Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 August 19



Category:Human Drama

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 04:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting human drama
 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary, per WP:OCEPON – eponymous categories should be avoided, and this only has one subcategory for works by the artist... the only other entry is the article for the band itself. Richard3120 (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 00:23, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete There are no spin-off articles. There is scope for expansion, but no apparent volunteers. Dimadick (talk) 10:38, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French people of Portuguese-Jewish descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  bibliomaniac  1  5  18:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:French people of Portuguese-Jewish descent to Category:French Sephardi Jews
 * Nominator's rationale: As I understand it - and I may be wrong - these are essentially the same thing. Rathfelder (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge While there are in practice Sephardic Jews who have no Portuguese descent (especially in France), the latter are almost all Sephardic, and often quite far back, so I think the specific categorization of where Jewish ancestors lived is unneeeded.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I quite agree and I am purging some of the excess Jewish descent categories.Rathfelder (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * 'Support merge and purging! --Just N. (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Support the merge as per the logic above. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, they are apparently no longer Jews (while they do have Jewish ancestors). One of them even was a Catholic theologian. Also it is part of a huge tree for X people of Y-Jewish descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Marcocapelle's explanation of the category scope. Dimadick (talk) 06:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Islamic people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Fictional Muslims.  bibliomaniac  1  5  18:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fictional Islamic people to Category:Fictional Muslims
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, WP:C2C per parent Category:Muslims. I am taking this to full discussion just in case it might be controversial. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Support The term "Islamic people" seems rather strange to me. A Muslim is a self-described submitter to divine authority. What other Islamic people would we exclude? Dimadick (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. --Just N. (talk) 20:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete There is precedent at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_24 and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_June_13 that religion is often non-defining for fictional characters. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 22:57, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (as nom) I agree with LaundryPizza that this should be deleted, as a recreation of an earlier deleted category under a slightly different name. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep and do not delete. Diversity in young adult fiction is a thing, where conscious efforts are being made to increase diversity in fiction. Portrayal of Arabs in film (the article covers portrayal of Muslims too) is also a thing. Tokenism is a thing, and I could go on...Point is that often a character being Muslim is a deliberate choice that is culturally significant.VR talk 21:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I randomly did a search in about 20% of the articles in the category and the vast majority did mention the word "Muslim", but some did not. I would also support moving this to Category:Portrayal of Muslims in fiction. That category would only include a character if they were deemed significant to popular media conception of Muslims.VR talk 21:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Support move to "Fictional Muslims".VR talk 21:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional city-states

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep.  bibliomaniac  1  5  18:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fictional city-states to Category:Fictional cities
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no need to categorize down to this level of granularity - a listing of fictional cities will be perfectly fine to encompass the articles of this type, including city-states. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge In real life many cities that were at one point city-states later became part of larger setups, or in the past were and later became city-states, the same things happen in fiction, in some forms of fiction without acknowledging the other set up.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If merged, it should be to Category:Fictional populated places because Category:Fictional cities is a redirect. But the articles are already in subcategories of Category:Fictional populated places so merging does not make too much sense altogether. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What I'd like to know is, can anyone explain why Category:Fictional cities is designated as an empty container category to begin with? Does that have anything to do with guideline concerns? I'll be able to form a view once I have the answer. Haleth (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not a container category, it is a redirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose This would remove the city-states from Category:Fictional countries. Dimadick (talk) 10:44, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Dimadick. --Just N. (talk) 20:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Plausible intersection, has 18 non-list articles, 8 redirects from various works, and 1 list. –LaundryPizza03</b> ( d c̄ ) 22:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Islamic superheroes
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, so rename to Category:Muslim superheroes. Note, this follows Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_August_19 where the parent category was not deleted (despite multiple precedents) but renamed to Category:Fictional Muslims. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting islamic superheroes
 * Nominator's rationale: It seems categorizing fictional characters by religion is (sadly) not allowed on en.Wikipedia. ★Trekker (talk) 06:06, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Note: for a previous discussion on the above, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_June_13. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete as a trivial intersection. Not all categorization of fictional characters by religion should be deleted, e.g. Category:Fictional imams or Category:Fictional Buddhist nuns should be allowed. If the category is not deleted, rename to Category:Muslim superheroes. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete religion can be noted in the article, but it is not defining enough to fictional characters to be worth categorizing by.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: There is also Category:Jewish superheroes. --IronManCap (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Muslim superheroes. It seems clear from a perusal of the contents that these characters' Muslim religious background was quite essential to their creation, and would be a defining feature of these particular superheroes.  bibliomaniac 1  5  06:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  02:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Reacting on User:Bibliomaniac15: you are right that the entries should be kept within the tree of Category:Fictional Islamic people if applicable. However, e.g. Simon Baz is an extraterrestrial police officer, so I do not understand why the article is even in this category, and Doctor Fate (Khalid Nassour) is Egyptian but could just as well be Coptic rather than Muslim. A manual merge is fine though. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:23, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Muslim superheroes per bibliomaniac  and Marcocapelle. "Islamic superheroes" imply that the character's MO is to champion a cause that is directly related to their religion or to appeal to adherents of the faith in real life. "Muslim superheroes" make more sense since it is more plausible that the religious identify is given as a facet of their overall characterization, as in the stories of the likes of Kamala Khan and Simon Baz. Haleth (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Religion is not particularly defining for most real people either. Because their religion is not the reason for their significance. The only exception are Jews, because they are a somewhat diverse ethnoreligious group rather than a religious community. Dimadick (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and above discussion. --Just N. (talk) 20:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Muslim superheroes as suggested above, that could have some significance and usefulness but Islamic superheroes is poorly worded and unclear. Dan Carkner (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename and strong keep. This category is as significant as Category:African-American superheroes. Both categories are about minorities whose portrayal in media is often controversial. There are several scholarly studies on the topic of Muslim superheroes and an entire book on Muslim female superheroes. I just looked at the first four entries in the category and in each case being Muslim was treated as a significant characteristic by media:
 * Simon Baz - religion mentioned in Reuters headline
 * Doctor Fate (Khalid Nassour) - "DC’s first Muslim hero to headline his own book"
 * Dust (comics) - her Islamic veil generated controversy
 * Faiza Hussain - her religion and ethnicity merited an article in the New Statesman
 * VR talk 21:57, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The nomination is not about whether these characters were Muslim or not, the nomination is about the fact that their faith is unrelated to their occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I get that. But as the sources show, their faith is quite related to the character. WP:CATDEF requires that sources "commonly and consistently define" a superhero as Muslim for it to belong in this category. Just looking up the first entry, Simon Baz, that seems to be the case (CBS NewsLA TimesReutersTheWeekTorWashington Post etc).VR talk 15:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:OCEGRS says we only create intersections with religion if the intersection is a notable topic in its own right. That is not the case here. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Why do you say the topic is not notable in its own right? There are at least two book length treatment of Muslim superheroes, Muslim Superheroes (reviews:) and Veiled Superheroes: Islam, Feminism, and Popular Culture. There are several journal articles on Muslim superheroes, a chapter on them in Muslims and American Popular Culture and some coverage of them in Representations of Islam in United States comics.VR talk 13:56, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Muslim superheroes and keep per . IronManCap (talk) 19:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete A distinction should be made between the Muslim aspect of their character being worthy of mention, and them literally being defined by their religion. An Islam in superhero fiction article is a possibility, given the previous sources, but it would be surprising to see "____ is a Muslim/Jewish/Christian/etc. superhero" unless their entire identity is based around it.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 10:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * did you read the sources I provided above? Religion is a defining characteristic of several Muslim superheroes. It is what makes these superheroes notable in some cases. In other cases, their entire costume is built around religion (eg. Burka Avenger). Nightrunner, for example, has been dubbed "The Muslim Batman". Kamala Khan has been described as "the studio's first series centred around a Muslim superhero." How is Category:Muslim superheroes any less legitimate of a category than Category:African-American superheroes or Category:LGBT superheroes? VR talk 00:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Apache Software Foundation members
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  18:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:Apache Software Foundation members
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:COI and WP:NONDEFINING (WP:TRIVIALCAT)
 * The Apache Software Foundation was founded by software developer Ken Coar and not coincidentally this category was created by User:Coar, the Wikipedia ID of the same Ken Coar. Whatever the COI origins of this category the bigger problem is that it's not defining: the apache.org homepage says there are 820 members and the articles in this category are known for being computer programmers but not for this association, except for Mr. Coar of course. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete, just membership of an organization is hardly ever defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Apache is not just a leisure club of rich people (where the idea of NONDEFINING would be a true claim) but a decentralized open source community of developers. The ASF is a meritocracy, implying that membership of the foundation is granted only to volunteers who have actively contributed to Apache projects. I'd suppose most stately honours (orders) that we've categorized have less meritocracy in it than ASF. I really don't see any good reasons at all to dump this category. --Just N. (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:18, 17 July 2021 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  02:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Further comment, people in this category are known as free software programmers or as open source advocates and already in those categories. They are not known for their membership of the Apache Software Foundation, which becomes very obvious when reading through the articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Marco, you're doing mostly an excellent job in category discussion but the above interjection is IMHO not helpful. This category is not about their profession as programmers and not about their ethics as open source advocates. It's not even about them as as individuals but about their membership in a meritocracy called ASF. It seems to me you have never been a member of an academy (or am I wrong?) which is an analogue: you're chosen to become a member but unless you're the president or business administrator it doesn't require much of your life time and not much space in your wikipedia article (if existing). It's your logic that is searching in the wrong paths, dear Marcocapelle. This is about society and not about individual activities! An academy wouldn't exist without its members which build its existence as a meritocracy (not economically) and ASF the same. And as surely no one wants to read in WIkipedia who is a Diner's Club member it is absolutely diffferent with meaningful academies and other meritocracies such as ASF. --Just N. (talk) 21:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not agree, this is definitely about individual activities, because categories are assigned to individual biographies. The relevance for society should result and has resulted in a topic article. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete; having read the above, I am not persuaded that membership of this body is defining. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Football (soccer) in Niue
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Football (soccer) in Niue to Category:Soccer in Niue
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per WP:C2D - Soccer in Niue. This nomination was opposed at WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Category:Football competitions in Niue to Category:Soccer competitions in Niue added 18 August
 * Category:Football leagues in Niue to Category:Soccer leagues in Niue added 18 August
 * Category:Niue national football team to Category:Niue national soccer team added 18 August
 * Category:Football venues in Niue to Category:Soccer venues in Niue added 18 August


 * Category:Football (soccer) in Niue to Category:Soccer in Niue – C2D per Soccer in Niue Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:Football competitions in Niue to Category:Soccer competitions in Niue
 * Category:Football leagues in Niue to Category:Soccer leagues in Niue
 * Category:Niue national football team to Category:Niue national soccer team (also C2D per Niue national soccer team)
 * Category:Football venues in Niue to Category:Soccer venues in Niue
 * You sure of those? I'm pretty sure the sport in Niue is administered via New Zealand, which calls the sport football. Grutness... wha?   05:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * These are subcats of Category:Association football in New Zealand which would suggest Category:Association football in Niue etc (C2C). Oculi (talk) 09:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Soccer is at least plausible per the defunct Niue Island Soccer Association. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * True. There is also Niue national soccer team which has played 2 games in its history, losing the first 14-0 and the second 19-0; one can perhaps understand a reluctance to attempt a 3rd game. Oculi (talk) 23:19, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * should this still be moved to full discussion? Marcocapelle (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Might be a good idea - this one's too knotty for speedy. It's also worth noting that the organisations and leage became defunct some time ago, possibly before New Zealand adopted the term football for the sport - which adds more complications. Grutness... wha?   02:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)


 * pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Suggest  Category:Association football in Niue to follow Category:Association football in Oceania by country and to agree with Category:Association football in New Zealand. Soccer is after all an abbreviation of Association football. Oculi (talk) 02:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Oculi's suggestion It may be that the sport was known as soccer in Niue ten years ago, but what football there is there (if any?) is likely to be under New Zealand jurisdiction now. "Association football" is a more neutral term in any case. Grutness... wha?   02:12, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 10:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Procedural relisting per above, four of the nominated categories were not properly tagged.
 * Support per C2D, to match parent article name - for now. I say 'for now', because based on the above comments from Oculi, there is a case to be made to wP:RM the parent article name, and them move the category after that. But, until that happens... GiantSnowman 10:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support as proposed by the nom. Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 07:28, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support To match the current main article title. (If that title is terrible, that's an issue for an WP:RM.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Procedural comment, I oversaw that the subcategories had also been nominated for speedy, so I added them only now. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  01:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per C2D, to match parent article name - for now. --Just N. (talk) 21:55, 23 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.