Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 6



Mayors of places in New Zealand

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge, except not the Invercargill one. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging
 * Category:Mayors of Birkenhead, New Zealand to Category:Mayors of places in the Auckland Region
 * Category:Mayors of Buller to Category:Mayors of places in the West Coast, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of Gore, New Zealand to Category:People from Gore, New Zealand and Category:Mayors of places in Southland, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of Howick, New Zealand to Category:Mayors of places in the Auckland Region
 * Category:Mayors of Invercargill to Category:People from Invercargill and Category:Mayors of places in Southland, New Zealand


 * Category:Mayors of Kaiapoi to Category:People from Kaiapoi and Category:Mayors of places in Canterbury, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of Mount Roskill to Category:Mayors of places in the Auckland Region
 * Category:Mayors of Rangitikei to Category:Mayors of places in Manawatū-Whanganui
 * Category:Mayors of Selwyn to Category:Mayors of places in Canterbury, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of South Taranaki to Category:Mayors of places in Taranaki
 * Category:Mayors of South Wairarapa to Category:Mayors of places in the Wellington Region‎
 * Category:Mayors of St Albans, New Zealand to Category:Mayors of places in Canterbury, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of Upper Hutt to Category:People from Upper Hutt and Category:Mayors of places in the Wellington Region‎
 * Category:Mayors of Waimakariri to Category:Mayors of places in Canterbury, New Zealand
 * Category:Mayors of Wairoa to Category:People from Wairoa and Category:Mayors of places in the Hawke's Bay Region
 * Category:Mayors of Waitakere City to Category:Mayors of places in the Auckland Region
 * Category:Mayors of Waitomo District to Category:Mayors of places in Waikato


 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge for Now While these places would have had more than five mayors, most would be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they exceed expectations and reaches 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * keep Invercargill category which is well populated (20 articles!); merge others with no prejudice against re-creation per RevelationDirect. Grutness... wha?   01:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC) are
 * Apologies, Category:Mayors of Invercargill is clearly a mistake. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:People from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear to Category:People from Sunderland
 * Propose renaming Category:Sportspeople from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear to Category:Sportspeople from Sunderland
 * Propose renaming Category:Cricketers from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear to Category:Cricketers from Sunderland
 * Propose renaming Category:Footballers from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear to Category:Footballers from Sunderland
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, as Sunderland, Tyne and Wear redirects to Sunderland. There was a procedural oppose against speedy renaming. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Category:People from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear to Category:People from Sunderland – C2D: Sunderland. See Category:People from the City of Sunderland and City of Sunderland. No need for one category to be different from the article when the other is not (especially since both are in Tyne and Wear). -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Necrothesp Oppose speedy The current name was chosen during this full discussion, which shouldn't be overturned speedily. Armbrust The Homunculus 16:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Noted, but this appears to have been when the parent article was indeed entitled Sunderland, Tyne and Wear! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Necrothesp It looks like that's not the case Sunderland, Tyne and Wear redirects to Sunderland since 2007, while the CFD took place in 2011. Armbrust The Homunculus 16:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Odd, given one of the comments was Support Renames to match title of parent article and reduce ambiguity. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I can see, the article was originally titled Sunderland, and then was moved to the longer title in 2009 over a redirect, and then moved back due to Talk:Sunderland (disambiguation) in 2017. That move was implemented in a way that made a mess of the history (discussed here). then cleaned up the mess by restoring the original redirect that was deleted in 2009, making it seem to you like the page had never been moved. * Pppery * it has begun...  22:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)


 * pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The main category is at Category:Sunderland which also didn't exist at the time of the January 2011 CFD and although the base category was deleted in July 2011 there is now generally a consensus to have separate categories for the settlement at least if the district's category is at a longer name. If this isn't renamed maybe Category:Sunderland (disambiguation) should be moved to Category:Sunderland and Category:Sunderland moved to Category:Sunderland, Tyne and Wear? though the other places are much smaller.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 23:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Seems very unlikely that any other Sunderland would vie with this one for primary topic. Grutness... wha?   14:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What about the other cases namely Birmingham/Category:Birmingham, West Midlands, Plymouth/Category:Plymouth, Devon and Carlisle/Category:Carlisle, Cumbria? This one looks far less ambiguous though so it probably makes sense.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Birmingham and Plymouth names are mistakes in the article space and should be renamed as they are not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That's not the case here, as Sunderland is the primary topic (as is Carlisle). - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep -- AS with Birmingham, sometimes a category needs disambiguation when the article does not: people do not always check before adding a category that they have chosen an appropriate one. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per Peterkingiron. While ambiguity in the article space isn't a problem, it can be it category namespace. Especially as exists. Armbrust The Homunculus 18:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename This category seems unlikely to be confusing as it's usually clear if someone is from England or Vermont and as a firm rejection of Birmingham/Category:Birmingham, West Midlands as a precedent. Being more concerned about confusion in Hotcat versus going to the wrong article values avoiding wasting a editor's time over avoiding wasting an reader's time which isn't a sound basis for an encyclopedia. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename. Clear primary topic and matches article title. These arguments that names that aren't ambiguous in article titles but can be ambiguous in categories have always been ludicrous. If one is the primary topic then the other one is too. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think its ludicrous, it is easy to add incorrect pages with hotcat etc without having any idea what the category's scope is but in this case that's not very likely given the size of this place compared to others and USPLACE.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename. I think the category name should follow the article name when it is the primary topic, even when it is technically ambiguous. This is the approach taken with, , etc. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose we need to be unambiguous in category names more than in article ones.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC) "For appealing the closure of a requested move, including one that resulted in a deletion or merger, if it appears to be against consensus or proper closing procedure, and after discussing with the closer."
 * Comment. The discussion was originally closed as Rename. Consistent with WP:C2C and WP:C2D, repudiation of mistakes. (non-admin closure) William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC) . I unlclose it because I believe it is not amenable to NAC--Ymblanter (talk) 20:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So it should be described here as a re-listing and templated as such, no? Grutness... wha?   01:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I just accidentally re-voted (and then deleted that). please template this. -RevelationDirect (talk) 03:20, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment — this is not a proper re-list. This was never taken to Deletion review. For !vote counters, it was 6:3:1. In closing this complex discussion that had languished for more than a month, I've read everything, including the speedy nomination, and the cited prior nominations, and the history log of the main article.
 * No admin agreed to implement the close, and we can not keep the discussion closed and the categories not acted on.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You refused to implement the close. Did any other adminstrators refuse? There's no record of it. This is a violation of the Deletion process, that I helped write nearly 15 years ago, and specifically allows non-administrative closes. You also failed to properly format the relisting, and failed to notify the closer. Why cannot administrators follow the rules?
 * Question How is no admin being willing to enact the decision helped by relisting? Won't we be in the same boat a week from now? - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * CFD nominations must be closed by admins, at least if the result is move, because one of the conditions of NACs is that discussions requiring administrative intervention are not eligible. Because of the backlogs, some non-admins sometimes close CFD discussions, and ask admins to enact the close at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working (the page itself is fully protected, and non-admins can not edit it). Usually we enact the closes. However, if I enact such a close I take the responsibility for the close, and I am only willing to do it if I, well, not necessarily agree with it, but at least consider it valid (another NAC requirement is that the discussion must be non-contentious). In this case, I was not prepared to take the responsibility and refused to enact the close. This is perfectly according to the policies, because I am not in any way required to enact it. No other admin showed an interest, and I had to unclose. The whole nomination page for 27 November was already done, and it was not an option to unclose the discussion and leave it at that page. I expect that in a week, an admin will close the discussion (in fact, any admin can do it any moment now, since the discussion is older than seven days).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing but didn't know the right process. Do renames go before WP:DRV? RevelationDirect (talk) 14:43, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Back when I'd made CfD and TfD as Discussion (instead of Deletion) many years ago, we didn't address AfD as that was already well established. I've always treated them the same. Requested moves are treated the same as deletion, and renamed categories are similar to moves. Could update the text: "For appealing the deletion of a page or outcome of a deletion discussion that appears to be against community consensus, if the request is outside of the scope of requests for undeletion, and after discussing with the deleting administrator or closer respectively."

William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Move review not deletion review since this CFD clearly has nothing to do with inclusion and I agree this shouldn't have been re-opened unilaterally even though the citation of C2D in close was incorrect (C2C yes per Category:Sunderland but not C2D since Sunderland is ambiguous).  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As noted in the original discussion: WP:C2D Consistency with main article's name. Better solid criteria than endless arguing. (I had you down as the only undecided. Are you decided now?)
 * C2D does not generally apply if the article's name is ambiguous even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator).  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Rename. Now 7:3:1. Consistent with WP:C2C and WP:C2D, also repudiation of mistakes. William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Clarification In the relisting above, User:Ymblanter indicated there had been broad admin concern about implementing the original close of the nomination but I was having trouble finding that conversation in this search. Can you provide any background so we can (if appropriate) reconsider our !votes? - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not think I said there was a "broad admin concern", it is just nobody has enacted the close for a week.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What we're supposed to do is take the rogue administrator to the administrator incidents to be reviewed by the Bureaucrats and Steward (assuming that process is still around). But we're short on CfD participants. Years ago we had fewer daily nominations with more participants and more closers. So we need him to actually do the work. We just need to rein in some administrators who have gotten a bit self-important. He's actually written: "I am not going to implement this close (and I believe the close of 5 December is not good, and definitely not in NAC domain), as well as any future closes by this user. I hope another administrator can look at them.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)"
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, may be you should first learn which processes are still around, and then start complaining about my breach of non-existing policies.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You have the shoe on the wrong foot. Justifying is a requirement for you:"Administrators should not revert a closure based solely on the fact that the original closer was not an administrator, based on consensus following this request for comment. Per WP:ADMINACCT, administrators are expected to promptly and civilly justify their decision to revert based on an assessment of the local consensus and application of Wikipedia policy and guidelines."

William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2021 (UTC) This is because administrators are not expected to blindly implement closes, but they are responsible for all the administrative actions they perform (for the sake of the argument, and not trying to relate it to the current discussion - imagine somebody summarizes an obscure discussion and decides we need to delete the main page - you do not expect me to implement this). I am willing (but have no obligation) to implement fully uncontroversial decisions (which for CFD typically means full consensus, no dissenters possibly except for the nominator). Everything else is easier for me to close from scratch than to see whether I can subscribe to the arguments of the closer.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This is not what I did. I believe that your close does not reflect consensus. I made it very clear from the beginning. May I please remind you again that I am not under obligation to implement your close, and any other administrator can do it any moment.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I will say that overall participating in CFD has declined (I attribute that to not displaying cats on mobile view) and I appreciate admins who are volunteering their time. I don't think that get's us to agreement on this item but I want to make that general statement. - RevelationDirect (talk) 16:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As another aside, non-admin closures are supposed to reduce the burden for admins. By closing a discussion but not being able to implement the outcome, the burden for admins is hardly reduced. That is sort of pointless, really. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It greatly reduces the effort, as they aren't required to think, just run the bot (so that we don't have to do them by hand). We don't want everybody to be able to run the bot; that's why the Working page is protected. (Heck, I used to run my own Botryoidal, but haven't re-qualified it for years, as that computer is long gone.) As closers are experienced and independent, there shouldn't be any second-guessing involved. Once you have them second-guessing every closure, that way lies madness.
 * feel free to provide further comments about this procedural aspect. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have done this above, but I can try again. The deletion policy says "Non-administrators should limit their closes to outcomes they have the technical ability to implement; for example, non-admins should not close a discussion as delete, because only admins can delete pages."
 * That's not policy. That's an essay. We have a Working section for non-administrative closures, where an administrator is expected to run the bot. If the administrator wants to challenge the closure, the administrator is expected to follow the review rules just like everybody else. Moreover, that's not the meaning of WP:CONSENSUS policy. Wikipedia doesn't need one of the most senior Internauts and experienced Wikipedians in the world to close unanimous decisions. I'm only interested in those that require thought, and usually where I'll learn something interesting.
 * What I cited is exactly Deletion process which is not an essay, it is a guideline. If you want to close discussions not eligible for NACs, and if you are so experienced, why do not you get an admin flag via RfA first? There is not single Wikipedia policy which would put me under obligation to enact your closes I disagree with. WT:CFDW is not a policy.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding on that, we can't expect any editor to blindly follow up on another editor's request, regardless of the nature of the request. You always remain responsible for your own actions. That applies just as well (or even more) to administrators. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - C2C and C2D do not apply anyway as there is ambiguity. Arguments that category names should follow ambiguous article names have always been risible. Oculi (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As noted in the original discussion: WP:C2C Consistency with established category tree names in Category:Wikipedia categories named after populated places in England; this is an outlier. WP:C2D Consistency with main article's name. Better solid criteria than endless arguing.
 * C2D also says that it doesn't apply if the title is ambiguous, which is clearly the case here. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I still say keep -- This is (I think) not the only place called Sunderland. Without the disambiguator, it is likely to collect articles on other places (see Sunderland (disambiguation)).  Peterkingiron (talk) Peterkingiron (UTC)
 * Duplicate !vote — see 17:17, 28 November 2020 — still 7 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 6 weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense."

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 05:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename. With 175,000 inhabitants, this Sunderland is by far the largest and the most notable one, way above Sunderland, Massachusetts at 3,700, all other places called Sunderland having less than 1,000 inhabitants. The confusion is unlikely. Place Clichy (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep categories need to be better disambiguated than articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Why? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * To avoid miscategorisation of unrelated articles. While being ambiguous isn't a problem in the article space, it would need constant maintenance in the category namespace. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:16, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * and don't seem to have this problem, even though there are some fairly well-populated places (which aren't the capitals of France and the UK) that use those names. As far as I have been able to tell, mis-categorization by confusion is a pretty rare phenomenon when we're dealing with a clear primary topic. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think Sunderland is on the same level of recognition as Paris or London. Armbrust The Homunculus 19:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Once we admit that some "needed" disambiguations are not actually needed in category space, we are dealing with an entirely subjective sense of "how big is big enough?" or "how known is well-known enough?" Where do we draw the line? It's easier to just have a fixed rule that the category name matches the article name. As a plus it avoids discussions like this for every case. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed — that's why WP:C2D exists. Better solid criteria than endless arguing.
 * William Allen Simpson C2D isn't just the line "Consistency with main article's name", it also contains exceptions like "This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is: unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator)." So this solid criteria explicitly says that it doesn't apply to this case. Armbrust The Homunculus 11:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Proof by assertion. Just because you repeatedly say it, doesn't make it true. As already has been noted by many in this discussion, nobody (other than yourself) is likely to mistake the original large city for small towns elsewhere in the world. That's why Sunderland is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
 * The fact that there is a primary topic for this, doesn’t mean that it’s unambiguous. Armbrust The Homunculus 20:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * But neither is "London" or "Paris" unamiguous. However, in these cases we recognize that confusion is unlikely when one of the cities is the primary topic. So why is this any different? The only answer I can see is that Sunderland is not as well known. But says who? If only we had a mechanism for determining such things. Oh right, we do — WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Duplicate !vote — see 19:36, 10 December 2020 — currently 8 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 8+ weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense."


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ancient Romans by gens

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:41, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Ancient Romans by gens to Category:Roman gentes
 * Nominator's rationale: This new creation duplicates a long-standing category. Categories for Roman gentes (families) mostly contain biographical articles, and it would seem weird to have a category for the gens and a different one for its members. N.B. gens and gentes is the same word in singular and plural form, both in English and in Latin. Place Clichy (talk) 17:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I was already aware of all this. I had created this as a sort of test (to see how it looked like) because I had my problems with the gens pages and gens categories being both grouped under Category:Roman gentes. I was accordingly planning to broach the subject on the wikiproject one of these days, but hadn't done so yet. Had the idea garnered no support, I was planning to revert it on my own, but it seems you came out ahead. I should have checked with the community immediately, but if you could give me (say) a week, I'd be grateful. Avilich (talk) 18:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In the meantime, keep. It's not redundant at all: a distinction must be made between individuals themselves on one hand and families, offices, or groups on the other. It's akin to the distinction between Category:Ancient Roman military personnel (which is within Category:Ancient Romans by occupation, equivalent to Category:Ancient Romans by gens) and Category:Military ranks of ancient Rome (equivalent to Category:Roman gentes). Avilich (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Further comment. Having a container category for gentes is just as reasonable as having containers for city, class, death, and occupation. Category:Roman gentes is not itself a container, and thus by definition not a duplicate of Category:Ancient Romans by gens. It was my intention that all categories of gentes be moved to the container (a job currently unfinished) because Category:Roman gentes is too large and difficult to navigate. Avilich (talk) 00:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. There's a distinct difference between articles about a gens and categories for its members who have their own articles.  For instance, "Fabia gens" lists pretty much all the Fabii who occur in historical and literary writing, while "Category:Fabii" includes only articles about individual Fabii or other topics related to the gens (including "Fabia gens").  But both of these are listed in "Category:Roman gentes"—"Fabii" as a subcategory.  The category created earlier today, and immediately nominated for merger, is intended as a container category for categories such as "Fabii, Calpurnii, Valerii", which will cut the size of the category "Roman gentes" nearly in half.  It's going to have hundreds of categories as is—it doesn't need to have hundreds of subcategories on the main page as well, nearly all of them corresponding with the categories that follow.  The container category seems like a good housekeeping measure, and it's being discussed at CGR already.  P Aculeius (talk) 04:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment — We created categories and container categories for just such as these. There's no technical reason to limit the number of sub-categories, any more than limiting the number of articles. We actually want well populated categories. So the family name should be the main article (category sort ) in the subcategory containing the individuals, offices, and groups. This is just a mess.
 * That's the point: they're not in a subcategory. They're in the subcategories area of the main category.  Hundreds of them.  All of them with names similar to the pages that belong in the category.  There's no worry about the category "Roman gentes" not being well-populated: it already contains hundreds of pages.  It doesn't need hundreds of apparently duplicative subcategories on the main page as well.  Placing all of those in a subcategory designed specifically for them is simple housekeeping.  And nobody is going to have trouble moving from one category to the other because of it: they all still link to each other.  They're just better-organized.  P Aculeius (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Circular and massive cross links are not "better-organized". They are harder to maintain. They are harder to traverse. We need a simpler organization. I'd prefer that Roman gentes had the subcategories, and the family names be moved to the subcategories themselves instead of populating Roman gentes. All that would remain would be the article(s) describing the meaning of Roman gentes. Adding a subcategory to contain the subcategories is completely unnecessary. We only do that for multiple techniques of organization (by date, by country). That's not appropriate here.
 * This is a 'multiple technique of organization': by person on one hand and by family ('gens') on the other – just like there are categories for offices and officeholders both. There's no circular linking here. Avilich (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Further, all gens categories (Julii, Pontii, etc.) would have had to be added to Category:Ancient Romans at some point anyway. This container category is just an extra generation. Avilich (talk) 16:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep:This category will streamline things a bit, as Avilich and Aculeius have said. Also, it's a work in progress, so let's give it some more time. HalfdanRagnarsson (talk) 12:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Seems to be a reasonable parent category. Dimadick (talk) 17:57, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Burials by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: do not convert. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Convert Category:Burials by country to article List of burials by country
 * Nominator's rationale: burial location seldom is a defining feature fgnievinski (talk) 14:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. Well-established tree with a considerable number of subcategories. And a burial location is defining feature, both for the person buried (in that it often indicates the place with which they were most connected), and for the cemetery. In fact we have in the past used these categories as indications of whether a particular cemetery is or is not notable. As such they are useful to Wikipedia editors as well as to Wikipedia readers. Grutness... wha?   15:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose - difficult to see what the nom is objecting to. It may be Category:Burials or it may be Category:Burials in Australia etc, but converting Category:Burials by country to the article List of burials by country will leave Category:Burials untouched and Category:Burials in Australia adrift of its grandparent. Oculi (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Oculi. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose I have some broad concerns with the burial categories, but removing parent categories would not be helpful. - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * oppose . There is no valid reason to delete this category, a navigation aid to readers to find the underlying articles. Hmains (talk) 01:48, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose if this were deleted all the underlying categories would not have the obvious navigational aid of 'by country' and a list with nothing but redirects to categories is not a good idea. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep -- This is a container, and a useful navigation aid. The one article should be moved to the appropriate subcategory.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose Burial location is a defining feature. Dimadick (talk) 18:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * support the location someone is buried at is not at all defining to their life or notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Republic of Venice encyclopedists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Republic of Venice encyclopedists to Category:Italian encyclopedists and Category:Republic of Venice writers
 * Nominator's rationale: Only 1. Rathfelder (talk) 11:59, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Dual Upmerge It's hard to think of a better example of WP:NARROWCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There were several similar in Venice which I am afraid I emptied without noticing there was only one article. Rathfelder (talk) 10:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Unlikely to receive expansion. Dimadick (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:58, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Propose renaming to
 * Nominator's rationale: now that all European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom are former constituencies, I suggest using dates to separate between the systems used between 1979 and 1999 (which were individual constituencies in all of Great Britain) and after that (9 regional constituencies in England and one each for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales). At present the categories named for former constituencies contain the first set only, which needs to be fixed. Place Clichy (talk) 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. "Former" no longer distinguishes the two sets, so dates are need. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:59, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename -- It all became former on Brexit day (31 Jan. 2020). The proposal is a good solution, but Wales etc might alternatively be .  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:21, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, effectively merging all into a new Category:Google Arts & Culture works to retain the files in the tree. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artist to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Artist, maker unknown, Korean to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Gujarat, India to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Peru to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Unknown American, late 19th century to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists


 * Nominator's rationale: Rename to plural. Merge others which were set up by a now-banned editor; these category names were presumbably originally generated by a template, but are now separately entered and therefore easily editable as normal. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support all. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete/Rename if Kept I don't know if an unknown author aids navigation under "works by artist" categories since it's not grouping by an artist and it seems like WP:OCMISC. If kept, by all means rename. - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete/Rename if Kept WP:OCMISC does not aid navigation.
 * Bringing WP:OCMISC into the discussion is completely fair, but then I would rename Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artist to Category:Google Arts & Culture works and revise the parenting accordingly, rather than a plain deletion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * No objection to creating such a parent category to keep these articles in the tree. -RevelationDirect (talk) 02:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Kempf

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, merging contents to the new Category:Google Arts & Culture works (see discussion above). Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Kempf to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artist
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Frantz to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artist
 * Nominator's rationale: Each of these contains only one file. The Google Arts pages on the paintings (Kempf, Frantz , see also https://collection.cooperhewitt.org/objects/18570129/ ) have no further info, so it appears that only the artist's surname is known. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate.
 * It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Unknown MAKER - Bardi people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, merging contents to the new Category:Google Arts & Culture works (see discussion above). Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Unknown MAKER - Bardi people to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artist
 * Nominator's rationale: Only contains one file. If not merged, rename to Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Bardi people. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete/Rename if Kept I don't know if an unknown author aids navigation under Category:Google Arts & Culture works by artist since it's not grouping by an artist and it seems like WP:OCMISC. If kept, by all means rename. - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. I also agree with RD's comment about the target category but the latter is not nominated now. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate.
 * It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Parliamentary private secretaries

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I didn't know who I could ask or where else to turn. Please can someone change these categories and add the word "the" to all of these categories so that it reads "to the" as at the moment it is grammatically correct:


 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for International Trade to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Department for International Trade
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for Transport to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Department for Transport
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department of Health and Social Care to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Department of Health and Social Care
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Scotland Office to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Scotland Office
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to Minister without Portfolio to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Minister without Portfolio
 * Propose merging Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to Department for Exiting the European Union to Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Exiting the European Union


 * Nominator's rationale: currently grammatically incorrect.

BrendaJones54 (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus that they are misnamed, no consensus on new name, or whether they should be deleted entirely. There are many related names in Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries.
 * Comment -- I am not sure that these categories should exist. A PPS is an appointment under a particular minister, not a departmental appointment.  It is personal to the minister and would not be inherited by his successor, after a reshuffle.  Does any one know better?  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - it should be 'Parliamentary Private Secretaries' in each case, subcats of Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries. The article David Duguid (politician) does not mention Department for International Trade, so there is indeed a suspicion that Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for International Trade is not a big deal. Oculi (talk) 22:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Support The nom is correct about the grammar. These are unpaid "pre-ministerial" positions, the first step on the ladder for MPs. Some articles don't mention them, but they should. They are defining; a minor position is defining for a minor career.  This is the highest position many MPs reach. Johnbod (talk) 03:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete/Speedy Rename if Kept Clicking through these I'm not sure they are defining. Certainly rename per WP:C2A if kept. -RevelationDirect (talk) 10:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining. --Just N. (talk) 15:48, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * These posts are indeed defining, but not in a departmental way. PPSs are attached to particular ministers who appoint them.  If the minister changes departments so do they, usually.  And they rarely don anything significant in the department. Rathfelder (talk) 18:59, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment — on relist, found most of them are missing the nomination:
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for International Trade
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for Transport
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department of Health and Social Care
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretary to Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to Minister without Portfolio
 * Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to Department for Exiting the European Union
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, Scotland had the wrong template. Fixed.


 * Delete. PPS is not a government or cabinet position. Main article describes this position as an unpaid assistant, a bag carrier, a position to begin your progress with. Admittedly, people who held these offices also held a number of other positions before or after (such as MP or government minister) that would be more defining. Adding categories with such long names for a position so minor in a career adds much category clutter for little value. This is worth a mention in article, not a category. Clearly fails WP:CATDEF. Place Clichy (talk) 09:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete for reasons in my comment above. No objection to merging to the general PPS category, but suspect that would be too big to be useful.  Being a PPS is a sort of apprenticeship that can be followed by becoming a minster.  AS stated, I think they are personal to the individual minister, not to the department where he is a minister.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:TransLink (South East Queensland) templates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:TransLink (South East Queensland) templates to Category:TransLink (Queensland) templates
 * Nominator's rationale: This rename is for consistency with parent category, Category:TransLink (Queensland). Techie3 (talk) 10:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:C2C, could have been listed for speedy renaming. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge Category:Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan to Category:Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan to Category:Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan
 * Nominator's rationale: Obaid Raza (talk) 10:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Question The main article is Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan. What was your reason for the change? - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't notice it, just because it already existedObaid Raza (talk) 05:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough: thanks for clarifying. - RevelationDirect (talk) 14:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose/reverse merge in order to keep the category name aligned with the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge — most of the articles in the latter use the "-e-" form, so let's keep them with the main article.
 * I've done the reverse nomination template.


 * Speedy Reverse Merge based on WP:C2A, typographic and spelling fixes. - RevelationDirect (talk) 14:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Prehistoric animals of China
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge Category:Prehistoric animals of Tibet, but no consensus to merge Category:Prehistoric animals of China, so merging target for Category:Prehistoric animals of Tibet is Category:Prehistoric animals of China. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Prehistoric animals of China to Category:Prehistoric animals of Asia
 * Propose merging Category:Prehistoric animals of Tibet to Category:Prehistoric animals of Asia
 * Nominator's rationale: Upmerge Having country-level categories of this sort is an anachronism, since China and Tibet are creations of historical, not physical, geography; all the other cats correspond to non-historical geographic locations. UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose merger of "China into "Asia because paleontology and geology still have a lot of discussion and study about Chinese-specific palaeo-localities ("Dzungar basin," "Maotianshan Shales," etc).
 * No different from ones elsewhere, like Burgess Shale, many more, but we have no Category:Prehistoric animals of Canada, nor should we. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:12, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, we have Category:Fossils of Canada which (as it consists almost entirely of articles about species/genera rather than actual fossil specimens) is Prehistoric animals of Canada in all but name. DexDor(talk) 07:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Support merger of "Tibet into "China, though, as I don't see it a policy or tradition to have separate categories for different provinces.--Mr Fink (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Manually merge both, as an unrelated intersection. Insofar there is discussion, it surely is not about the modern nationality of these animals. It should be merged manually because I expect that most articles are already in some other subcategory of Category:Prehistoric animals of Asia. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:05, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Oppose (at the moment) as the proposed merge would remove the articles from e.g.Category:Extinct animals of China and the nom does not provide a reason for that. DexDor(talk) 08:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The reason is that the finding of a fossil in China does not tell much about the animal's spread over the world. For example Cervocerus fossils were found in China and Moldova, so finding places can be very random. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * So should the rule be to not categorize prehistoric plants/animals below continent level or to not categorize them geographically at all? Note: There's e.g Category:Prehistoric animals of Madagascar. There may be cases (e.g. re India) where categorizing geographically is complicated. DexDor(talk) 11:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Good question. It may be better not to categorize them geographically at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Where I am headed is avoiding the anachronistic political categorizations. So Madagascar (which is geographical, not just political), Indian subcontinent, Australia (continent), plus all the other continents are fine, just not the categorizations that are modern countries. But what do you think? UnitedStatesian (talk) 01:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It does not resolve the fundamental problem that finding places of fossils are just random. Besides you run into problems with multiple finding places, how would you geographically categorize a species with finding places of fossils in India, Uzbekistan and Ukraine? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Like this?! We've been moving away from categorizing current species by countries etc and for prehistoric species categorization by country makes even less sense. DexDor(talk) 09:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose The Tibet category could presumably by renamed to cover the Tibetan Plateau, whose definition does not depend on political borders. Dimadick (talk) 22:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Categorizing by regions like that can introduce other problems - they often overlap, have gaps, don't have clear boundaries, don't mesh well with the rest of the category structure ... DexDor(talk) 07:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * The nom's argument that these categories should be deleted as "anachronistic political categorizations" is wrong. The category is for articles about animals that lived in the part of the world that we now call China (or, if you prefer, animals whose remains were found in China). Note: There are many other categories (e.g. Category:Cretaceous China) that could also be accused of being anachronistic. Marcocapelle's argument against categorizing prehistoric animals by small areas is more relevant. Thus, merge Tibet into China, but keep China for the moment. In the longer term (after other improvements to categorization in this area) an upmerge to East Asia or Asia might be considered. DexDor(talk) 22:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge the Tibet catagory to the  China one but we do not have any category on the other providences or states of other countries but at the same time we have categories on other countries 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (talk) 17:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Manually Merge as nominated after another 2 weeks with no discussion (matching Category:Prehistoric arthropods of Asia‎, Category:Prehistoric echinoderms of Asia‎, etc.); "by country or province" is an outlier compared to everything else in the Category:Prehistoric animals by continent tree. Everybody seems to agree that Tibet should be merged somewhere. The Tibet category is small, but then Tibet is not as well researched. There's no connection of prehistoric to China, and nothing whatsoever with modern PRC that sprawls over topological features. But the techtonic plates are fairly well understood. Thus, Asia is the better result, as a well-populated category in a well-defined tree WP:C2C. Let's update the guidelines to expedite future decisions.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:SCIRA commodores
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete as non-defining; noting that there is now a full list in the article that has been created – although whether that list is valid encyclopaedic content is another question. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:SCIRA commodores to Category:Snipe Class International Racing Association commodores
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no article SCIRA. (Scira redirects to Skira, an unrelated topic.) This abbreviation means Snipe Class International Racing Association. There is no article for that yet either, so using an abbreviation is particularly unhelpful in this case. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: In the long month, there is now a matching main article.
 * Delete per WP:NONDEF. The articles are already in the tree of Category:Snipe class sailors. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that, though there is an extensive categorization scheme of people who are heads of international sporting bodies: see subcategories of . Perhaps deletion is okay for this one because we don't have an article about the sporting body. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment -- The expansion is too much of a mouthful: the expansion would be better given in a headnote. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Lean Toward Delete/Neutral on Name This doesn't seem defining in the articles and there's not a main article, although maybe there's a possibility of improvements. No opinion on name since there's no main article to match it to. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * rename per nom. The main article doesn't exist yet but the key word is "yet". There is WP:NODEADLINE. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment (nominator). Now that SCIRA exists and Snipe Class International Racing Association redirects there, I withdraw the original proposal. I'm not closing the discussion because of the proposal for deletion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:14, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I maintain the comment I made above, suggesting Keep, but having the expansion in a headnote. The reverse should apply to the article as SCIRA is obscure, except to cognoscenti.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete — I've checked a few articles, but none of them mentions "commodore". Even a winner of the world race. Beggars belief that this was defining part of their lives. Beyond cognoscenti, this required personal research, as it is not mentioned by any WP:RS. Even the new main article has only a list taken from a handbook published by the organization. Leave it in the list.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Chinese contemporary classical opera singers
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Chinese western-style opera singers. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Chinese contemporary classical opera singers to Category:Opera singers from China
 * Nominator's rationale: These singers don't just sing 20th-century Chinese-libretto operas. Reveal the real feature without any potential ambiguity. Seanetienne (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Let us align this with the outcome of the discussion regarding Category:Chinese contemporary classical operas, which is still open. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile the discussion closed as rename as Category:Chinese western-style operas. Consistent with that, Category:Chinese contemporary classical opera singers should be renamed to Category:Chinese western-style opera singers or something similar. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:19, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus to rename, not enough discussion to determine target
 * Rename per nom. We need to think broadly about the best way to classify people. In the case of singers that means not classifying them by every possible small genre they could sing, but looking at the large grouping in which they participate and making categories that are both large enough for navigation and at least for some people keep down the number of categories we put them in. Opera singers is a fine enough categorization, especially considering we normally break that up further by which specific voice range they sing in. We should not be sub-dividing opera singers by the specific type of opera they engage in.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:30, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * First thing to bear in mind: Chinese opera is not opera, but the terminology for a form of musical theatre of Chinese tradition. "Chinese opera singers" (former title of this category) contained an ambiguity that led to a mix of "opera singers of Chinese nationalty" (what this category is about) and "performers of Chinese opera" (successfully separated into Category:Actors of Chinese opera). "Western-style opera singers" bears little sense, since opera (musical composition form) is western by essence, and it's probably natural instinct to associate "opera singers" with the European bel canto singing technique. "adj. +opera" is an unnecessary attempt to avoid confusion, because the two belong to largely separate category trees and wouldn't meet each other under natural circumstances, so no worries. Even if so, the category already contains a note to clarify. Plus, there is precedent of renaming "Georgian opera singers" to "Opera singers from Georgia (country)" to avoid ambiguity (the country or a US state). Seanetienne (talk) 17:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC) edited Seanetienne (talk) 10:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The fact that User:Seanetienne needs to clarify "Chinese opera is not opera" in bold is a perfect illustration of how ambiguous Category:Opera singers from China will be. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a reminder of the big context behind the whole argument. Anyway, one has to know that performers of any variety of Chinese opera are actors, not singers, therefore "opera singers" is enough, by intuition, to encapsulate the sense of "singers performing certain type of musical composition which is of European roots". Seanetienne (talk) 13:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Chinese western-style opera singers to match the most relevant parent.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:11, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking back, I feel the need to apologize to User:Marcocapelle for being quite aggressive during the argument. It may look like me in an immature attempt to defend the so-called "integrity of the definition". Seanetienne (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but I have never experienced it as aggressive. It has been a very reasonable discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Chinese western-style opera singers to match Category:Chinese western-style operas per Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 11.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Downlink
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:47, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:The Downlink to Category:WikiProject Spaceflight newsletters
 * Nominator's rationale: Looking for better solutions for a name as this category should be identified as being part of a WikiProject within its name. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 01:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Change: I think the best way to rename it would be Category:The Downlink WikiProject since the WP:CATNAME guideline states that "WikiProject" should be in the title. However it seems unnecessary to name it with Spaceflight since it is well labeled as Spaceflight already on the category page and would not add anything meaningful other than a longer category name since all pages in the category are subpages of WikiProject Spaceflight. Terasail &#91;✉&#93; 15:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Alt Rename Perfer Terasail's proposal but will support any rename with "WikiProject" added. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:44, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:47, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename as nominated. It is "WikiProject Spaceflight". The Downlink is a newsletter. The parents are Category:WikiProject Spaceflight and Category:WikiProject newsletters. But my single !vote won't make much difference. Relisted after more than a month, not much discussion.
 * Rename as nominated per William Allen Simpson. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete as empty (as a result of the AFD). Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting dadasaheb phalke international film festival awards south


 * Nominator's rationale: Category creator recently created an article on Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South as well as two content forks. This appears to be a non-notable festival that doles out awards like any other Indian award mill, and the article creator has subsequently added this award to a score of articles, and now appears to be using category space to create sprawl. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Related Nom There is an AFD nomination for the main article located right here. You input (pro/con/other) is always welcome. - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete Per WP:C2F only one eponymous article, Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South. I take no position on the AFD discussion but, if successful, it will empty this category. - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Indian film awards per WP:SMALLCAT. It probably does not require merging to all parent categories as WP:C2F requires. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Honorary citizens of Baikonur
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:Honorary citizens of Baikonur
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD and WP:OVERLAPCAT)
 * Baikonur or "Star City" was the center of the Soviet space program (and now the Russian space program) and the city gave out a the Honorary Citizen of Baikonur award to Soviet cosmonauts (and now Russian cosmonauts). These biography articles are already well grouped under Category:Soviet cosmonauts (and Category:Russian cosmonauts). The creator of the category added an External Link to all the articles (see this edit history) but they otherwise make no mention of the award.
 * These municipal "honory citizen" awards are too common to be defining which is why Valeri Kubasov's article lists 11 of them (not counting this one). I copied the current category contents right here so no work is lost if anyone wants to find reliable sources to establish notability to create a main article. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete, another obvious case of WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete this is a clear over categorization by award.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heroes of Kosovo
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Heroes of Kosovo
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD & WP:OVERLAPCAT)
 * The Hero of Kosovo is a contemporary award and about half of the contents are retroactively inducted historical figures like Isa Boletini, Shaban Polluzha and Idriz Seferi. The rest are more recent members of the Kosovo Liberation Army who are already well categorized under Category:Kosovo Liberation Army soldiers. The award doesn't seem defining to either group where the award consistently gets mentioned in passing. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete, another obvious case of WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Rathfelder (talk) 15:57, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete another non-defining award.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.