Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 January 18



Category:Abolitionist movements

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 07:40, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Abolitionist movements to Category:Abolitionist organizations and Category:Abolitionism
 * Nominator's rationale: "Abolitionism" itself is the movement, and Category:Abolitionism is already within . The nominated category is not needed or helpful. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: one of the target categories,, has been nominated for speedy renaming to . I will update the nom if/when that one is processed. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - Hah. You beat me to it. I was just waiting for the Speedy nom to wrap up before proceeding with this one. It's amazing how many people don't seem to get the distinction between a movement and an organization. It's not really that hard... Anomalous+0 (talk) 13:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:History of Catholicism in Spain

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: don't rename. ~ Rob 13 Talk 02:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in Spain to Category:History of the Catholic Church in Spain
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in Germany to Category:History of the Catholic Church in Germany
 * Propose renaming Category:History of Catholicism in France to Category:History of the Catholic Church in France
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D: History of the Catholic Church in Spain, etc. respectively. Follow-up on Categories_for_discussion/Speedy. PPEMES (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose, various articles are about the history of Catholicism but not about the history of the Catholic Church as an organisation: Augustinus-Verein, Centre Party (Germany), Diet of Worms, Donar's Oak, Gesellenverein, etc. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:15, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, these entities may be legally independent, but in so far as they pertain to anything "Catholic", don't they pertain to the Catholic Church (or its history)? Or did I miss anything, such as Independent Catholic entities? For the record, consider where Catholicism redirects in article realm in comparison. PPEMES (talk) 13:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The answer is no, the history of the Catholic Church as an organization is part of the history of Catholicism as a religious tradition. For comparison, we have Category:History of Presbyterianism with Category:History of the Church of Scotland as a subcategory and the article Scottish Reformation Parliament belongs to the former but not to the latter. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:06, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * How is Catholicism a religious tradition separate from the Catholic Church? Where can I read more about this on Wikipedia? PPEMES (talk) 19:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I have already given a number of examples from the German category of articles that are not about the Catholic Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry. You are probably right and I mistaken. However, could you please point to from where your assertion of category consensuns stems from article realm consensus here (unless you argue it should be the other way around)? PPEMES (talk) 12:23, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not aware there have been discussions in article space about these categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:52, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Since Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church and I fail to understand your arguments for why there ought to be a a separate taxonomy in the category realm, would you mind referring to where in the article realm your points are stated, to give an idea, please? PPEMES (talk) 23:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirects are not the starting point for Wikipedia policy. We can just as easily argue that the needs to be changed there because the Catholicism is broader than the Catholic Church using these categories as an example. tahc chat 03:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose The Church itself is irrelevant to these countries, the part of the population adhering to Catholicism and the pro-Catholic organizations are historically significant. Dimadick (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I am not updated on this. Who is described as adhering to Catholicism without pertaining to the Catholic Church? Could anyone make this clear with an article link? PPEMES (talk) 13:53, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Too many people to list here. tahc chat 03:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * This is precisely the definition of the lay people. Place Clichy (talk) 11:01, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Marcocapelle. tahc chat 03:25, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose Sometimes I feel like we're trapped in a loop somewhere... Open any good English dictionary, and you will read that Catholicism is not synonymous with Catholic Church. The first is a faith, the second is a church organisation. The fact that the two concepts are related enough that they are better covered in a single article (hence the redirect) does not mean anything more than just that. Especially, it does not mean that every instance of the word Catholicism in Wikipedia shall be blindly replaced by Catholic Church, in the article namespace, in the category namespace or elsewhere. In the current case, History of Catholicism in the said countries includes periods of time where Catholicism was split between several organisations, such as the Great Western Schism. More recently, the traditionalists akin to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre belong without a doubt to the history of Catholicism, although they were, for a time, outside of the Catholic Church. Not to mention lay organisations such as the Centre Party (Germany) and others mentioned by Marcocapelle. Place Clichy (talk) 11:01, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean and I too regret that. Your arguments may be valid. I am open to that. Thanks for being the first user giving examples in this discussion. However, unfortunately, uncertainties remain. Now, I could provide hesitation about your examples, but doesn't it seem like that discussion would be more fit for  a talk page in the article realm? Which leads me back again to the core issue: If your arguments are true, why isn't this reflected in the article realm? Wouldn't you too agree that it would give your arguments more credit, if that was the case, against hesitation about deviating WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH in the category tree? Either way, I tried to help you possibly solving this issue with this edit. Feel free to help improve. PPEMES (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a dictionary so it does not have to explain the term Catholicism by all means. A mere practical improvement in Wikipedia would be to turn the redirect page Catholicism into a disambiguation page, not only redirecting to Category:Catholic Church but also to, for example, Catholic lay organisations, List of independent Catholic denominations and Catholic spirituality. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not the first one in this discussion to give examples, see this edit by User:Marcocapelle. Use of the word Catholicism in the meaning of the faith and practice of the Catholic Church, or which is otherwise generally regarded as Catholic rather than Protestant or Eastern Orthodox (according to the Oxford dictionary definition) is very much "reflected in the article realm". Notice for instance the name of Portal:Catholicism, which should probably be your main venue for discussion. Note also that the world Catholicism is cited 36 times on the Catholic Church article, and 22 times on History of the Catholic Church, as early as the introduction: In 380, under Emperor Theodosius I, Catholicism became the state religion of the Roman Empire.... It is also reflected in the name of articles (to which you seem to give great importance) such as Traditionalist Catholicism, Anti-Catholicism, Liberal Catholicism, List of converts to Catholicism etc.
 * I know there have been many article renaming requests, some of which I consider unfortunate, in the direction of blindly replacing Catholicism by Catholic Church in titles. Why category renaming requests seem to attract more discussion than article renaming requests, I cannot really explain, although having a central venue for discussion certainly play a part. To help you, I can only quote how several prominent English dictionaries define Catholicism:
 * Oxford: 1. The faith, practice, and church order of the Roman Catholic Church. 1.1 Adherence to the forms of Christian doctrine and practice which are generally regarded as Catholic rather than Protestant or Eastern Orthodox.
 * Collins gives 3 definitions:
 * COBUILD Advanced English Dictionary: Catholicism is the traditions, the behaviour, and the set of Christian beliefs that are held by Catholics.
 * Collins English Dictionary: 1. short for Roman Catholicism 2. the beliefs, practices, etc, of any Catholic Church with sense 1 further defined as the beliefs, practices, and system of government of the Roman Catholic Church
 * Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition: the doctrine, faith, practice, and organization of a Catholic church, esp. of the Roman Catholic Church
 * Merriam-Webster 1 : ROMAN CATHOLICISM 2 : the faith, practice, or system of Catholic Christianity with Roman Catholicism further defined as the faith, doctrine, or polity of the Roman Catholic Church
 * The terms most frequently cited are the of practice(s), beliefs, faith and doctrine, hardly synonymous with the term Catholic Church which is an organization. Place Clichy (talk) 22:37, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that it is clear to anyone even remotedly acquanted with this discussion that bursting a few quotes from a selection of English encyclopedias is kind of a 1A) refutable entry into a discussion with exchanged arguments of a length surpassing the Old Testament by now. A discussion part of which has been mirrored fragmentary in various talk pages throughout the years, hence the idea idea to try to centralise it all here: Naming conventions (Catholicism). PPEMES (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The part of that centralized location that is most closely related to this particular discussion is Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholicism). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Communes of the Metropolitan City of Rome

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Municipalities of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital. ~ Rob 13 Talk 02:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Communes of the Metropolitan City of Rome to Category:Communes of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital
 * Nominator's rationale The name of the parent administrative division is Metropolitan City of Rome Capital. While the title is unwieldy and reads horribly in English, it does appear to be the best translation of the entity. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Partial support C2D & C2C to Category:Municipalities of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital. The official name Rome comune in Italian, would be translated as "Rome Capital" in English, so it is logical when "Metropolitan City of foo translation would became "Metropolitan City of Rome Capital". However, it require WP:RM of the article to apply C2D to drop the word "Capital". Also the parent cat is located at and Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 15 state "The "communes" sub-categories may be speedily renamed to "Municipalities", if someone would be so kind as to tag them and list them at WP:CFDS"


 * Thus, it should be Category:Municipalities of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital . Matthew hk (talk) 11:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I accept Matthew's suggestion of Category:Municipalities of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:39, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support alternative Category:Municipalities of the Metropolitan City of Rome Capital, although it is not a very short name it is apparently the correct name. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Province of Rome

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: relisted at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_March_10. ~ Rob 13 Talk 04:01, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Province of Rome to Category:Province of Rome (1870 - 2014)
 * Nominator's rationale The Province of Rome was an administrative sub-division of the region of Lazio from 1870 to 2014. It was superseded by Metropolitan City of Rome Capital in 2015. I boldly renamed the eponymous article to Province of Rome (1870–2014) prior to the nomination. The move is necesary to disambiguate it from the modern entity. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't follow the village pump, but the year style should be Province of Rome (1870–2014) or not? – and - is different actually. Matthew hk (talk) 11:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * As a note. the article was only moved recently by Laurel Lodged from Province of Rome, thus C2D not applies. Matthew hk (talk) 17:51, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I accept Matthew's correction and have also changed the name of the article. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Rename to, with corrected hyphenation. Grutness... wha?   01:09, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * If kept, support alternative rename, but I also wonder whether the category should be kept at all. There is hardly anything left. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It may be a container cat for the cat of the former mayor (or whatever the name of the position) of the province. Matthew hk (talk) 07:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I doubt if we will be able to populate that, the article doesn't even provide a list of presidents and article Provinces of Italy does not even bother to describe how the provinces are governed. It does mention though: "Provinces are often deemed useless, and many proposals have been made in recent years to eliminate them." In Italian Wikipedia only 3 presidents of the Province of Rome have an article, of which only 1 also has an article in en.wp. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Based on the it-wiki the predecessor of the Province of Viterbo belong to the former Province of Rome, thus it was placed in the Italian counterpart. However, the en version did not have a trace of that part of history (the province was founded in 1920s, so Roman era history is not that relevant) Matthew hk (talk) 10:19, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Or to be precise, the starting year 1870 is wrong. File:Circondario di Roma.png, old Province of Rome is as big as Lazio region, while Circondario di Roma (circle of Rome) is more similar to the newer Province of Rome, but not entirely the same. So it may have potential but need to import more content from it-wiki to make it relevant. Matthew hk (talk) 14:07, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, the province of Rome has been greatly reduced in size, in multiple phases in the first half of the 20th century. That makes it even more questionable to keep it as because it is not clear which province of Rome we are talking about. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * support to, with corrected hyphenation.GreyShark (dibra) 19:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:True Range Multilateration

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy delete (non-admin closure) . Marcocapelle (talk) 11:55, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting true range multilateration


 * Nominator's rationale: Only exists as a self redirect, likely made by mistake (only history item is moving the category to mainspace, as logged here ). Ping to the creator, User:NavigationGuy. DannyS712 (talk) 01:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment for future reference, self-redirects are eligible for speedy deletion (use the housekeeping parameter since the tool doesn't recognize category redirects. buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 03:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. I'll do that in the future. --DannyS712 (talk) 03:37, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I created Category: True Range Multilation by mistake. Please delete it. Thanks. NavigationGuy (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.