Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 3



Cities in England

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, merging contents as indicated. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting cities in england by county


 * Propose deleting category>Category:Populated places in Bristol (county)
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Cambridgeshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Cheshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Cornwall
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Cumbria
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Derbyshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Devon
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in County Durham
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in the East Riding of Yorkshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in East Sussex
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Essex
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Gloucestershire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Greater Manchester
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Hampshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Herefordshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Hertfordshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Kent
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Lancashire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Leicestershire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Lincolnshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Merseyside
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Norfolk
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in North Yorkshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Nottinghamshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Oxfordshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Somerset
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in South Yorkshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Staffordshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Tyne and Wear
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in the West Midlands (county)
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in West Sussex
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in West Yorkshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Wiltshire
 * Propose deleting category>Category:Towns in Worcestershire
 * Nominator's rationale: As with Scotland this is a case of WP:SMALLCAT, there are 51 towns with city status in England, in most cases the city status is held by a district or civil parish but in 3 cases its held by Charter trustees, readers are better served by having them among the towns without city status. Of the 35 counties with cities 25 of them only have 1 (including the separate counties of Greater and the City of London), 7 have 2 and only 4 have 3 which falls below what we would normally expect for a category size. Category:Cities in England by region and its sub categories are already small enough and IMO even that could arguably be merged, note that Commons doesn't have any such categories. As with the Scotland categories I will make sure the articles and categories are put in "Cities in X region" (as such Category:Cities in London isn't nominated since that's a region) and "Towns in X county". Also if not deleted, Category:Cities in Bristol (County) should be renamed to Category:Cities in Bristol (county).  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 23:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Support - as for Scotland, below. (Albeit not quite as ridiculous.) Oculi (talk) 02:30, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Question, why shouldn't they be merged to their towns in county sibling category? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , it seems that such merging is what means by I will make sure the articles and categories are put in [...] "Towns in X county". —⁠andrybak (talk) 11:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I see, I overlooked that part. But if we agree that this is the right thing to do (it seems so) then the closer of the discussion can have the merge processed by a bot. User:Crouch, Swale just needs to add the merge targets in the list of nominated categories, that is all. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, I've now listed the merge targets in the nomination but I still intend to fix them after this is closed. Somerset isn't listed since the districts both have a town category that the cities are in.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * General support per smallcat. Could we rename it to "Cities and towns in X" as part of the rename? SportingFlyer  T · C  16:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Possibly but as noted city status in the UK is more like a sub set of towns since important towns have city status rather than being completely different, note for example that we usually have hamlets in the villages category when there isn't a specific hamlets category.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support but merge also to Category:Cities in England (etc.). In England, a place is a city because it has a royal charter as a city.  Traditionally, it was because it was the head of a diocese and thus had a cathedral, but the status has also been conferred on other large towns.  Their status varies: some are unitaries; some are districts; some are only parishes; I can believe that a few are unparished parts of districts so that the charter and regalia are vested in trustees.  This is nevertheless a significant distinction, which needs proper categorisation.  I do not like the idea of a "cities and towns" merged category: that takes us around a cycle that we solved long ago by adopting "populated places" to avoid arguments over classification boundaries.  I live in a village of 6500 people, which makes it larger than some places in my county that are certainly market towns.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No, that kind of merge is undesirable, since the cities are already in subcategories of  Category:Cities in England by region. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Cities in Wales

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting cities in wales by principal area


 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Nominator's rationale: As with Scotland this is a clear case of WP:SMALLCAT, there are 6 towns with city status in Wales, in 3 cases the city status is held by the principal area and in the other 3 by the community (and St Davids community is called "St Davids and the Cathedral Close") and readers are better served by having them among the towns without city status. As with the Scotland categories I will make sure the articles and categories are put in Category:Cities in Wales and "Towns in X principal area". Also if not deleted, Category:Cities in Cardiff (Principal area) should be renamed to Category:Cities in Cardiff (principal area).  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Does the nom mean ? There's nothing wrong with . Oculi (talk) 22:29, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * yes I did, fixed the link in the nomination.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 23:08, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support - as for Scotland, below. Oculi (talk) 02:27, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support - per nom. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 16:03, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support but merge also to Category:Cities in Wales and "Towns in X principal area". However the latter is probably rather pointless for Cardiff, where the city is the county borough; probably also Swansea and Newport.  Reasons under Engalnd nom above.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Category:Towns in Newport, Wales and Category:Towns in Swansea do exist so I will add them if the cities category is deleted but indeed there aren't any other towns in Cardiff so a merge isn't needed, just add to Category:Populated places in Cardiff.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Cities in Scotland

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:31, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting cities in scotland by council area


 * Propose deleting cities in aberdeen city
 * Propose deleting cities in city of edinburgh
 * Propose deleting cities in dundee city
 * Propose deleting cities in glasgow city
 * Propose deleting cities in highland
 * Propose deleting cities in perth and kinross
 * Propose deleting cities in stirling (council area)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT there are 7 cities in Scotland, each in a different council area, although it might be helpful to readers who don't know what council area a specific city is in this does make browsing difficult in that you have to go through different levels to find each city when having all 7 cities in one Category:Cities in Scotland and their relevant "Towns in X council area" is generally more helpful for readers. Also unlike many other countries (such as the United States) city status is just a special status for towns rather than being a separate classification to towns since in many cases its tied to an administrative unit while the settlement its self would effectively be a town. After this CFD I'll make sure that each city article/category is included in Category:Cities in Scotland and "Towns in X council area". For Northern Ireland Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 31 was closed as delete and the same reasons apply here. If not deleted then Category:Cities in City of Edinburgh should be renamed to Category:Cities in the City of Edinburgh.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Upmerge or whatever I'm supposed to say around here. These categories really weren't a very good idea, were they? Thincat (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Also in 4 cases the city status is held by the council area its self and the other 3 cases its not clear what its held by.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support - these are all ridiculous. Oculi (talk) 22:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 16:03, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support -- Merger to Category:Cities in Scotland and their relevant "Towns in X council area" is vital, but is pointless for Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc. where the city is the council area. Reasons under England above.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Category:Towns in Edinburgh council area exists but the rest could be added to the populated places in X council area.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:42, 8 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Peking opera singers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 20:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Peking opera singers to Category:Peking opera actors
 * Nominator's rationale: Peking opera performers are actors rather than singers, and not all of them are singers. Seanetienne (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC) edited Seanetienne (talk) 12:26, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SportingFlyer  T · C  20:29, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * rename: All categories in that tree exept Category:Cantonese opera singers and Category:Huangmei opera singers ( which are also nominated for renaming ) use actor not singer. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 13:36, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:New generation of African leaders

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting new generation of african leaders


 * Nominator's rationale: Single-entry WP:SMALLCAT for a thing that appears to be a subjective value judgement: the person's article mentions nothing whatsoever about her being a member of an organization called "New generation of African leaders", but rather it just seems to be a statement of personal opinion that she represents the future. But that's a thing which every emerging politician everywhere can always claim, so it's not a WP:DEFINING characteristic of a politician. Bearcat (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Created by a SPA,, focusing on Peris Tobiko. You may want to check as well, considering their similarly narrow focus and suspicious edit summaries. –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 18:22, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete as "new generation" is very subjective. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 16:16, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. An ill-defined and ephemeral criterion, it's equivalent to writing "X recently ..." in an article. Largoplazo (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lil Pump
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 13%23Category:Lil Pump

Category:Moroccan Western Sahara Wall

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. the wub  "?!"  00:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting moroccan western sahara wall


 * Nominator's rationale: Only has one article and I'm struggling to imagine what else could go in here. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:22, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete for Now No conceptual objection to category but I can't think of a 2nd article either. If we ever get up to 5 articles, by all means, recreate. RevelationDirect (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Speedy merge to parent categories per WP:C2F. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:38, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete unless other relevant articles are added. The category's creator added it to articles on two places, Nouadhibou and Guerguerat, that indicate no relevance of the wall to them, and neither place is near the wall (one is in another country), so I removed the category from them, leaving the eponymous article. I don't suggest merging. I'm not sure which parent category would be a useful one to merge it to. My best stab at it would be Category:Buildings and structures in Western Sahara. But I'm not sure what the point would be because the eponymous article is already in that category. Largoplazo (talk) 12:09, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete -- It is unlikely there is much to populate this with. The one article is well-categorised, but the subject may have a couple more, which might be added to that article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the Mediterranean

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 20:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the Mediterranean to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the Mediterranean Sea
 * Nominator's rationale: I think this is intended to be about the Mediterranean Sea rather than about the wider Mediterranean area. Consistency with e.g. Category:Shipwrecks in the Mediterranean Sea. DexDor(talk) 08:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * rename per nom --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename per actual category content. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename To match the clear intent of the cat. RevelationDirect (talk) 21:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom; but also consider "over" rather than "in". Not all of the accidents and incidents end up in the water. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC) (see, e.g., TWA Flight 847, Helios Airways Flight 522, and some others. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * "in" is the (current) standard for these categories - e.g. Category:Aviation in the Atlantic Ocean. I interpret it as meaning in that area of the globe rather than meaning in the water. DexDor(talk) 07:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Rename To cover the full name of the sea. Dimadick (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Shopping property management firms

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Shopping center management firms. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Shopping property management firms to Category:Shopping center management firms
 * Nominator's rationale: Per common usage across other categories and articles; compare shopping mall, Category:Shopping malls established in 1987, etc. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:05, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on the lede to the shopping mall article cited by the nominator – "mall" is a much narrower term than "property". A shopping mall (or simply mall) is a North American term for a large indoor shopping center, usually anchored by department stores. The term "mall" originally meant a pedestrian promenade with shops along it (that is, the term was used to refer to the walkway itself), but in the late 1960s, it began to be used as a generic term for the large enclosed shopping centers that were becoming commonplace at the time.[1][2] In the U.K., such complexes are considered shopping centers (Commonwealth English: shopping centre), though "shopping center" covers many more sizes and types of centers than the North American "mall". Other countries may follow U.S. usage (India,[3] U.A.E.,[4] etc.) and others (Australia,[5] etc.) follow U.K. usage. --Northernhenge (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no precedent for the term "shopping property" though. Would you accept "shopping center management firms"? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 00:11, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would encompass malls and other managed shopping properties (where outdoor parts of town centers have been sold off to shopping property management firms, and companies managing out-of-town shopping/outlet "villages" too.) --Northernhenge (talk) 10:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I changed the header accordingly if you want to re-vote. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 00:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: Changed to a proposal for "Shopping center management firms" instead. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 00:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as above --Northernhenge (talk) 22:43, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Object -- This is not purely an American category. "Mall" and "center" are Americanisms.  We need to find an ENGVAR-neural name.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * support --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 12:06, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Articles to be moved
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 13%23Category:Articles to be moved