Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 July 19



Category:Sleeper hits

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting sleeper hits
 * Nominator's rationale: completely arbitrary classification: what is the consistent criteria that would let articles categorized as "sleeper hits" pass WP:CATV? Joeyconnick (talk) 20:03, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Similar to "Cult film" and "cult television series" categories, which have consistently been deleted per WP:SUBJECTIVECAT: see for example discussions in 2006, 2007a, 2007b, 2010, 2012, 2019. We don't have, , nor , and "Sleeper hit" isn't any less subjective. What country, genre, or time period are we talking about? Works can be big in foreign countries before (or despite even never) becoming a "hit" in their home country. And does "hit" mean making the top 10 playlist? Top 100? What is the box office threshold and timeframe for defining a hit or sleeper hit? Just Dance (song) is currently in "", despite becoming a club hit and making (but not topping) the Billboard Hot 100 almost instantly. It is true that many films and creative works are verifiably (albeit subjectively) called "sleeper hits" or "cult classics" by reliable sources. It is not true that this makes the label defining.  There are many trivial or subjective categories for films and recorded works which could probably use some discussion or heavy purging (, , , etc.). We don't need more. --Animalparty! (talk) 00:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Sleeper hits exceed expectations but those expectations are themselves subjective. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete POV Espngeek (talk) 19:24, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete There is no agreed upon formala or rule that would tell us how to even calculate a hit, even less so what sort of formula we would need to determine something is a sleeper hit.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per above -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Asian-American Western (genre) films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting asian-american western (genre) films
 * Nominator's rationale: Delete per WP:SMALLCAT as there is little chance of the category being expanded. The sole article seems to be over-categorised. No Great Shaker (talk) 19:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support Delete it immediately, I cannot find any more western films that were focused on Asian Americans SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What about Thousand Pieces of Gold, The Jade Pendant, The Outsider, Broken Trail... I'll admit that the current name for the category is confusing, but there are other westerns focussed on Asian-Americans. Grutness... wha?   02:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Those are all American films which feature Chinese or Japanese characters who are not necessarily American. So, as you say, the title of the category is confusing and we need to be clear about its purpose. Perhaps the most famous Western that features a character from the Far East is Red Sun but that was a European production set in America. The article in the category, Shanghai Noon, is a joint USA/Hong Kong venture and I think we need to focus on production rather than characters because the latter approach can easily become subjective. For example, The Magnificent Seven (2016 film) includes Lee Byung-hun playing a Korean but he is only one of nine stars in the film so would that qualify for this category? No Great Shaker (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. As I said, the exact idea behind this category is a bit ambiguous. Grutness... wha?   12:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I may be conflating Once Upon a Time in China I (which had a subplot about Chinese being trafficked to America to work on the railroads) and Once Upon a Time in China and America (which I haven't seen but was apparently a sequel set not that long after the first one, in America), but... well I think this category is meant to refer to the ethnicity of the actors, not the characters. Then again, a Chinese film starring Chinese actors playing Chinese characters in America is kinda beside the point, as it doesn't seem like any Asian Americans were involved... Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 11:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Question, is Asian-American Western (genre) a genre at all? Marcocapelle (talk) 09:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say not. They are by single nationality only, like Japanese. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't so expect so either. Then delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete I also would point out that categorizing based on the race of cast members/characters is not a good move.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Despite what surveys apparently show a substantial number of (white?) Americans believe, Jackie Chan is not an Asian American (did the creator of this cat think he was?); maybe if contemporary Hong Kong (China) allowed dual citizenship, he would be, but he is not, nor was his character in Shanghai Noon, in which he played a Ch'ing imperial guard. The film's director and all of its writers and producers appear to be white; not sure if they have any connection to "Asia" outside having been involved in the production of a Jackie Chan vehicle (with the exception of one Britisher and one "South African-born American", our articles on all of them just call them "American"; my assumption that they are specifically white Americans is based on an admittedly unscientific and problematic Google image search). Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 11:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * True, but they are unlikely to be Asian, and if it was truly defining than it would be placed in the article. On the other hand the female lead in the film Lucy Liu probably is Asian-American, seeing as how her parents were both from China, but even in her case she is just called American in the article, and a film does not become part of a genre just by virtue of the lead actresses ethnicity, down that road lies madness. Also, if this is a thing why not call it more accurately Category:Chinese American westerns, especially since we categorize by ethnicity not race?John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The CASAS test which I administer as part of my job asks for race, and gives the options of White, Black/African-American, Asian, Native American, Alaskan Native, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander and Filipino. I find it very odd that Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnmaese, Malaysian, Indonesians and many other groups are all cobbled together, but Filipinos are a seperate group. They also have a question on being Hispanic or not Hispanic. My work for the Career Center in Detroit also has me do an intake where Filipinos are cobbled with all other Asians, Alaskan Native is an alternate reading on the same line as Native American so you cannot actually distinguish which one you are, Native Hawaiian is cobbled together with "other Pacific Islander". However on ethnicity we have options of Hispanic/Latino, Middle Eastern and "none reported". I have to admit I think all the ethnicty questions and gathering I have seen are just downright horrible.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:High schools in Citrus Heights, California

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: dual merge (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:High schools in Citrus Heights, California to Category:Citrus Heights, California
 * Nominator's rationale: Dual merge to . This is a WP:SMALLCAT holding only 2 articles. User:Namiba 14:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support merging as probably won't have much potential for growth. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 16:01, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Western (genre) drama films by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge all.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Western (genre) drama films by country to Category:Western (genre) films by country
 * Propose merging Category:Argentine Western (genre) drama films to Category:Argentine Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Australian Western (genre) drama films to Category:Australian Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Austrian Western (genre) drama films to Category:Austrian Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:British Western (genre) drama films to Category:British Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Canadian Western (genre) drama films to Category:Canadian Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Czech Western (genre) drama films to Category:Czech Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:French Western (genre) drama films to Category:French Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:German Western (genre) drama films to Category:German Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Mexican Western (genre) drama films to Category:Mexican Western (genre) films
 * Propose merging Category:Spanish Western (genre) drama films to Category:Spanish Western (genre) films
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a follow-up to the discussions on 14 July and 18 July based on the essential points that virtually all Western films are dramas and the "Western drama" categories created by User:Sc2353 are unnecessary. No Great Shaker (talk) 10:44, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support iff the proposals of the 14th and yesterday of removing the "drama" layer go ahead. Grutness... wha?   13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom assuming the earlier two succeed. Oculi (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom usually Westerns have elements of drama SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 20:17, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom (and the above mentioned provisos).  Butler Blog   (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Eddie Blick (talk) 01:14, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support This whole western drama films category was a bridge too far.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Criticism of political correctness
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 August 22%23Category:Criticism of political correctness

Category:Lost Western (genre) drama films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Lost Western (genre) films.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:26, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Lost Western (genre) drama films to Category:Lost Western (genre) films
 * Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. This is a follow-up to the discussions on 14 July and 18 July based on the essential points that virtually all Western films are dramas and the "Western drama" categories created by User:Sc2353 are unnecessary. No Great Shaker (talk) 10:31, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support iff the proposals of the 14th and yesterday of removing the "drama" layer go ahead. Grutness... wha?   13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom assuming the earlier two succeed. Oculi (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, with the caveat, etc.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 16:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom (with the above provisos).  Butler Blog   (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Eddie Blick (talk) 01:15, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Emperors from Nanjing

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:26, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting emperors from nanjing
 * Propose deleting emperors from xi'an
 * Propose deleting emperors from beijing
 * Nominator's rationale: delete' per WP:NONDEF, the fact that Nanjing and Xi'an are former capitals is a defining characteristic of these cities, but it is not defining for any emperor. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Ruling in the capital city of a country is not defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:African-American female composers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename all.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:26, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:African-American female composers to Category:African-American women composers


 * Nominator's rationale: Aiming for both accuracy & consistency, as categories seem to be moving from the language of "female" to "women" (e.g. the adjacent category African-American women musicians). I assume there's probably been debate around this sort of thing, so I'm just mentioning a few smaller categories & more obvious examples––for example, Women musicians by instrument has 13 subcategories, & I've included the only 3 that are still using "female" (drummers, percussionists, singers).

Knifegames (talk) 03:53, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - this is the predominant convention in Category:African-American women, but not in Category:Female composers by nationality (cf Category:American female composers), and there is Category:Female musicians. There was a long and inconclusive cfd discussion in 2013: 2013 April 27#Women/Men or Female/Male as an adjective. Oculi (talk) 08:03, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, and also resulting from sex and gender distinction. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:33, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support composing is something done almost solely by adults, and we use women to describe adult human females.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.