Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 20



Category:Greyhawk organizations

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 04:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting greyhawk organizations


 * Nominator's rationale: Very few articles, most of which are now up for deletion. There simply aren't many, if any, real-world notable organisations in the Dungeons & Dragons setting of Greyhawk. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * If not kept, merge to parent categories, instead of plain delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:54, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Modification of earlier comment: merge to Category:Fictional organizations and add the Circle of eight article to Category:Greyhawk. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Category:Rugby union coaches by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not merge. MER-C 03:12, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Rugby union coaches by country to Category:Rugby union coaches by nationality‎
 * Nominator's rationale: The nationality tree is much better populated. No indication that there is intended to be a distinction between nationality and country. Rathfelder (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Rugby union coaches in Ireland to Category:Irish rugby union coaches‎
 * Nominator's rationale: Rathfelder (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Rugby union coaches in England to Category:English rugby union coaches‎
 * Nominator's rationale: Rathfelder (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Rugby union coaches in South Africa to Category:South African rugby union coaches‎
 * Nominator's rationale: Part of the sparsely populated heirarchy Category:Rugby union coaches by country. The only actual article is about a coach who appears to be a South African citizen. Rathfelder (talk) 18:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose all- many rugby coaches in England are not English. Of course there is an indication that it is 'by country' because we have Category:Rugby union coaches in England by club. Eddie Jones is a rugby union coach in England. Warren Gatland is one in Wales. Oculi (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose all - These are for coaches based in particularly countries, not those who are from particular countries. – PeeJay 21:59, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above. Just because someone coaches in one particular category doesn't men they are of that nationality. A New Zealand friend of mine is currently coaching cricket in India - that doesn't make him Indian. Grutness... wha?   03:34, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose all for reasons outlined above. Coaches can be based in one country while having the nationality of another. How hard is that to explain. Ridiculous nomination. Had similar issue a few years back with rugby union referees. Djln Djln (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose -- Once upon a time coaches were always of the home nation. This is no longer the case, so that by country (of operation) and from country (of origin) are both needed.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * In that case we should reverse merge all the nationality categories, or split them. Many articles say nothing about the nationality status of the subject. Do we want two sets of categories, one listing them by nationality and the other by the country in which they operate - and presumably some will move from one country to another? Rathfelder (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * We only have Category:Rugby union players by country, and Category:Rugby union people by country not by nationality. Why do we need two trees for coaches? There are a lot less of them.  Two trees is not workable.  Nationality is rarely established in the articles.  It's mostly guess work. Rathfelder (talk) 22:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:From First to Last songs

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 03:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting from first to last songs


 * Nominator's rationale: The band has no notable songs to warrant a category at this time. All categorized pages are redirects. Jalen Folf   (talk)  18:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Agree with nominator. A category full of redirects to targets which offer nothing more than being included on an album's track listing doesn't help readers. I'm not necessarily against the redirects themselves. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 22:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Philosophers by position

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 03:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Philosophers by position to Category:Philosophers
 * Nominator's rationale: Only content is Category:Presidents of the Aristotelian Society Rathfelder (talk) 17:30, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:20, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Continuous journals

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not merge. MER-C 03:13, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Continuous journals to Category:Open access journals
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, based on the descriptions in the articles it appears that "open access scientific journals" is the usual term for this type of journals. We already have Category:Open access journals for that. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:27, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * pinging contributors to this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * oppose Continuous journals refer to journal where articles are published immediately upon acceptance in their final form. The majority of those will certainly be open access, however they are distinct concepts and not all continuous journals are open access. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:49, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I haven't come across continuous journals that weren't an open access journal. Also the journals in this category are not portrayed as a continuous journal but as an open-access journal (see WP:DEFINING). Marcocapelle (talk) 15:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * They still aren't the same things, and if you want non-open access journals that are continuous, see Environmental Science & Technology Letters. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I think people are over excited about the frequency of publication. For online stuff it doesnt seem very defining. Rathfelder (talk) 16:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * oppose these are distinct concepts. You may propose deleting all of Category:Academic journals by publication frequency, though. fgnievinski (talk) 16:50, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Headbomb's counterexample above. Not the same thing - one is payment/nonpayment, one is publication pattern. Pam  D  18:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Scout Activity Centres by Country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 03:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Scout Activity Centres by Country to Category:Scout Activity Centres by country
 * Nominator's rationale: Correct categorization of "Country". It may be appropriate to also decapitalise "Scout Centres" - if so then the subcats should also be renamed. DexDor(talk) 12:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. I'm equally uncertain about the capitals in "Scout Activity Centre". Marcocapelle (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bridges over the Kharkiv River
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 28%23Category:Bridges over the Kharkiv River

Category:Transformers: Prime characters

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 04:13, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting transformers


 * Nominator's rationale: The franchise characters have been reduced from over 400 to under twenty, so listing characters by franchise is pointless. The character list should be upmerged, but the other characters are covered elsewhere in the category structure. TTN (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Question, by having so many nominations simultaneously, don't we run the risk to remove articles from the Transformers hierarchy entirely? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:13, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, most of these categories were doubled and tripled up over time. The only categories that matter are the ones nominated up above to merge into the parent category, Autobots and Decepticons. Every article in the series was covered under the due to them being the primary means of categorization. TTN (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * With the rate these deletions are going, we won't have a Transformers hierarchy for long. J I P  &#124; Talk 10:13, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge to Category:Transformers robot characters, since that category has not been nominated yet. (Otherwise merge to Category:Transformers characters). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 07:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Action Masters

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 04:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting action masters


 * Propose deleting primes (transformers)


 * Propose deleting pretenders (transformers)


 * Nominator's rationale: Overly specific in-universe fictional designation that doesn't matter to the general reader. All characters are covered elsewhere in the category structure. TTN (talk) 20:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Question, by having so many nominations simultaneously, don't we run the risk to remove articles from the Transformers hierarchy entirely? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess the answer to this question has been given in the discussion further below on this page. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I have taken the liberty to merge the three nominations with a so far identical discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:18, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Transformers robot characters, since that category has not been nominated yet. (Otherwise merge to Category:Transformers characters). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 07:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Decepticons
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 29%23Category:Decepticons

Category:Censored works by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 03:16, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Censored works by country to Category:Censored works
 * Nominator's rationale: Contains just 1 subcat. which is already in Category:Censorship in China‎ Rathfelder (talk) 20:30, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Plenty of potential for growth, China is hardly the only country with works banned or censored. In fact virtually every country qualifies, see Category:Censorship by country. We will get more 'works banned in country x'. Note that banning is the extreme version of censorship, some works are censored (modified), and some are banned. Perhaps this could be renamed, to Category:Banned works by country or such, the point is that plenty of categories that are named Category:Works banned in Foo country should be created, and we need a container category for them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - On the one hand, I am sympathetic to Piotrus' remarks. On the other hand, I am a bit concerned about the possibility that there may be works that have been banned by multiple countries, which would result in additional category clutter. However, if that proved to be the case we could always revisit this issue and trade in the categories for a set of lists. Anomalous+0 (talk) 13:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of works which have been censored in various places and at various times. But being censored in a particular country is generally not defining. Rathfelder (talk) 16:28, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 07:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - Category:Censored works is a perfectly adequate parent category and does not need a 'by country' subtree until there are 'by something else' subtrees. Oculi (talk) 08:49, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Banu Hasan

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 03:16, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Banu Hasan to Category:Hasanids
 * Propose renaming Category:Banu Husayn to Category:Husaynids
 * Nominator's rationale: per WP:ENG and WP:COMMONNAME in English-language literature (compare Hasanids/Husaynids to Banu Hasan/Banu Husayn, where the latter also include some non-English sources and is limited mostly to direct translations from the Arabic) and the recently created parent articles Hasanids and Husaynids. Constantine  ✍  11:43, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 07:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support for consistency with the article titles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Drawers (artists)
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge.
 * Closer's note 1: For the record, Category:Drawers was previously deleted, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_May_1. There was no consensus to rename Category:Baroque draughtsmen at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_February_20, nor at the contemporary discussion Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_January_23. Any follow-up nomination would do well to make it a group nomination with the sub-categories.
 * Note 2: In other Wikipedias, only Japan has two categories, ja:Category:製図家 stated to be for artists as well as technical drafters, and ja:Category:ドローイング作家 for illustrators. Commons likewise has commons:category:Drafters and commons:category:Drawers (artists), but little content other than for visual artists. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:22, 5 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Drawers (artists) to Category:Draughtsmen
 * Nominator's rationale: In theory, the Category:Draughtsmen is for drafters, technical drawers (engineering).


 * In practice, the hundreds of people in Category:Draughtsmen are for 95%+ visual artists, not technical drafters. The 46 people in Category:Drawers (artists) are also visual artists.


 * The best solution may be to merge the drawers to the draughtsmen category, and to move the few technical drawers to a new Category:Drafters instead. But better ideas are welcome. Fram (talk) 11:53, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge per nom and create new Drafters cat as described to resolve the duplication. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the category is for artists who draw, as opposed to paint or sculpt etc. If there are artists in the Draughtsmen category, maybe they need recategorising. I've never come across viual artists who are referred to as 'draughtsmen'. Sionk (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Rembrandt. The draughtsman, an exhibition in Berlin. Turner as Draughtsman, a 2006 book. Great draughtsmen from Pisanello to Picasso, a book. Drawing Today: Draughtsmen in the Eighties, a Phaidon book. Edward Lear as a Landscape Draughtsman. There is a whole "Master draughtsmen series" about the major artists. "Drawers", on the other hand, is hardly ever used to describe artists. Cupboards, on the other hand. It may be that "draftsmen" is better than "draughtsmen", but both are clearly used often to refer to visual artists. Fram (talk) 05:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd still oppose a merge to Category:Draughtsmen, because the matching Wikipedia article is exclusively about technical drafters. Possibly a Category:Draughtsmen (artists), disambiguated in some way, would be a suitable solution. Sionk (talk) 19:26, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 07:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom, remove the headnote from the Category:Draughtsmen page, create Category:Drafters with a  headnote and possibly propose renaming Category:Draughtsmen to Category:Draughtsmen (artists) in a fresh discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Rename as - or better yet  - as a subcat of  (or better, ). Note that there is a technical difference between a draughtsman and a drafter. A draughtsman is involved in the *creation* of drawings (i.e., the artist), a drafter is someone who *prepares* technical drawings, and is a term used entirely within plan-related industries such as architecture and civic design. You may hear of an artist referred to as a draughtsman, but it'd be very unlikely to hear one described as a drafter. Grutness...  wha?   03:49, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the subcat idea. What else would be in apart from artists? Other than that I think we are aligned. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * According to the main Wikipedia article, Drafter, it is not for artists, but for technical draughtsmen. So any artists should be removed/recategorised. Sionk (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment -- In British English, a person who prepares architects drawings (if not the architect himself) or the blueprints in shipbuilding is a draughtsman, not a drafter. We might split Category:Artist draughtsmen and Category:Technical draughtsmen.  Om British English a draft is the old air that comes under an ill-fitting door or window.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The latter should be called Category:Drafters in order to align with the Drafter article. In order to cope with the differences between British and American English I suggest we turn Category:Draughtsmen into a disambiguation page, linking to Category:Drafters and Category:Draughtsmen (artists). Marcocapelle (talk) 09:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds sensible. A redirect to Category:Drafters from Category:Draughtsmen (technical) might still be handy (though that wouldn't necessarily hold up a resolution of this CfD). Sionk (talk) 12:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment, a related discussion has been started now on January 23rd, the proposal is to rename Category:Draughtsmen to Category:Drafters. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I could support a split, but not "Category:Artist draughtsmen" and "Category:Technical draughtsmen", as many of the subjects are women. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:53, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.