Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 April 13



Category:Music videos featuring Deepika Padukone

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  02:09, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting music videos featuring deepika padukone


 * Nominator's rationale: WP:PERFCAT: "specific works by the performers who [...] appeared in them". Armbrust The Homunculus 20:04, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per above rationale. Also delete below similar categories:
 * music videos featuring ranbir kapoor
 * music videos featuring shah rukh khan
 * music videos featuring priyanka chopra‎
 * music videos featuring salman khan‎
 * music videos featuring ranveer singh‎

§§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 13:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, but somebody should tag them. Bearcat Armbrust The Homunculus 16:29, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Dharmadhyaksha should indeed have tagged these other categories if they intended to add them to the discussion here, but I've already done so on their behalf now. Bearcat (talk) 16:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete all per WP:PERFCAT. We do not categorize music videos by celebrity appearance. Bearcat (talk) 15:29, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Wanna know what celebrity he or she appeared in a music video? Look up an article about a celebrity and you will see info on the music video they appeared in. Easy. No need for any categories like these. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 00:31, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete all per nom. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 18:43, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Oxford UCCE cricketers / Loughborough University cricketers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename.  bibliomaniac  1  5  02:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Oxford UCCE cricketers to Category:Oxford MCCU cricketers and Category:Loughborough University cricketers to Category:Loughborough MCCU cricketers
 * Nominator's rationale: per change of team name to Oxford MCCU in 2010 and Category:Loughborough University cricketers to Category:Loughborough MCCU cricketers as it is Loughborough MCCU and not Loughborough University which hold first-class status. See consensus for these changes from this CfD in September 2019. StickyWicket (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , you need to tag both categories as explained in Categories for discussion. TSventon (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator. TSventon (talk) 11:23, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. – Ianblair23 (talk) 12:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


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Category:Sydney Film Festival

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 19:19, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting sydney film festival


 * Nominator's rationale: Eponymous category for a film festival without the volume of spinoff content needed to warrant an eponymous category. Other than the festival's head article itself, the only other things we actually have are a poorly written boilerplate article, which is up for AFD as it consists entirely of section headers without any actual content, about a single year's running of the festival, and a BLP of one past artistic director of the festival (which could be considered analogous to WP:PERFCAT.) Obviously no prejudice against recreation in the future if and when there are actually more articles related to this film festival to file in it, but the amount of content we have today isn't even close to enough to justify it yet. Bearcat (talk) 17:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 06:47, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I am not too sure if this should be move to draft or not. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 00:29, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There's no "draft" for categories. Bearcat (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment - At present the content is a person and the 2016 festival. How often if is this festival held?  If there is an annual one, the answer should be "populate".  I have not investigated why the individual is there.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:08, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic yachts

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 19:23, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting olympic yachts


 * Nominator's rationale: Only contains one page. There are various categories for specific yacht classes, and this page is in one of those already. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete A yacht that's now 100+ years old participating in one Olympics feels like WP:PERFCAT. If yachts are built specifically for a competition or are known for winning one, that would likely be defining but the one article doesn't make either claim. RevelationDirect (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this would be deprecated, but for now I have added the member article Erna Signe into Category:Sailing at the 1912 Summer Olympics. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe you can merge the article Erna Signe within the article Sailing at the 1912 Summer Olympics – 12 Metre. Then the category will be empty and obsolete. Regards Dragon Genoa (talk) 10:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If you like I can do the merging. Regards Dragon Genoa (talk) 10:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable, subject to consensus here. RevelationDirect (talk) 11:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose that merge. Sailing at the 1912 Summer Olympics – 12 Metre is an article about the competition, and would be  overwhelmed by addition of detailed coverage of individual notable yachts. 12-metre class yachts are all well-documented, so the article Erna Signe  has plenty of scope for expansion. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:20, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Soling Sailors

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting soling sailors


 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate of Category:Soling class sailors, which was incorrectly emptied. DrKay (talk) 14:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The term Soling class is not commonly used in the Sailing/Soling world. There is used just Soling!. Therefor Soling class sailors was reconstructed to Soling Sailors. Please remove Category:Soling class sailors. Dragon Genoa (talk) 14:41, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As has been already explained to you, that's not how things work here. Category renames should be done through the process at WP:CFD. Category renames are done by bot and should conform to the guidelines for category names, i.e. be written in sentence case. DrKay (talk) 14:44, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand now and I will follow that process during a next situation. I have learned! However it is done now. So please lets keep it this way. Or if you want I can change to lowercase if you like me to do that. Dragon Genoa (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've restored the pages to the former category for now – and only afterwards read the instruction not to empty this category until the discussion is closed, my mistake! If anyone wants to revert that's OK with me. Oh, and delete, "Soling Sailors" is not a proper name and the previous title was fine. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * 'Delete per nominator. Category:Soling class sailors fits the convention of Category:Sailors (sport) by class ... but Category:Soling Sailors breaks that convention in two ways: by omitting "class" and by wrongly capitalising "sailors".
 * A WP:TROUT to @Dragon Genoa for the out-of-process move, and thanks to @Justlettersandnumbers for reverting it. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:31, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand that you are the experts and I will follow. However adding the word class is in my opinion wrong. Not only for the Soling but also for the other classes. When you read the categories name it gives the impression that it is a special class of sailors. e.g. Sailors of Soling class. This is specially thu with the category: Star class sailors. Please review your decision and correct the other categories and correct the convention. Dragon Genoa (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * @Dragon Genoa, the intention is to make it clear that these are sailors of a particular class of boat. The Star, Soling, 12-metre etc are all classes. The current convention of Category:Sailors (sport) by class is .  The only alternative format I can see is  (e.g. Category:Sailors in the Soling class), which doesn't seem to me to change much.
 * Personally, I see no problem with Category:Soling class sailors, Category:Star class sailors, Category:470 class sailors, etc ... but you evidently do see a problem.  So I suggest that you discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sailing.  Whatever format is used needs to be applied consistently, so if there seems to be a strong lobby at the WikiProject for a different (but still consistent) naming format, then I will be happy to help construct a group CFD nomination for all relevant categories. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 07:04, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion and offered help. I will investigate. Dragon Genoa (talk) 07:24, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - quite a few of Dragon Genoa's creations are oddly titled (categories and templates). Oculi (talk) 20:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic Soling Sailors

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting olympic soling sailors


 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate of Category:Soling class Olympic sailors, which was incorrectly emptied. DrKay (talk) 14:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The term Soling class is not commonly used in the Sailing/Soling world. There is used just Soling!. Therefor Soling class Olympic sailors was reconstructed to Olympic Soling Sailors. Please remove Category:Soling class Olympic sailors. Dragon Genoa (talk) 14:41, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Defer Whatever the outcome of the above nomination is (whether I agree with or not) should be applied to this one. RevelationDirect (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. In these edits, I have reverted the out-of-process moves. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and BHG. Oculi (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:World Champions Soling

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting world champions soling


 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate of Category:Soling class world champions, which was incorrectly emptied. DrKay (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The term Soling class is not commonly used in the Sailing/Soling world. There is used just Soling!. Therefor Soling class world champions was reconstructed to World Champions Soling. Please remove Category:Soling class world champions. Dragon Genoa (talk) 14:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Defer Whatever the outcome of the parent nomination is (whether I agree with or not) should be applied to this one. RevelationDirect (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. The pre-existing Category:Soling class world champions follows the convention of Category:Soling class world champions, so this would be eligible for a speedy merge per WP:C2C.  However, I have reverted the out-of-process move (in these edits) per WP:BRD, so there is noting left to merge.  Jut delete the nominated category. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - doesn't follow standard of Category:World champions in sailing by class. Oculi (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:North America templates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename.  bibliomaniac  1  5  02:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:North and Central America, and Caribbean association football navigational boxes by year to Category:North American association football navigational boxes by year
 * Nominator's rationale: in Wikipedia categories Central America and Caribbean are within North America. The proposed name will match the sub-cats, whereas the existing name partly corresponds to the member pages for CONCACAF. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:02, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Category:North and Central America, and Caribbean association football navigational boxes by year to Category:North American association football navigational boxes by year – C2B, in Wikipedia categories Central America and Caribbean are within North America. Also C2C per subcats. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:54, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the templates in the category, which are called "North and Central America, and Caribbean football (CONCACAF)" Armbrust The Homunculus 20:52, 10 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nominator. The verbosity of the current title is redundant. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:32, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator. Oculi (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related discussions. GiantSnowman 16:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. GiantSnowman 16:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. KingSkyLord (talk &#124; contribs) 01:08, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support -- The right place for the verbose full name is in a headnote for the category. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:03, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Railway stations by opening/closing

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename.  bibliomaniac  1  5  02:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming
 * Category:Railway stations by year of disestablishment to Category:Railway stations by year of closing
 * Category:Railway stations by opening year to Category:Railway stations by year of opening
 * Category:Railway stations in Canada by opening year to Category:Railway stations in Canada by year of opening
 * Category:Railway stations in Russia by opening year‎ to Category:Railway stations in Russia by year of opening‎
 * Category:Railway stations in the United States by opening year to Category:Railway stations in the United States by year of opening
 * Nominator's rationale: Per Category:Railway lines by year of opening /Category:Railway lines by year of closing.  There is no point in having a mismatched "opening"/"disestablishment"  pair, or inconsistent naming formats for the chronology of lines and stations. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 07:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Good idea -- I have long thought that "establishment" was a clumsy term, used too much in WP. Furthermore, the important issue is when it opened, not when the foundation stone was laid.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:40, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * @Peterkingiron, I agree about the overuse of "(dis)establishment". I have been intending to propose renaming most of them to "endings/beginnings". --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes please. Can we reserve the term established for entities where it fits?  Schools, universities, organisations. Not buildings and structures. Rathfelder (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My thinking too, Rathfelder. I think we kinda got here by accident, due to the organisations categories developing faster than the others, and the ternmiology for them became the form of the national container categories. Time to fix that, but it is too big to do it at RFC.  I will open an RFC. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 01:34, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, add Category:Railway stations in China by opening year to Category:Railway stations in China by year of opening Hugo999 (talk) 00:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:GPS navigation devices

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete with selective merges where appropriate.  – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:11, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting gps navigation devices


 * Nominator's rationale: This was opened at the wrong venue in a November 2019 nomination for the category's talk page, when the category itself should have been nominated. The rationale, by User:UKER, read: –LaundryPizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support, I also saw a sports watch with GPS in the category but by far the most are smartphones indeed. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. In 2008, when I created this category (completely forgot about it :-) ), most devices currently in it didn't exist. Since membership of smartphones in this category is trivial, delete and upmerge where appropriate (dedicated GPS navigation devices, probably). GregorB (talk) 09:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep and repopulate, which I will implement as reverse merge and redirect. – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland to Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland
 * Propose merging Category:Presbyterian churches in Ireland to Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Ireland
 * Propose merging Category:Presbyterian churches in the Republic of Ireland to Category:Presbyterian church buildings in the Republic of Ireland
 * Nominator's rationale: In the rest of the category tree, "X churches in Y" is synonymous with "X church buildings in Y". Wikiacc (¶) 00:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Note out-of-process moves. It seems that the "churches in" categories have been emptied, and their contents moved to newly-created "church buildings in" categories.  As far as I can see, this was done by  in a series of edits on 2 Feb 2020.
 * For example:
 * 20:36, 2 February 2020diff Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland created
 * 20:38, 2 February 2020diff: First Kilrea Presbyterian Church‎ removed Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland; added Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland
 * In effect, LL did a stealth renaming of the categories, bypassing CFD and disruptively leaving the old categories in place as duplicates. I had hoped that LL would have long since gotten past such antics.  --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 01:17, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * For completeness, I should note that the categories were not empty when I first found them: they contained articles for Presbyterian denominations. After moving the denominations to what I thought was a more appropriate place, I noticed these categories were empty and nominated them here. (I should've said this in the nomination!) As best as I can reconstruct it, the timeline is as follows:
 * 16:54, 2 February 2020diff, Laurel Lodged: Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster removed Category:Presbyterianism in Ireland, Category:Presbyterianism in the United Kingdom, Category:Presbyterianism in the Republic of Ireland; added Category:Presbyterian churches in the Republic of Ireland, Category:Presbyterian churches in the United Kingdom
 * 00:26, 13 April 2020diff, Wikiacc: Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster removed Category:Presbyterian churches in the Republic of Ireland, Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland; added Category:Presbyterianism in the Republic of Ireland, Category:Presbyterianism in Northern Ireland
 * The pattern is probably similar for the other articles. For a list, see my edits today between 00:23 and 00:26. Wikiacc (¶) 02:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, Lordy. What a mess
 * So it seems that LL's solo run was about repurposing the "churches in" categories to a "denominations in" function, and that Wikiacc has wisely reverted this.  Have I got that right? --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 04:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's how it looks to me. (Though I'll leave the wisdom of my edits for others to decide.) Wikiacc (¶) 04:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I see no mess. I see a tree structure for church buildings. I see a different tree structures for "churches" or "congregations". It seems convenient for the "buildings" to be a child of the "churches" category but am open to the creation of an overarching category to contain both tree structures. Presbyterian denominations are different from Christian denominations that have an episcopal polity; they have a propensity to conflate the building used for worship with the worshipers (congregation / parishoners / elect / saved) in that building. The "First Church of Foo" often means the building in Foo and the people who attend services in that building. This problem has received extensive coverage in CFD over the years, particularly from editors in America. The solution that I have implemented was recommended in at least one of those decisions (will dig it out later). In carefully selecting those articles that referred exclusively, or almost exclusively to the building, I placed them in Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland; the remainder, a co-mingling of both streams, I left in Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland. ( insert "you're welcome" smiley). Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * LL, I agree with your observation that they have a propensity to conflate the building used for worship with the worshipers (congregation / parishoners / elect / saved) in that building. Which is one of many reasons why your out-of-process moves to "church buildings" categories was wrong. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and repopulate Disciplinary action is needed against the perpetrators who emptied these out of process. It is very difficult to know what ought to be there when a category is empty.  The problem which WP has long wrestled with is the multiple senses of the word church, including the church universal (all Christians); denominations; local churches (congregations + the building they worship in); the building.  Recently the tendency has been to encourage local church articles to be in "church buildings", because the articles are usually more about the building than the congregation, their worship, and the ministry based in it.  "church" categories are perhaps best used for container categories covering all the different uses.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * For clarification re; "repopulate", which articles do you propose should be in each of the categories? Wikiacc (¶) 20:51, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * @Wikiacc, I presume that Peterkingiron means that e.g. Abbey Presbyterian Church, Dublin should be in Category:Presbyterian churches in the Republic of Ireland, as it was until LL's edit recategorising it in Category:Presbyterian church buildings in the Republic of Ireland. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 23:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that that is at all what PeterK means. I think that he means that the current structure is fine (i.e. a tree for buildings and a tree for congregations) but that recent edits have moved articles out of their categories in order to "fix" them. Since they were already in their correct categories after my edits, I propose that we look at the contents article by article and decide which category they ought to be in (i.e. to restore the status quo ante Wikiacc). There are not too many. It's achievable. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:50, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As indicated above, I have carried out the scheme for Northern Ireland. Things that are buildings are in Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland. Things that are mainly about congregations or denominations are in Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland. Both now have Category:Presbyterianism in Northern Ireland as their parent category. I think that that solves the problem for Northern Ireland. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * LL, the problem is that yet again you have have carried out a scheme without consensus. You have been here long enough to know to use CFD. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) •(contribs) 10:23, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a demonstration of good intent. So do you like what I've done with the place? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * By the way, I've now done the same for the Republic. I changed only one article - St. Andrew's, Blackrock - which on reflection had quite a lot of content about the parish so it was probably prudent to move it to "churches" out of "buildings". So Ireland is now fixed I believe. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The reason that the renaming was proposed at CFD was that some editors felt that since many of the current articles on churches were most about the buildings (esp in the United States, where much of the content is NRHP-related), the categories should reflect that content. This reasoning was rejected at CFD, because the unbalanced state of many articles is not a good reason to restrict their scope. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and repopulate - my recollection is that cfds have favoured 'church' over 'church building'; e.g. Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_1. Oculi (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Clearly consensus in this CfD is very shallow, and many other CfDs have gone in the opposite direction (i.e. preferring 'church buildings' to 'churches') for different specific contexts. I wouldn't say that there is any rule carved in stone, especially not according to this CfD. Precisely, the trouble we're going through here demonstrates, if needed, the ambiguity or naming categories for 'churches' which are understood by some as church organizations and by others as church buildings. If these categories are for organizations such as the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, then they should probably be named differently. If they are for local church buildings/congregations such as First Kilrea Presbyterian Church, then they should probably be named differently. Place Clichy (talk) 02:10, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and repopulate per @Oculi and @Peterkingiron. Time to impose some restraint on LL. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The tragedy with this churches tree is, while WP:ENGVAR allows different vocabulary based on locality, we do not have a similar rule that allows vocabulary differences by domination. If we would be more flexible in this respect, we could use "church buildings" for all denominations in which the primary meaning of "church" is denomination (such as Anglican Church, Catholic Church). Marcocapelle (talk) 21:04, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, I don't think that any such distinction is needed. For all denominations, "FooTown Church", "St FooBar's Church" "Foo Street Church" etc all means  an individual building and its congregation.
 * Comment. Except for the UK, current convention favors using "Presbyterian denominations" in the category name to hold articles that are primarily about a denomination. See Category:Presbyterian denominations and subcategories. Wikiacc (¶) 13:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine with renaming Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland to Category:Presbyterian denominations in Northern Ireland per Wikiacc above. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I support that proposal. It would definitely address my concerns. Wikiacc (¶) 02:35, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I oppose that proposal. Put the churches back in   Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland, where they were before L's out-of-process moves  ... and crate a new Category:Presbyterian denominations in Northern Ireland. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Can I be clear what it is that BHG is proposing above please? We should but articles about buildings back into Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland where the category can then be renamed to Category:Presbyterian denominations in Northern Ireland. Have I got that right? So the proposal of BHG would involve us knowingly populating a category in the knowledge that the next day those contents would have to be moved out of the renamed category? Please tell me that i have misinterpreted BHG's proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sigh. I think it's clear that's not at all what I mean.  Put the churches in Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland, and put the denominations in Category:Presbyterian denominations in Northern Ireland. That means no Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 05:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply Having acknowledged that "they have a propensity to conflate the building used for worship with the worshipers (congregation / parishoners / elect / saved) in that building", I find it difficult to understand how, in your clarification above, it would avoid the problem that you identified. That is, the Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland would still leave users unsure as to whether they might find bricks 'n' mortar buildings or congregations. A far clearer solution has been presented above that avoids this pitfall. That is a) leave the bricks 'n' mortar buildings in Category:Presbyterian church buildings in Northern Ireland; b) leave the congregations or denominations in Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland; c) rename Category:Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland to Category:Presbyterian denominations in Northern Ireland; d) have both categories as children of Category:Presbyterianism in Northern Ireland. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Split between Category:Presbyterian denominations in X and Category:Presbyterian church buildings in X. 'Churches' has always been ambiguous between church organizations with multiple congregations and local church buildings, despite the role of the local congregation being much different among the various branches of Christianity. Place Clichy (talk) 02:01, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:European Museum of the Year Award winners
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: listify. MER-C 19:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:European Museum of the Year Award winners
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
 * The European Museum Forum is a worthwhile organization and I'm sure the European Museum of the Year Award is well deserved. It doesn't seem to be especially defining for the overall museums though. The V&A is a very large museum founded in 1852 while the Leventis Municipal Museum of Nicosia is a more modest affair founded in 1984 but neither article even mentions this award. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Guggenheim Fellows
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Guggenheim Fellows
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
 * This humongous category contains 7,729 biographies even though many of the winners don't have a Wikipedia article. The Guggenheim Fellowship is given to mid-career academics to take a sabbatical and a couple hundred are given out every year. The award is very competitive, would definitely be on their CV and most articles here mention it in passing in a list with other honors. However, it doesn't seem defining because it reflects the pre-existing prominence of these people in their field more than it amplifies their notability. We already have the winners listified here by year. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete as WP:NONDEFINING per the nominator's well-reasoned rationale. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:33, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. My usual criterion for whether a characteristic of academics should be thought of as defining is something like "would you use it when introducing this person as a speaker" or, since we can't check that so easily, "would you use it in a one-paragraph biography of an invited speaker as part of a conference announcement?" By this standard, being a Guggenheim fellow is clearly defining: See for example the speaker biographies of Herbert Clark (also a named professor and fellow of selective societies, so it's not like there's nothing else to say about him), Philip Pincus, Rennan Barkana, Raymond Schmitt, Anne Feldhaus, Fiorenzo Omenetto, etc. (These are just the first ones I found in a Google search; I didn't check whether they have Wikipedia articles and I don't think it matters whether they do.) In contrast, the nomination rationale, that the category is big, has nothing to do with whether it is defining. (Category:1950 births is bigger and has far more non-notable people associated with it.) And the nominator's call-out to OCAWARD is uninformative: it merely says that categories of non-defining awards should be made into lists, but does not say anything about what might make an award defining or non-defining. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Google isn't helpful to identify which of the 10,000 or so winners don't include this award in their online bios (or, for the earlier ones, obituaries). There is a strong consistency here with your links and the Wikipedia articles though: the award is mentioned in a block with other honors. We just disagree on whether that's defining. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * @David Eppstein, WP:NONDEFINING suggests one test of definingness:
 * So I started a sample of Category:Guggenheim Fellows, by taking the first entry under every letter of the alphabet, but gave up after the first 14 when i found no mention in the lead of Asger Aaboe, Milton Babbitt, Richard Clarke Cabot, Ernesto Guerra Da Cal, Cornelius Eady, Emil Fackenheim, Neal Gabler, Hans Haacke, Jorge Ibargüengoitia, Alfredo Jaar, Fred Kabotie, Joan La Barbara, Peter Maass, and Vladimir Nabokov. Heck, many of that set mention the award nowhere excet in a category, which fails WP:CATVER.
 * Maybe that sample isn't great quality, so I used Petscan to make me a list of pages in Category:Guggenheim Fellows which are WP:Good articles. (Here is the query link)
 * That gave me 21 hits, which I have sorted alphabetically: Ansel Adams, Samuel King Allison, Hannah Arendt, Margaret Atwood, Ben Bagdikian, Kenneth Bainbridge, Richard M. Eakin, Erving Goffman, Nat Hentoff, Gerald S. Lesser, Willard Libby, Walter Munk, Norman Foster Ramsey Jr., Frederick Reines, Robert V. Remini, George T. Reynolds, Emilio Segrè, Cyril Stanley Smith, Art Spiegelman, Robert C. Stebbins, Robert R. Wilson.
 * Of those 21 GAs, only one mentions a Guggenheim Fellowship in the lead: Robert C. Stebbins. So it seem that David's view of the significance of a Guggenheim Fellowship is shared by very few other Wikipedia editors.
 * Now to David's test: Would you use it in a one-paragraph biography of an invited speaker as part of a conference announcement?. I think it's an inappropriate test.
 * A speaker at an academic conference may be at any stage of their career, from newly-minted PhD to Prof Emeritus. Given that breadth of set, and an academic audience who would like such an award, then it probably is right to give it a slot in your allotted 150 words (or whatever the limit is). Especially for those early in their career, a Guggenhiem is huge; but for someone more established, it probably wouldn't make the cut for the 150 words. For someone like Diarmaid Ferriter or Kevin O'Rourke, let alone Roy Foster, it would be squeezed out by other more significant achievements.
 * So the GF is most significant amongst the group of recipients least likely to have an article on Wikipedia. If WP:NPROF was as lax as WP:NSPORTS, and anyone with a lecturership or research fellowship in university got an automatic bypass of WP:GNG, then a GF would be WP:DEFINING for a much larger set of en.wp topics. But since academic biogs on en.wp are subject to a non-trivial quality threshold, we have few articles on people for whom it is DEFINING.
 * Finally, David's comparison with Category:1950 births is misplaced. Dates of birth and death are basic biographical data, and are not subject to any WP:DEFININGness test. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 04:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * When you say that this information is only relevant to junior researchers, it makes me feel that you didn't actually read my comment, and particularly my remarks about the first link I linked. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, @David Eppstein. I meant to reply to that, but forgot.
 * The relevance of that info is hard to assess without seeing the search terms used. All you have demonstrated so far is that for some people, a GF gets non-zero mentions ... which tells us little.
 * Since you haven't explained your search, it seems likely that your search was for something like "Guggenheim Fellow", which of course you will get you some mentions; but selecting those hits would be just cherrypicking, without giving any indication of incidence. Please set out your search methodology, so that others can assess it.
 * If you want to make a meaningful assessment, then I suggest something like to find the mentions, and  to find the non-mentions.   If you try that on a random sample from the category, and actually find a non-trivial incidence, then I'd be interested. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 06:45, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * BrownHairedGirl, That PetScan search of only Good Articles is a great tool I'll use again! That's real-world measure of defining-ness for most categories. RevelationDirect (talk) 11:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * BrownHairedGirl, That PetScan search of only Good Articles is a great tool I'll use again! That's real-world measure of defining-ness for most categories. RevelationDirect (talk) 11:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per RD and BHG (DE's argument that some of these people mention it in their bio is much weaker if not irrelevant). DexDor(talk) 06:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete (but I have a narrow, uninformed view): Coming here curious, from Daniel_Robbins_(computer_programmer) where I see no no mention of the fellowship, no info' establishing him as either an academic or a Guggenheim fellow, and yet the article has the category. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Canals by century
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename.  bibliomaniac  1  5  02:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming:
 * Category:Canals completed in the 21st century to Category:Canals opened in the 21st century
 * Category:Canals completed in the 20th century to Category:Canals opened in the 20th century
 * Category:Canals completed in the 19th century to Category:Canals opened in the 19th century
 * Nominator's rationale: to match the format of the subcats, which are all "Canals opened in YYYY", e.g. Category:Canals opened in 1843, Category:Canals opened in 1906, Category:Canals opened in 1906, Category:Canals opened in 2012. Note that all three century cats are container categories, and that as far as I can see the year categories predate the century cats: e.g. Category:Canals opened in 1852 was created in July 2014, and its parent Category:Canals completed in the 19th century was created in December 2015.
 * The alternative would be to rename the year categories, since "completion" is the form used for most buildings-and-structures types: e.g. Category:Dams completed in the 19th century, Category:Lighthouses completed in the 19th century, Category:Bridges completed in the 19th century.
 * However, I didn't include that as an "option B", because in the case of canals that would have a different meaning. For those other types of infrastructure, the point of opening and of completion are usually roughly simultaneous. There is no benefit in opening a half-completed bridge, because it won't take anyone to the other side.  No point in opening a half-built lighthouse, because the light won't yet be on it, and the location of current construction is always exactly where any temporary light would need to be placed.  And a half-completed dam would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot, as well as hard to build with some of the scaffolding underwater.
 * By contrast, canals are often opened in stages. For example: the Oxford Canal in England, and the Grand Canal (Ireland) were both opened as an initial stretch and then extended.
 * So a shift to categorising by completion date would need to built afresh as a new set of categories using the new criteria. That may or may not be a good idea, but in the meantime let's make this set consistent.
 * Note that airports, which also develop in stages (grass landing strips are converted to runways, additional runways are built, terminal buildings are added etc), are categorised by point of establishment: Category:Airports by year of establishment, Category:Airports established in 1937, etc. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support -- This is a much simpler format. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. How do you tell when a canal is completed? Rathfelder (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support This seems reasonable and will avoid classifying canals in later years based on widening/deepening/extending projects. RevelationDirect (talk) 09:27, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.