Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 9



Category:Fans

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Ventilation fans. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:35, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Fans to Category:Fans (machines)
 * Nominator's rationale: Move to some title and possibly split to Category:Hand fans since Fan/Fans is ambiguous and the head article is at Fan (machine). There has been some debate about primacy and natural disambiguation at Talk:Fan (machine) but it seems likely that there is no primary topic and bracket disambiguation is best for the article however due to the pluralization of category names a term like Category:Ventilation fans may be better per Commons.


 * Category:Fans to Category:Fans (machines) – C2D per Fan (machine) since Fan/Fans is ambiguous.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:40, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Crouch, Swale the category includes hand fans, which are not machines. TSventon (talk) 11:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably I should start a full CFD but this probably still does need moving as ambiguous.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:30, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Commons uses "ventilation fans", which may be appropriate. Meanwhile it might be useful to split the contents between hand fans and machines.– Fayenatic  L ondon 12:02, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

 Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:15, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support alt rename to Category:Ventilation fans since that still may include hand fans as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Simple is best here,  "ventilation fans" is an unusual and strange word construction.  All of the category members are fans, so the current version is accurate - include a hatnote to Category:Fandom if you want, although I think the liklihood of confusion is incredibly low, as categories are only seen "in context" such that nobody should be confused.  SnowFire (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The general rule is that categories are less ambiguous than articles such as Plymouth/Category:Plymouth, Devon and Perth/Category:Perth, Western Australia and its quite easy to add incorrect categories with things like hotcat.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:42, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I support moving it away from Fans. I don't have a good preference at the moment for a better title. Just to make it clear, I oppose leaving the category at "Fans". Gonnym (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to . I also support a split between new subcats for Hand fans and Fans (machines). – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:50, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Korean Buddhism writers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Korean Buddhism writers to Category:Korean Buddhists and Category:Buddhist writers
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, currently only one article. Note that currently only about 15% of South Koreans and 5% of North Koreans are Buddhists. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tatar Wikipedians

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting tatar wikipedians
 * Nominator's rationale: Overlooked Wikipedians by ancestry category, populated solely by a userbox that says This user is of Tatar ancestry. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Both of the people in this category seem to be actual inhabitants of Tartarstan. I can see how it would be useful to be able to locate such users if (e.g.) an article on something in Tartarstan needed comment from someone able to read Tartar and comment on the reliability of local sources. OTOH there are only two users in the cat... Furius (talk) 22:24, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:User tt already exists, and is much better populated, if you are looking for users who speak the language. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:45, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per later comment of nominator. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:36, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American Wikipedians of Jewish descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting american wikipedians of jewish descent
 * Nominator's rationale: Overlooked Wikipedians by ancestry category. The sole member is already in both parent categories, so this is redundant as well. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The cat is independent because one can be of Jewish descent but not be able to say that one is Jewish. Yes, it is small, but could be larger for the first reason. Many intermarriages occur and kids later decide if they want to join these faiths of one parent or be a confessor of a totally different one yet have a strong identity with the heritage.Church of the Rain (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete, it is difficult to see how this can lead to some kind of user collaboration. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per Marcocapelle. There are indeed people who strongly identify with non-Judaity with Jewish ancestry, but this seems to be irrelevant to Wikipedia collaboration. Place Clichy (talk) 11:35, 12 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:DYK

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:41, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:DYK to Category:Wikipedia Did you know
 * Nominator's rationale: While trying to find a better name for DYK, I couldn't find one, as the scope of the categories appeared the same at both categories. Both categories use the same text and message boxes and have the same name. Even Template:DYK, leads to Template:Did you know. As as a result of this strange naming convention, the sub-pages use an even stranger (and unnecessary) naming style. If however there is some real distinction between these categories, this category should be renamed to better identify that distinction. Gonnym (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge As nominated (or to any alt rename that starts with "Wikipedia"). - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Animated western (genre) animation

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:00, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting animated western (genre) animation
 * Nominator's rationale: Category is redundant with the existing Category:Animated western (genre) television series (There is currently nothing in it as the only two items have been retagged to the more appropriate category already)  Butler Blog   (talk) 12:52, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment This category has been emptied. It could have been CSD C1 instead. Liz Read! Talk! 01:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Joseon Dynasty people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:59, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Joseon Dynasty people to Category:Joseon people
 * Propose renaming Category:Joseon dynasty Buddhists to Category:Joseon Buddhists
 * Propose renaming Category:Joseon Dynasty politicians to Category:Joseon politicians
 * Propose renaming Category:Joseon Dynasty writers to Category:Joseon writers
 * Nominator's rationale: Here, Joseon is the country, not the 20 rulers. This was already done for Goryeo, for the Joseon article itself, ... and for the Category:Joseon painters, see the Categories for discussion/Log/2021 May 29 page (item 2). Pldx1 (talk) 10:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy Rename All Per WP:C2D: Joseon was renamed through a formal RM in 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RevelationDirect (talk • contribs)
 * support -- This refers to Korea 1392-1897. Alternatively Category:Joseon period people.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Protestant megachurches

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Category:Protestant megachurches in the United States could also be nominated for renaming. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:58, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Protestant megachurches to Category:Megachurches
 * Nominator's rationale: These are the same thing. Parent is already a child of . Main article Megachurch has a sourced statement that "3,000 individual Catholic parishes have 2,000 or more attendants for an average Sunday Mass, but they are not called megachurches as that is a specifically Protestant term." List of megachurches in the United States explicitly excludes large Catholic parishes because "the term megachurch in common parlance refers to Protestant congregations". As a result, content is split randomly between the two categories. Place Clichy (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge Rathfelder (talk) 10:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Some Roman Catholic congregations are large enough to meet any meaningful definition of megachurch. We should stop treating this as if it is a uniquely Protestant thing when it is not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Size is not the issue. I don't think that anybody would call the St. Peter's Basilica a megachurch. And even the Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine in NYC, which is fourth on the list of largest church buildings, would probably not be called that. Place Clichy (talk) 19:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge, this is not about a particular size of the churches, it is instead a matter of language, namely whether these churches are called megachurches. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bini

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 19:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting bini
 * Nominator's rationale: With just a main article Bini (group) and the subcategory Category:Bini (group) songs, there's not enough here for an eponymous category. (If kept, rename to .) Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:01, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Not sure why it was created in the first place. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 15:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Leadership Institute alumni and associates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:57, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:Leadership Institute alumni and associates
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:PERFCAT & WP:OCASSOC)
 * I certainly can't claim WP:SMALLCAT here because the Leadership Institute has trained over 160,000 people with their classes. The LI is an American conservative organization that trains potential activists in public speaking, running for political office, and online campaigns. According to their official web site, those trainings generally last from a few hours to a couple days and, despite the "alumni" wording, these are not college credit courses. I'm not sure if Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell, or Karl Rove were instructors, students, or had some other relationship since none of those articles even mention this organization. -


 * Delete -- This institution provides seminars, apparently not long term training progams (similar to degrees). As such, being the alumnus/a is too insignificant to need a category.  A category for staff might be suitable.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:29, 13 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People expelled from Freemasonry

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:People expelled from Freemasonry
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:TRIVIALCAT)
 * Being expelled from an organization certainly can be defining like with Category:People expelled from public office and Category:People excommunicated by the Catholic Church. But, none of the 3 articles in this category seemed defined by being thrown out of this fraternal lodge:
 * J. Frank Hickey was thrown out for stealing their stash of alcohol.
 * Anders Behring Breivik was thrown out after he committed an act of terrorism unrelated to Freemasonry.
 * Licio Gelli was a member of the splinter masonic offshoot Propaganda Due criminal organization (which is defining) but he's in this category because the legitimate Italian Freemasons threw him out for that involvement.
 * WP:SMALLCAT is likely not a problem here since I'm sure there are plenty of other people who were in the Freemasons, Elks, and Odd Fellows who either embezzled from their lodge or or otherwise embarrassed the group so they got their membership revoked. Neither scenario seems defining though. (Mr. Gelli is already in Category:Members of Propaganda Due so he's well categorized.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:06, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. As membership to Freemasonry is in principle secret, so would be being expelled from it. As a result, the scope of this category could only be applied to very special borderline cases, introducing a strong bias and limiting the availability of reliable sources. Place Clichy (talk) 08:42, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Um... membership in the Freemasons is NOT "in principle secret". Lodge membership roles are a matter of public record (often by law). Expultions are published in annual proceedings. If you want to know if someone is/was a Mason, contact the Grand Lodge in the relevant State or Country and they will be happy to help. Blueboar (talk) 09:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * In which country exactly does law make it mandatory for masonic lodges (or any other organization) to reveal the list of their members to anyone who asks? Place Clichy (talk) 00:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - This was created as a sub-cat of category:Freemasons. At that time, it was thought that the defining nature of the parent category carried over into its sub-cats. The idea was that if merely joining a fraternity (for whatever reason) is considered defining, then being expelled from that fraternity (for whatever reason) would also be defining (if not more so). I have no problem deleting if this is no longer the case ... but, if so, we should probably re examine whether merely joining the fraternity is really defining. Blueboar (talk) 09:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I do have broader concerns with the Masonic membership categories as well and we've previously deleted membership categories for the Elks, Knights of Columbus, etc. To the best of my knowledge, those other groups never had an "expelled" subcategory so I thought it made sense to discuss this individually before I make that larger nomination but, alternatively, maybe don't want to delete this one in isolation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:29, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I would not be completely against getting rid of the membership categories (or perhaps significantly restructuring them)… I just wanted to explain the rational for creating the expulsion category in the first place. Blueboar (talk) 19:32, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Being removed only is defining for religious bodies, and even there it may be more open to debate than some realize. Religion is a more defining role than the freemansons are. Beyond this, freemasonry is technically not something made widely public, while most religions make it very public who is a member.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * @Johnpacklambert… would you extend this to joining? Ie would you say that being a freemason (in the first place) is not defining? Blueboar (talk) 12:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.