Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 September 28



Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: upmerge (which is effectively "delete", as the category is empty). While there are disagreements regarding the application of WP:WESTBANK and its shortcomings, there is a general consensus that this category is controversial and created more problems than it sought to solve; re-categorization that took place without consultation at relevant and interested WikiProjects and discussion boards exasperated the issue.  ✗  plicit  06:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting israeli settlements in the judea and samaria area
 * Nominator's rationale: Pr this category should not exist, please change back to  Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank Huldra (talk) 21:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Huldra what do you mean by "change back"? TerraCyprus (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Huldra please cite the part which says so. When discussing specifically the administrative area of Judea and Samaria, in the context of that administration [...] the term "the administrative area of Judea and Samaria" or Judea and Samaria Area [...] may be used. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Frankly, User:TerraCyprus, I am wondering if you are truly clueless, or if you are trolling, or worse. From your previous edits; I WP:AGF and take it that you are clueless. (If you had read the lengthy discussion behind WP:WESTBANK; you would see that "Judea and Samaria Area" today is used by the (illegal) Israeli settlers, and their supporters/enablers. (it is something about higlithing the "ancient Jewish connection with the land", thereby justifying occupation, etc, etc). Apart from them; the rest of the world uses West Bank. By creating this category, you are helping the  (illegal) Israeli settlers getting "their view" across on Wikipedia. (And the Yesha Council has been very active recruting to Wikipedia; look at YouTube, etc).  You have walked straight into one of the most contentious areas on Wikipedia, changing hundreds(!) of categories; without discussion(!) To say that I am dismayed by your behaviour, is an understatement, Huldra (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks : Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor . Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collaborative atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans. You may try again. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

COPY from Category talk:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area:
 * Delete I don't think this is a WESTBANK violation (as this is referring to the adminstrative area that these settlements fall under). However, it's simply pointless as it duplicates Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and the settlements are also in the categories of the regional councils that they fall under the jurisdiction of, which in turn are in the Judea and Samaria Area category tree. Number   5  7  21:23, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "it's simply pointless as it duplicates Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank": it is not, as anyone can see, since that category contains two geographical subcategories, namely Category:Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem‎ (12 P) and Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area‎ (75 P) plus Category:Former Israeli settlements in the West Bank‎ (7 P). If this category would be deleted several places would not be in Category:Judea and Samaria Area anymore. TerraCyprus (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: From my talk: "FTR: I sorted the settlements in Category:Israeli settlements into to geographical subcategories and moved those articles that where not about settlements or sets thereof into Category:Israeli settlement according to the category description. Sometimes I also removed the category "Judea and Samaria Area" when the new Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area was added since the latter is a subcategory of the former e.g. Sdeh Bar Farm TerraCyprus (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2021 (UTC)" TerraCyprus (talk) 00:06, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Examples where "Judea and Samaria Area" has been used before: TerraCyprus (talk) 01:40, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Category:Israeli settlement contains the following subcategories for "Israeli settlements":
 * Category:Israeli settlements
 * Category:Israeli settlements by location
 * Category:Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights (29 P) - geographical category: Category:Golan Heights‎, subcategory inside Category:Populated places in the Golan Heights
 * Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank (0 P) - geographical category: Category:West Bank‎, subcategory inside Category:Populated places in the West Bank
 * Category:Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem‎ (12 P)
 * Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area‎ (75 P) - geographical category: Category:Judea and Samaria Area‎
 * Category:Former Israeli settlements in the West Bank‎ (7 P) - geographical category: Category:West Bank‎
 * Category:Former Israeli settlements
 * Category:Former Israeli settlements in Sinai‎ (14 P)
 * Category:Former Israeli settlements in the West Bank‎ (7 P) - geographical category: Category:West Bank‎
 * Category:Former Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip‎ (26 P)
 * Category:Mixed Israeli settlements‎ (24 P)
 * Category:Non-religious Israeli settlements‎ (12 P)
 * Category:Religious Israeli settlements‎ (82 P)
 * Category:Unauthorized Israeli settlements‎ (13 P)
 * TerraCyprus (talk) 00:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Also see https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=20241765 and https://osm4wiki.toolforge.org/cgi-bin/wiki/wiki-osm.pl?project=en&article=Category%3AIsraeli_settlements_in_the_Judea_and_Samaria_Area TerraCyprus (talk) 03:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

This title fails WP:WESTBANK, namely the requirement that Judea and Samaria Area is restricted to use about the administration of the territory and you may not say a place is "in" that construct. The West Bank category, while including East Jerusalem, is more than enough for this.  nableezy  - 16:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I would add that if Israel wishes to identify a portion of the territory it occupies (a portion that excludes East Jerusalem) as an "area" for it's own internal reasons of administration, then that is up to Israel. It is not for Wikipedia to go along with such internal decisions, these territories are in the West Bank as far as everyone else except Israel is concerned. Another feature of the settlements in the category is that they are or should be in the categories "Israeli settlement(s)" and "Israeli occupied territories" again because that is the way they are described in the articles and because that is the way the world at large views them. See eg List of Israeli settlements.Selfstudier (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

, this category should be emptied and the articles placed back in Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank. The settlements in EJ should be separated in to an EJ category that is a sub-cat of WB, but this one is entirely unnecessary and violates our naming guideline.  nableezy  - 19:23, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree this category is pointless. Category:Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem should probably go too. If anyone wants to CfD them, I will support deletion. Number   5  7  20:28, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have nominated it for deletion, here: Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area, Huldra (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The settlements in EJ should be separated in to an EJ category - they are, see Category:Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem‎, and the others in the West Bank are in Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area‎. Why delete one and keep the other? The infoboxes say "Judea and Samaria Area" and the category sorts them there. TerraCyprus (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Because the Judea and Samaria Area is simply an administrative construct, not a place. We have a naming convention that was developed to deal with this issue, and what it says is that Judea and Samaria Area may be used to refer to the administration of the territory, not the land mass. We call the land mass West Bank. Yes, East Jerusalem is a special case in that Israel claims it as its territory as opposed to the rest of the West Bank (but Israel also claims that it is in the Jerusalem District), but we do not refer to the land mass commonly known as the West Bank as "Judea and Samaria" or "Judea and Samaria Area".  nableezy  - 00:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Because the Judea and Samaria Area is simply an administrative construct, not a place." -- like UK, US, France, EU, Russia - all simply "constructs", but they can have a categories for things located there. TerraCyprus (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That is incredibly silly. Per WP:WESTBANK things are not located in the Judea and Samaria Area, they are located in the West Bank. I will be removing the category from the individual pages and will be going to AE to request that it be enforced as an arbcom mandated naming convention that one user cannot decide does not apply because they want to use an occupying powers chosen naming scheme.  nableezy  - 15:28, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, the change you performed means losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Very much no, the Judea and Samaria Area is not a division of the West Bank. It is not a place. The change you made is redefining the territory in a way our naming convention explicitly disallows.  nableezy  - 14:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * what do you mean by "Very much no"? Do you mean Wast Bank is not larger than Judea and Samaria Area? What do you mean by "It is not a place"? Did you ever read the Judea and Samaria Area article and if so, did you notice the map there? TerraCyprus (talk) 12:18, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The West Bank is marginally larger than the territory that the administrative district Judea and Samaria Area covers but they are two different topics entirely. Judea and Samaria Area is an administrative district of Israel, not a subdivision of the West Bank. The West Bank is a territory, and a portion of that territory is treated differently by Israel. But your subdivision here, in which you have West Bank divided in to "East Jerusalem" and "Judea and Samaria Area" is quite literally apples and oranges. Judea and Samaria Area is an Israeli district, East Jerusalem is not. East Jerusalem is part of the Jerusalem District, which includes quite a bit of territory that is not part of the West Bank either. And by it is not a place, I mean exactly that. Per WP:WESTBANK we have an established consensus that you may not say that a thing is in the Judea and Samaria Area. And as User:Pppery notes, that wider consensus at WP:WESTBANK cannot be overruled here. If you want to subdivide the West Bank you can do it with Governorates of Palestine. Those are the geographical and administrative subdivisions of the West Bank.  nableezy  - 01:20, 17 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Upmerge or whatever its called to Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank per WP:WESTBANK.  nableezy  - 00:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Upmerge, it is against the spirit of WP:WESTBANK, the settlements are not specifically about the Israeli administration under the JSA name of the area. Marcocapelle (talk) 00:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It could be diffused by the 16 Palestinian governorates, that would be more precise indeed. But that can be done irrespective of this nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It is a category by location, cf.: Category:Populated places by location TerraCyprus (talk) 01:03, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * While WP:WESTBANK implies that we should not use the term as a location but only use it for Israeli administration. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That is not true. When discussing specifically the administrative area of Judea and Samaria, in the context of that administration [...] the term "the administrative area of Judea and Samaria" or Judea and Samaria Area [...] may be used TerraCyprus (talk) 12:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly, only in the context of administration, not as a location. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose A straight deletion would remove these settlements from the parent category as well. And WP:WESTBANK does not address what to do with administrative subdivisions within the West Bank. Dimadick (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The administrative subdivisions in the West Bank are the Palestinian Governorates. The "Judea and Samaria Area" is the Israeli district for the entirety of the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem. And WP:WESTBANK very specifically says that you may not say that places are in a land mass known as the Judea and Samaria Area. Which is what this does. The category description itself shows the violation, it says Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area. WP:WESTBANK says When discussing specifically the administrative area of Judea and Samaria, in the context of that administration and not merely referring to a specific land area, the term "the administrative area of Judea and Samaria" or Judea and Samaria Area (with the last word capitalised as here) may be used, subject to clause 6 below, namely that it cannot be used without qualification as though it is the neutral point of view. This very much does that, and it is a straightforward violation of something that took an arbcom case and the banning of several editors to resolve.  nableezy  - 15:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * They should be removed from the parent category, because the parent category should only contain Israeli administration, in other words the parent category should not contain populated places, rivers, mountains, history, buildings, people from there etc etc. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Should all be in Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank, per WP:WESTBANK and because that is what the entries represent. That Israel identifies territory it occupies excluding East Jerusalem (which only Israel considers as Israeli territory) as an "area" for it's own internal reasons of administration should not concern us. These territories are in the West Bank (usually considered to include East Jerusalem in common parlance) as far as everyone except Israel is concerned. Another feature of the settlements in the category is that they are or should be in the categories "Israeli settlement(s)" and "Israeli occupied territories" again because that is the way they are described in the individual articles and because that is the way the world at large views them, see also List of Israeli settlements.Selfstudier (talk) 10:37, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Selfstudier, please stop trolling. List of Israeli settlements and dozens of articles clearly make a distinction between the part of the West Bank that Israel considers to be East Jerusalem and the other part. "These territories are in the West Bank [...] as far as everyone except Israel is concerned" - no one here is contesting that they are in the West Bank. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:08, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I would remind you re WP:CIVIL. Your "trolling" assertion has no place here.Selfstudier (talk) 12:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Internet troll. You are just disrupting the discussion, no one here contested, that the places are in the West Bank. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See your talk page. That's twice I remind you re WP:CIVIL.Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Dimadick, a straight deletion would remove these settlements from the parent category as well. And WP:WESTBANK does not address what to do with administrative subdivisions within the West Bank. TerraCyprus (talk) 11:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You just filled up this category recently and continued to do so even though it was explained on your talk page that what you were doing was incorrect. We don't have to do anything with Israeli administrative subdivisions viz a viz the WB because it has nothing to do with Israel other than the fact they are occupying the territory. Imagine that Palestine decided to create an internal administrative division, Israeli villages previously in Palestine and I created a cat called that and moved all those Israeli villages into it, what do you think the response would be? Selfstudier (talk) 12:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is a complex issue best left alone for now and referred to the relevant wikiprojects (Palestine, Israel, etc.) to establish a consensus on how to progress it. I entirely agree with about the parent category problem and the shortcomings of WP:WESTBANK. It is because of these complexities that deletion isn't an option at present. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not that complex https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-judea-and-samaria-district-wikipedia-in-hebrew-can-t-find-it-1.5824781 Selfstudier (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * We haved established that consensus, it can be found at WP:WESTBANK.  nableezy  - 16:45, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not true. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What is not true? WP:WESTBANK is consensus, and it very clearly disallows saying something is in a place known as the Judea and Samaria Area, where it says you may only use Judea and Samaria Area in the context of that administration and not merely referring to a specific land area. When you say something is in a place you are referring to the land area. You have any response besides outright denial?  nableezy  - 16:40, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You are not telling the truth. You mix citation and own words. Try again. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank.--User:Namiba 17:34, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment, the Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area is presently empty; User:TerraCyprus: your behaviour here (=changing to a controversial cat, without any previous discussion, on hundreds(?) of articles), has been extremely disruptive. It you repeat this; expect to see yourself at WP:AE, Huldra (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank, as these recent creations are clearly controversial. Oculi (talk) 09:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Upmerge Down with sneaky moves. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. What do you refer to by "Down with sneaky moves"? TerraCyprus (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * As Marco wrote above, "It could be diffused by the 16 Palestinian governorates, that would be more precise indeed. But that can be done irrespective of this nomination". Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Dimadick. What a mess! --Just N. (talk) 16:50, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment; to all of you who vote oppose due to User:Dimadick's argument that "A straight deletion would remove these settlements from the parent category as well", well that is a moot point: the Category:Israeli settlements in the Judea and Samaria Area is presently empty, (and will remain so, unless WP:WESTBANK is changed). Also: to repeat: Judea and Samaria  are the (illegal) Israeli settlers name for the West Bank; when TerraCyprus above argues that we are "losing precision" if we merge it; well, that is quite  disingenuous; what we will be "losing", is the Israeli settlers preferred naming. Huldra (talk) 21:02, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Category:Israeli settlements in the West Bank is correct, adequate, and much less POV. Zerotalk 01:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * West Bank is larger, upmerge would mean losing precision. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. If we keep cats for EJ and WB we will have everything. Now, by my count you have commented 26 times and many of your comments have been much the same. You need to read WP:BLUDGEON and cool it. Zerotalk 12:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * false. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a useful category based on the adminstrative division and Israeli law applicable to these lications. --Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Query What about international law? Isn't that applicable too? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:35, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Less relevant to police, courts, civilians, abd soldiers who actually live. A speeding ticket is resolved locally.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * did you read international law? The first sentence is "International law, also known as public international law and law of nations, is the set of rules, norms, and standards generally recognized as binding between nations." - but Judea and Samaria Area is an Israeli administrative entity. TerraCyprus (talk) 12:25, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge/Delete I'm uninvolved in this dispute, but it seems clear to me that there is a long-established consensus against having categories like this one, and this discussion cannot overturn that consensus per WP:CONLEVEL * Pppery * it has begun... 21:31, 9 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Conferences by location

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename.  ✗  plicit  12:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Conferences by location to Category:Conferences by country
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per actual content. After recent upmerging of two city subcategories there are only country subcategories left. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom as there are only countries there. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename Seems sensible Pdfpdf (talk) 09:14, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. --Just N. (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jamaican girl groups
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 10%23Category:Jamaican girl groups

Category:Public governance

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting public governance
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a weird looking category. The articles and subcategories don't seem to fit together, as some are about state governments and some are about administrative topics. I would suggest deleting and moving contents to a more sensible category if needed. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 04:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Marcocapelle (talk) 09:54, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is a mess. I doubt if it can be rescued. Rathfelder (talk) 15:57, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Mr Hardy would absolutely agree that it is a mess, probably a fine mess and, if Mr Laurel was involved, perhaps another fine mess. Best to delete per nom. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Order of Polonia Restituta (1944–1989) & Category:Recipients of the Virtuti Militari (1943–1989)
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 10%23Category:Recipients of the Order of Polonia Restituta (1944–1989) & Category:Recipients of the Virtuti Militari (1943–1989)