Christians is just so naturally 'Christians from/of Armenia. :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  09:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Please note that we are talking about Arminian Christians, not Armenian. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Wonderfully confusing isn't it! :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  08:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Source what has to be sourced, revert tags on articles that are not sourced enough - I mentioned the quotes supporting "arminianism" for the people listed here : Category talk:Arminian Christians. Then, an assessment of the source present inside the article can be done and monitored. -Telikalive (talk) 11:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you mention in the last column of the table Category talk:Arminian Christians the articles that are critically not sourced enough ? Then I can manage to revert the tagging or source better the articles. thank you. Telikalive (talk) 12:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Just looking at your table, the first entry with a quote is Adam Clarke, of whom the article says "preferring instead the Wesleyan-Arminian positions regarding predestination..." But that;s because he was a Methodist, and is appropriately categorised under Category:Methodist theologians. StAnselm (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * completely agree with you on that fact. But the purpose of the list is to list those who hold to arminianism whatever the denomination. For instance : There are people who hold to arminian doctrine within the methodists... and there are people who hold to a calvinist doctrine within the methodists. (this is because of Methodism historical development)--- Telikalive (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , I just suppressed the tag denomination in the 2 categories that I'm supporting. I hope it makes more sense now. Again the need is to provide a information related to people doctrine, not denomination. Arminianism is an inter-denominational doctrine, as well as calvinism. Category:Arminianism already mentions correctly the denominations that partially hold to "arminianism", no need to add denominational information here. There is a need to classify the protestant ministers and theologians not only by century, denomination, or nationality (as done Category:Protestant_theologians and Category:Protestant religious leaders where I would place actually the 2 "arminian cat.") but also by doctrine. This information is not less relevant than the 3 others, for instance I found on a calvinist forum, this question : "| who are some of the big names Arminians?. The relevant answer is a list of people, not a list of denominations who lean to arminianism. - Telikalive (talk) 08:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge At least one of the subcategories is under "denominations", which is incorrect: This is a theological position not a denomination, though it may be written into the basis of some denominations. The two subcats look rather similar to me.  I wonder if we might not merge the lot to arminians, with a headnote explaining what it is.  It is named after a man called Arminius, a proponent of the theological view.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That is an interesting comment because the adherents of the corresponding denomination are usually called Remonstrants. And guess what? There is also a Category:Remonstrants! So Category:Arminian Christians and Category:Remonstrants should be merged together. So I have made this a subcategory of Category:Arminian Christians. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:34, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge is not necessary, see discussion below. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * However, note that "Remonstrants" is usually used only of 17th-century people (though there is a surviving denomination in the Netherlands). StAnselm (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Right, for example Christa Anbeek is a 1961-born Remonstrant theologian. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , That's the point : Arminianism is a doctrine, that is mainly present in methodists, baptists, and pentecostals. However there is an historical denomination called the Remonstrants. This community the mainly present in Holland (and count 10000 people). So Remonstrants (but clearly not all) have an arminian doctrine. On the other hand pentecostal have (but clearly not all) an arminian doctrine. But pentecostal are not Remonstrants!!! --- Telikalive (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The article Arminianism does not mention anything about Pentecostalism though. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * On the Pentecostalism article you will find this sentence : "Classical Pentecostal soteriology is generally Arminian rather than Calvinist". This is basically what I'm saying. Besides, the arminianism article says : "Faiths leaning at least in part in the Arminian direction include [...] Charismatics", Pentecostalism is included here. If you want more detail abouts the doctrinal points themselves just go on the article of the 5th point of the arminian doctrine : 5th point denominations. There is a list here of denominations who agree with this point (apostasy and conditional perseverance), beyond protestantism, but also within protestantism. And among them you will find Pentecostalism. (there, see  Note 193) -- Telikalive (talk) 07:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok I have struck my merge vote. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Upmerge to Category:Protestants. This may have a place for the theologians, but no one else, but we do not have to categorize by everything possible.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:28, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 17:03, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * While I am re-reading this discussion and keeping in mind the existance of Category:Remonstrants, I am no longer opposing the proposal, as it subjective to classify someone as Arminian when there is not a formal membership. A merge to Category:Protestant religious leaders and Category:Protestant theologians should be done manually because many articles in the nominated categories are already in some subcategory of those targets. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * As already said, Arminianism (as well as Calvinism,...) is a trans-denominational doctrine. Saying that there is no identified denomination that is 100% Arminian as a justification for not categorizing the (notable) Arminian Christians part of it, would imply for example, that all the (notable) Calvinist Christians, that are not in a 100% Calvinist denomination would have to be merged into Category:Protestant religious leaders and Category:Protestant theologians. I take the example of the Baptist theologian John Piper who is listed in several "calvinist" categories. With the above logic, all those "calvinist" categories should be merged into "protestant" categories. (knowing that baptists are mainly divided into arminians and calvinists). If this logic leads to a loss of information, why people like the baptist theologian Roger Olson would not have the same "legitimacy" to be listed in "arminian" categories?Telikalive (talk) 16:21, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Since John Piper (theologian) can be included in Category:Reformed Baptists, why would he need to be in other Calvinist categories? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Further comment -- now leaning towards Keep -- The Calvinist/Arminian divide is one of the great theological splits in Protestantism. Clearly the Remonstrants belong here, but the ultimate problem is that this is about a Point of View that people hold, which may be difficult to pin down.  In UK the present Baptist Church (for example) resulted from an amalgamation between (Calvinist) Particular Baptists and (Arminian) General Baptists.  Methodists are traditionally Arminian; Pentecostals commonly are, but not necessarily.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep and add mentions within the articles where needed. I think user:Telikalive is working on this. – Fayenatic  L ondon 03:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per Fayenatic london's suggestion that additional information can be added to the relevant articles. Dimadick (talk) 09:48, 7 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Climate change science
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 15%23Category:Climate change science

Category:Convoys (Transformers)
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 15%23Category:Convoys (Transformers)

Category:Central Division (NBL Canada) championship seasons

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 13:48, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting central division (nbl canada) championship seasons


 * Nominator's rationale: Completely redundant to Category:NBL Canada championship seasons (per WP:OVERLAPCAT). Even if they didn't overlap completely, there is no strong reason to subdivide champion seasons into two divisions. BL<b style="color: #0096FF">A</b>IXX 15:46, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. SportsGuy789 (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Spy Changers
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 15%23Category:Spy Changers

Category:Transformers Alternators
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 20%23Category:Transformers Alternators

Category:Headmasters (Transformers)
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 20%23Category:Headmasters (Transformers)

Category:Cyberjets
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 20%23Category:Cyberjets

Category:Transformers deities
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 14%23Category:Transformers deities

Category:Irish emigrants (before 1923)
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not merge. MER-C 09:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting irish emigrants (before 1923) (container category)
 * Propose merging irish emigrants to australia (before 1923) to irish emigrants to australia
 * Propose merging irish emigrants to canada (before 1923) to irish emigrants to canada
 * Propose merging irish emigrants to new zealand (before 1923) to irish emigrants to new zealand
 * Propose merging irish emigrants to the united states (before 1923) to irish emigrants to the united states


 * Nominator's rationale: No obvious rationale as to why we would start classifying immigrants by year of arrival. Not sure where 1923 comes into it either. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge to Category:Irish emigrants to Australia, there is no reason for plain deletion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * At the time of nomination the category was unpopulated, so deletion would have been appropriate. Since then the category creator has populated the category and removed the existing "Irish emigrants to XYZ" category, so a merger is now necessary. I've updated the description. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 03:01, 31 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Before 1923 Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and was a unified unit. Thus the Northern Ireland category only exists after that year. It also changes the connection to the United Kimgdom of those emigranting. After that date it was a split unit. This is a logical break of sections and exists in other cases such as Categroy:Irish emigrants to the United States (before 1923. There is clearly no reason to remove this category in isolation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * User:Johnpacklambert 1923 doesn't match up with any significant date in Irish history that I'm aware of - see 1923 in Ireland. Ireland gained home rule in 1920 and the Irish Free State was created in 1922. I wasn't aware that you had created other categories as you only created Category:Irish emigrants (before 1923) after this nomination. I've added the other categories to this nomination and the container category as well. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 03:01, 31 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment immigrants are often categorized by year of arrival. See for example Category:German emigrants to Mandatory Palestine.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This is an incorrect analogy. Australia and the United States did not have a change of regime and name in 1922/23. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment Additionally Category:Irish emigrants to the United Kingdom is the description explicitly limits the category to people who emigrated after 1923, since before that it was not a trans-national move, or not to the United Kingdom if pre 1801.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:45, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You added that description yourself. Again, I'm not sure where 1923 comes from. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 03:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)


 * 7 years ago. The way this is written here it makes it seem like I did so recently. Clearly movement within unified political areas and movement across political boundaries are two very different things. People who moved from Thesalonika to Istanbul in 1856 are not Greek emigrants to Turkey, and people who did so in 1936 are Greek emigrants to Turkey. People who moved from Delhi to Karachi in 1940 are not Indian emigrants to Pakistan, those who did so in 1960 are. So there is a huge amount of evidence that year of movement does matter. What year we should use in the Irish situation is a seperate issue, but clearly some year in the early 1920s is what works.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:28, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I think the theory is that since 1922 was when the Irish Free State was formed, people leaving throughout that year still fall under the old system, while 1923 inagurates the new system. I may have added the description to the United Kingdom category, but I was not the person who started this set of categories as far as I can tell. Maybe they should be (before 1922) and not (before 1923). I am ok with such a rename. What is clear is that Category:Northern Ireland emigrants to Australia for example should not lump people leaving in 1856 into the category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:23, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment per Irish Free State the Irish Free State was created on December 6, 1922. I assume who ever started this schema figured that is close enough to the start of 1923 that before 1923 was a close enough aproximation, since most people who arrived in Australia in by Dec. 31, 1922 had left Ireland by the 6th of December, what with such being less than 1/12th of the year added that since they would be almost certainly going by boat (maybe some by train to), it could take several days. Before 1923 means they have arrived in the country of destination when 1923 started, so this is much closer to the start of the Irish Free State than before 1922 would be. I guess there is no particular problem with renaming all to Category:Irish emigrants to Australia (before 6 Dec. 1922) etc, but I am not sure we need to be that technically precise.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:34, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It is either one of two: either we do not allow Irish people categories to contain articles about the period of 1801 to 1922 - or we do allow them. And if we do, there is no need for a break. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * No, life is always more tricky than that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:09, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In principle Keep -- The issue of those who left between 6 & 31 December can be covered in a headnote. "Before 1923" is sufficiently accurate for a category name, which are better for being short.  Northern Ireland before that period is also an anachronistic concept.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:47, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep with a hat note to explain the convenient, though slightly inaccurate, date. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:22, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-European and anti-white slurs
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. MER-C 09:10, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting anti-european and anti-white slurs


 * Nominator's rationale: Confusing - does it mean slurs that are either anti-European or anti-white (and if so we don't need it) or that are both, and if so, does it mean not anti-Europeans who are not considered 'white'? Doug Weller  talk 09:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose, if it is confusing (which I am not even certain of) we should rename the category, not delete it. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep I have to admit that Gringo is a bit troublesome, because it is applied by the Mexican people who have complex ethnic and racial origins. However if there is a problem with this category it has to do with parent categories and not this one in isolation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:51, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose deletion as it would remove articles from a relevant category tree. Maybe rename or upmerge. DexDor(talk) 18:53, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose deletion because it would break the category tree. Perhaps it should be split to Category:Anti-European slurs and Category:Anti-white slurs. Dimadick (talk) 10:03, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep'. HRKent444 (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.