Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 27



Honorary titles

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: option 1 rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 1:
 * Propose renaming Category:Albanian honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Albania
 * Propose renaming Category:Azerbaijani honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Azerbaijan
 * Propose renaming Category:Russian honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Russia
 * Propose renaming Category:Soviet honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of the Soviet Union
 * Propose renaming Category:Swedish honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Sweden
 * Propose renaming Category:Turkish honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Turkey
 * Propose renaming Category:Vietnamese honorary titles to Category:Honorary titles of Vietnam
 * Option 2:
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of Belgium to Category:Belgian honorary titles
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of the Holy See to Category:Holy See honorary titles
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of Sri Lanka to Category:Sri Lankan honorary titles
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of Ukraine to Category:Ukrainian honorary titles
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of the United Kingdom to Category:United Kingdom honorary titles
 * Propose renaming Category:Honorary titles of the United States to Category:United States honorary titles
 * These should be unified. uses adjectives while  uses the preposition, so this needs discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk • contribs)


 * A or B I'll leave the best format up to other editors to decide, but it should certainly be consistent. - RevelationDirect (talk) 23:54, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Prefer option 1, adjectives are mainly used in case of nationality of people. Option 2 is still better than the status quo, obviously. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * 'Support Option A/1. --Just N. (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 1 per Marcocapelle. Fooian should be reserved for nationality of people. Oculi (talk) 12:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mobsters sentenced to life imprisonment

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters sentenced to life imprisonment to Category:Gangsters sentenced to life imprisonment
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters killed during the Castellammarese War to Category:Gangsters killed during the Castellammarese War
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters from the Province of Agrigento to Category:Gangsters from the Province of Agrigento
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters from the Province of Palermo to Category:Gangsters from the Province of Palermo
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters from Corleone to Category:Gangsters from Corleone
 * Propose renaming Category:Mobsters from Palermo to Category:Gangsters from Palermo
 * Nominator's rationale: In relation to Categories for discussion/Log/2021 February 8 – Shaolin Punktalk • contribs 19:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support (per my own nom). – Shaolin Punktalk • contribs 19:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename per WP:C2C, this does not need additional discussion. User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk)  18:53, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, next time please use the speedy procedure for instances like this. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Women leaders of India

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting:
 * women leaders of india
 * women leaders of kerala
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SUBJECTIVECAT.
 * The parent Category:Women rulers has a well-defined scope: monarchs, regents, heads of state, and heads of government.
 * However, the term "leader" is much more vague, which has led these two categories to accumulate a mishmash of women in various senior roles, most of which fall well short of "ruler": some heads of government, various cabinet ministers, and at least one independence activist. These articles are already well-categorised in other ways, so no need to merge. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment There is also Category:Women leaders of China Furius (talk) 12:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep India but define better to cover Presidents, Prime Ministers, Chief ministries, monarchs and regents. Rename Kerala as Category:Women ministers of Kerala, but purge of any who do not fit.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Governing Council of the ECB
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 May 29%23Category:Governing Council of the ECB

Category:Buddhist sangha

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Buddhist sangha to Category:Buddhist monasticism
 * Nominator's rationale: Sangha means community; in Buddhism it refers to the monastic community of bhikkhus (monks) and bhikkhunis (nuns). Therefore the category overlaps with its parent. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Husbands of Servilia (mother of Brutus)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Family of Servilia (mother of Brutus). Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:09, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting husbands of servilia (mother of brutus)
 * Nominator's rationale: Probably worth discussing how many husbands make a category before too many categories like this one are created. I suspect that more than 2 husbands are required to make a justifiable category. Otherwise, it would seem to be a case of Overcategorization. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:15, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom but merge to Category:Family of Servilia (mother of Brutus). Marcocapelle (talk) 14:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete or merge per above, yet another SMALLCAT created by Dimadick.★Trekker (talk) 09:06, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I wonder now about the parent category, isn't Family of Servilia (mother of Brutus) a matter of WP:OR? She was rather part of three families, her father's family and the families of each of her husbands. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:20, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge as suggested above. I don't see this as an OR problem or an issue with the intersection of families through one person—it's just a convenient grouping of people connected with someone through familial relationships.  There are similar categories for historical figures all over Wikipedia, and if we argued that her "family" is actually three families, then wouldn't the same be true of everyone?  Referring to one's ancestors, descendants, and in-laws as one's "family", singular, is normal usage, even though it's also possible to create different divisions.  P Aculeius (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge both to Category:Family of Marcus Junius Brutus. Brutus is highly notable; his mother and her husbands barely so.  Family can be taken broadly to include step-fathers.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs written by Michael J. Powell

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting songs written by michael j. powell
 * Nominator's rationale: 3 members, all redirects to the same album. No help to navigation. Richhoncho (talk) 11:01, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Buddhist texts by genre

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Buddhist texts by genre to Category:Buddhist texts
 * Nominator's rationale: upmerge, only three subcategories in this container category, it would be more helpful if the subcategories are directly in the parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:23, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Organizations that oppose same-sex marriage

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting organizations that oppose same-sex marriage
 * Nominator's rationale: Per precedent of April 26th for "support" pair. See here. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:34, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete as both a textbook example of WP:OPINIONCAT, and in most cases as WP:NONDEF: until the 21st century, nearly every major political party everywhere opposed same-sex marriage. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:18, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and BrownHairedGirl's comment. --Just N. (talk) 11:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Elshad (talk) 20:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. --Storm598 (talk) 01:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs written by Rick Allen

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting songs written by rick allen
 * Nominator's rationale: This category contains only one redirect, and as such serves no navigational aid Richhoncho (talk) 10:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs written by Palmer McAbee

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting songs written by palmer mcabee
 * Nominator's rationale: Only two redirects in this category, both directing back to Palmer McAbee. No assistance to navigation. Richhoncho (talk) 09:51, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Carriacou and Petite Martinique

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: option A merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Option A: Propose merging to


 * Option B: Propose merging to
 * Nominator's rationale: duplicate categories. Option A merges to the same format as sibling categories in, while option B merges to the older category. Place Clichy (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Prefer option A as nom. Place Clichy (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Option A is the usual form. Oculi (talk) 10:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Option B. Sounds much better. --Just N. (talk) 11:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Philosophical theism

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:48, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging philosophical theism to Category:Theism
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, category contains only the eponymous article and a subcategory. As the subcategory also contains a link to the eponymous topic article, the subcategory is sufficient to keep. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:01, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:East Timorese otolaryngologists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Otolaryngologists and Category:East Timorese physicians. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting east timorese otolaryngologists
 * Nominator's rationale: Extremely specific category; unlikely there will be more than the one page it holds currently JoelleJay (talk) 04:13, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom, but merge to Category:Otolaryngologists and Category:East Timorese physicians. The whole tree of Category:Otolaryngologists needs simplification, by the way. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Why are we picking on otolaryngologists? Its a very well established medical speciality and there is no reason to think there wont be more articles.  There isnt much coverage of east Timor, but we have a well established policy of tolerating small categories in established heirarchies. Rathfelder (talk) 10:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No less than half of the country categories contain only one article. It is not likely to become notable as an otolaryngologist. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The same is true for other medical specialities. In most of them more than half the articles are about Americans. I dont think this is a persuasive argument.  We have a well established heirarchy by nationality and speciality.  Both are well defined, but clearly the intersections in smaller countries are likely to be sparsely populated.  But either you take the axe to the lot of them or you leave this one alone.  Rathfelder (talk) 22:47, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If other trees have the same issues they should be nominated too, obviously. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:11, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So we empty Category:Medical doctors by specialty and nationality apart from Western countries? If that is what you want had you not better nominate all the categories you want to remove, not just pick on this one?  And most of Category:East Timorese people by occupation has fewer than 5 entries.  How many of them do you want to remove? Rathfelder (talk) 07:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hold on, don't take it personal. Besides I am even not the nominator here, I am just supporting the nomination. This is about an occupation that does not by itself lead to notability, it is important to keep that in mind. The one East Timorese entry here is about someone notable as a politician, not as an otolaryngologist. (Even so, merging is a better solution than deletion imho.) Marcocapelle (talk) 08:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I "picked on otolaryngologists" because I randomly wandered across this article, saw this category, and was disappointed to discover there was not, in fact, an unusually notable pocket of otolaryngologists in this part of the world. This is my first CfD nomination, but from my reading of CfD my take is that the profession is not one that naturally leads to notability (the vast majority of practitioners are non-academic and do not publish research, so very unlikely to meet NPROF); the number of people that have practiced or will ever practice otolaryngology in East Timor is extremely small; and the number of those who are or may become notable is infinitesimal. I could have just emptied it and put him in the parent cats, but I saw Category:Otolaryngologists didn't have any stray articles in it already so thought it would be better to discuss. I'm fine with RevelationDirect's suggestion to upmerge (I figured since it's just the one guy it wouldn't be any more work to just add him to those cats manually). JoelleJay (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 11:25, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Dual Upmerge for Now to Category:East Timorese physicians and Category:Otolaryngologists. Please nominate more of these: the exception to WP:SMALLCAT for completing a set does not give a green light to whole category trees that are anemic. (No objection to recreating later if it ever gets up to 5+ articles.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If you think he should not be categorised as an otolaryngologist - and that is perfectly arguable, as the article doesnt say he actually practised as one - then just take him out of the category and let it be deleted as empty.  That does not mean that the category - and hundreds like it - is not legitimate.  But if we insist on 5 entries for occupation categories in small countries like East Timor we will seriously damage the usefulness of the encyclopedia.   Rathfelder (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not at all. They will still be in Category:Otolaryngologists. A category is not only useful when it is diffused by nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would argue that for doctors the context in which they practice is defining. If we are going to get rid of all the country categories of otolaryngologists the vast majority will be American.  I cannot see any valid argument for picking on this one intersection. How is this distinguished from Category:Australian andrologists or Category:Bulgarian pathologists?  They are all part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Rathfelder (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Two very different answers. One: Category:American otolaryngologists has not been nominated and if it would be nominated it will probably be kept. Two: even if Category:American otolaryngologists would be nominated and merged, why bother? Is an American otolaryngologist so completely different from a British otolaryngologist that they can't be together in one category? Marcocapelle (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We categorise all other professions by nationality, and yes, actually, the practice of medicine is quite different in different countries. More so than many other professions, because it is so tightly regulated. Rathfelder (talk) 22:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Many professions are too widespread and are diffused by nationality just for convenience to avoid too large categories. That convenience factor does not play a role with less frequently occurring professions. For example, Category:Chief investment officers has not been diffused by nationality, as it contains less than 100 articles. For medicine specifically, I can imagine the regulations are different by country, but the question at stake here is, are the biographies different by nationality? Marcocapelle (talk) 23:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Keep. Few professions are are more widespread than medicine, and it makes no sense to remove one twig from this very large (and growing) category tree. Bigwig7 (talk) 11:10, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Upmerge per User:Marcocapelle and WP:SMALLCAT. ORL is a specialty. This category is therefore an intersection of the legitimate nationality-occupation "Fooian Fooers" category and the specialty category . If this intersection is not a field of knowledge in itself, diffusion cannot be the only justification for it. Its content is otherwise already properly diffused  by other means. This principle can be applied to every specialty subcategory for countries and places where there is not enough content. Place Clichy (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So we dont subcategorise people by occupation in small countries?  Should you not list here all the other categories you propose to remove?  Rathfelder (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Physician is the occupation and it is fine to categorize by that. Place Clichy (talk) 21:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But which other categories of medical specialists and scientists by country do you propose to remove? There is nothing special about Category:East Timorese otolaryngologists. Would you like to remove Category:Portuguese meteorologists and Category:Hungarian audio engineers? Rathfelder (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why all the OTHERSTUFF? If those warrant upmerging as well they will be addressed in due time (although meteorologist is an actual profession and not subspecialty). JoelleJay (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Because this appears to be an attempt to change a long standing policy that when there is a well established hierarchical tree we dont need to worry about the general rules about small categories. If that is what is proposed it needs much wider discussion. Rathfelder (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The SMALLCAT exception rule is about singling out single categories in a tree. The objection here is to the tree, not to a single category within the tree. Because many countries have a very low number of entries this tree cannot be considered to be "well established". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You mean the tree of otolaryngologists, or Category:Medical doctors by specialty? Rathfelder (talk) 19:57, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean the tree of otolaryngologists. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:49, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Otolaryngologists are surgeons. The very small categories could be merged into surgeons.  Rathfelder (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that is good to keep in mind. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * But as far as Category:East Timorese physicians is concerned, we would still only have one surgeon, so I cant see much point in taking a few articles out of Category:Otolaryngologists Rathfelder (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.