Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 October 15



Category:Turtle articles needing attention

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: withdrawn. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:26, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting turtle articles needing attention


 * Nominator's rationale: Empty category for long time. Have long since forgotten how things get added to this category, although I created it in 2011 but it doesn't get used anymore. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 21:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

|attention         = |ATTENTION_CAT    = Turtle articles needing attention so that if someone adds the parameter "|attention=yes" (in fact, =anything) within the WikiProject Turtles banner on an article talk page, the page will be added to the category. I believe those two lines would have to be removed from the template if the category is deleted. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Template:WikiProject Turtles includes the lines
 * Okay, excellent. I've removed depreciated parameters including "Turtle articles needing attention" category. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 13:52, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete We have a category and a stub dedicated to turtles. Also, we template that tells us to expand the article and a WP regarding turtles (or animals in general) SpinnerLaserz (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - Documentation had not mentioned this parameter, so it should not be a surprise that it was overlooked. The documentation has been updated and the category is no longer empty.  I'm sure more articles could be added. The category has been using Possibly empty category, albeit hidden until today, but the instructions there should be heeded.   I am not sure I understand what you mean by a stub.  Do you mean ? --Nessie (talk) 16:09, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's the one. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 16:24, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * attention applies to any class of article, and not just stubs. If a C-class article needs attention, it should not be placed in .  Even if the catagories were somehow combined, that would be a discussion regarding WPBannerMeta and does not apply specifically to turtle articles. --Nessie (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The documentation had included the 'attention' parameter for years until I edited it some hours ago in response to a comment above. Thank you for CleanupWorklistBot list that you've used to populate the category. Doesn't the CleanupWorklistBot list make the category redundant? I mean you are using a CleanupWorklistBot list, to then alter talk page templates, to alter a category that itself is unused. If someone really wanted to see what required attention would be better to go straight to the CleanupWorklistBot list and skip the other stages. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 17:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * sounds like you actually want to have a discussion about attention at WPBannerMeta, as none of your arguments apply specifically to WikiProject Turtles. CWB is great, but is external to Wikipedia, and the rules it uses are not controlled by WPTurtles.  Having an on-site category keeps some of that control in-house.  --Nessie (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Withdraw - Since in response to this Cfd and related activity, Nessie wishes to use and has populated the category. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 17:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:United Kingdom–France proxy conflict

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting united kingdom–france proxy conflict


 * Propose deleting north korea–united states proxy conflict


 * Propose deleting united states–china proxy conflict


 * Nominator's rationale: As for Category:United States–Russia proxy conflict which was nominated below, these categories have unclear scope and have been filled using very light criteria beyond any academic consensus. E.g. were added either open conflicts between the two powers (such as the or the Korean War), or conflicts where involvement of any of the two is very debatable. Place Clichy (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep (except for the United Kingdom–United Kingdom–France proxy conflict) but only they have their own articles We could, however, created an article on the mentioned proxy conflicts (if you take a look at the Yemeni Civil War you can see that both the United States and North Korea had supported the Hadi forces and the Houthi forces respectively) but as for the United Kingdom and France (there is not a lot). SpinnerLaserz (talk) 16:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. This is close to WP:OR. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Disputed vote We can keep them except for the United Kingdom and France proxy conflict since there is not a lot but only if any articles were created. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 18:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I would expect articles to be deleted too, but even if they are kept the categories should then be deleted per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:31, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at past conflicts like any Cold War conflicts and in March of this year, the UN report states that North Korea had supplied weapons to Yemen to help the Houthis, you can see the countries that involved. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete as non-defining / overcategorization. DexDor(talk) 19:20, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete as WP:OR, which equates interstate competition with "proxy conflict". -- Black Falcon (talk) 16:55, 19 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alumni of Reimann School

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: convert to disambiguation page. MER-C 09:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting alumni of reimann school


 * Nominator's rationale: The Reimann School was an art school founded in Berlin in 1902, re-established in London in 1937 after persecution by the Nazis, which closed at the outbreak of World War II. Alumni of both instances of the school are currently found at and, themselves part of  and . The container category is stranded alone at the root of Category:Alumni by university or college in Europe. Do we really need this container category? Place Clichy (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Convert to disambiguation page. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:49, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Conversion to a dab page is a reasonable alternative. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Roman Catholic churches by continent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: option b. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 02:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * OPTION A
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in North America to Category:Roman Catholic churches in North America


 * OPTION B
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches by continent to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings by continent
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in Africa to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Africa
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in Asia to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Asia
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in Antarctica to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Antarctica
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in Europe to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Europe
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in Oceania to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Oceania
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic churches in South America to Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in South America


 * Nominator's rationale: These categories does not contain articles on individual church buildings, but only sub-categories named etc; all the sub-cats are "churches", "cathedrals" or "parishes and churches". Many other categories were nominated at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_1, with a consensus to use "churches", but the inconsistent one was overlooked in that nomination. Since then, some editors have supported the use of "church buildings" to distinguish the category purpose from church denominations.


 * Option A was proposed at CFD August 11, to revert an out-or-process move of the North America category in 2015, and to make it consistent with the sub-cats. However, being considered on its own, that was not carried. Note that this category is consistent with its other parent Category:Catholic church buildings in North America and with Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings by continent.
 * Option B would make the siblings and parent consistent with the North America category and with the smaller hierarchy for Eastern Catholics.
 * One or the other should be adopted. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Option A - per the broader cfd of 2015: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_1.  Oculi (talk) 12:52, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Option B per parent Category:Roman Catholic church buildings. The format of the nomination makes it think that "church buildings" are the exception, but it is not quite true, as seen also in the subtrees for and . In the 2015 discussion, which was far from a consensus, the main argument for using churches rather than church buildings was that congregations are sometimes more notable that the building that hosts them. This is far from being the case in Catholicism, where individual parishes have little to no autonomous existence, but where church buildings can often be monuments in high regard in their own right. This is also the case in many branches of Christianity that are not congretionalist, such as Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans etc. This is why you will often see church buildings in the name of denomination-specific categories, which BTW where not among the list of categories nominated in the above-cited 2015 CfD. Place Clichy (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The buildings are called churches; see eg Category:Roman Catholic churches by country. I can't see any point in having discussions about subtrees which rename twigs here and there out of sync with previous large discussions. (Laurel Lodged has created most of the 'buildings' categories and redirected others after the 2015 cfd: hardly a consensus.) Oculi (talk) 17:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Option B, "churches" is ambiguous (at least in many denominations), while "church buildings" is not. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:24, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Option B since almost all are about buildings. It is unlike the similar Methodist category which is often about congregations. A category for RC parishes already exists - Category:Parishes (Catholic Church). Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Washington International University alumni
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 October 27%23Category:Washington International University alumni

Category:Buddhist World Heritage Sites

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. I'll list these on the manual page in case someone wants to create a list. MER-C 09:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting buddhist world heritage sites
 * christian world heritage sites
 * hindu world heritage sites
 * muslim world heritage sites
 * Nominator's rationale: With limited exceptions where there is a historical context for it (e.g. Category:Christian sites of the Roman Empire, Category:Buddhist holy sites), we do not categorize places by religion. There is no reason we should start doing so with World Heritage Sites, as this status is not linked to a particular religious connection. (Courtesy pinging the categories' creators, User:SpinnerLaserz and User:Digital User) -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:08, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge These categories can merge into Category:Buddhism by location, Category:Christianity by location, Category:Islam by location and Category:Hinduism by location or any appropriate category respectively. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, possibly listify. Merging will not be needed since the articles are already in a religious buildings category of that religion. Besides the "by location" subcats are meant to be container categories so they are not an appropriate merge target. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Convert to list, starting as a combined List of World Heritage Sites by religion. – Fayenatic  L ondon 08:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete or listify. Unuseful intersection prone to bringing more problems than help. Place Clichy (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:United States–Russia proxy conflict

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting united states–russia proxy conflict
 * Nominator's rationale: This category is steeped in subjectivity and/or original research. There is no scholarly consensus that the Afghan, Syrian, and Yemeni civil wars, the Persian Gulf crisis, and the Donbass war are theatres of a supposed U.S.–Russia proxy conflict. (Courtesy pinging the category's creator, User:SpinnerLaserz) -- Black Falcon (talk) 03:52, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge This category can merge into Category:Russia–United States relations or any appropriate category. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Just delete per nom. Merging does not make sense: with the exception of Syria, only one of US or Russia is involved. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. There is a template Template:Russia–United States proxy conflict (which, along with the category, was recently created by SpinnerLaserz) which allows navigation between relevant articles. I concur that no merging is needed, because the category was added without removing any previous categories. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:09, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. Note that the creator has also created Category:United Kingdom–France proxy conflict (listing the likes of, and ),  (where we find the  and the !!!), or Category:United States–China proxy conflict (where once again we find very open conflict between the two nations such as the ). Frankly, I do not find much logic in this lot. The result does not even help navigation as you would expect by diffusing content from  into subcategories. These categories were nominated above. Place Clichy (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Just be a WP:KEEPCOOL person. You don't need to be angry or extremely upset, you will make it worse. Just take a look at the supporters in the combatants section of the conflicts mentioned and you can see their names with the right sources (and take a look at definition of a proxy war). This is the main reason why I created this. Also, I am creating an article based on the American-Russian proxy conflict, if anyone is interested in editing this, then you are welcome. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 15:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no offense to you as creator of these categories. I know they were created in good faith. I appreciate the input you bring to the project. However, in this case as in other cases before, I think that your enthousiam got you a little carried away. Not everything is good material for a Wikipedia category. I would suggest CLNT as an interesting read on the matter. Place Clichy (talk) 13:54, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep (if the conflict has its own article which is still under draft as mentioned above) SpinnerLaserz (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per arguments above. DexDor(talk) 19:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.