Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 September 5



Category:White savior films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting white savior films
 * Nominator's rationale: What qualifies as a white savior film is subjective. Categories don't allow for nuisance or context. Everyone of these film articles should discuss the white savior trope in it, but provide context and all relevant viewpoints. I don't think putting it a category is at all helpful. JDDJS  ( talk to me  •  see what I've done ) 23:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Not a defining category.  Also splashed about far too casually as is on the articles - sourcing that a film was accused of being a white savior film by XYZ is handy, but it's not like there's an authoritative source on the matter, making it difficult to entangle one eccentric opinion from a general consensus that yes, this film invokes white savior tropes.  To be a category, we'd need something more than "someone somewhere accused this of being a white savior film once".  SnowFire (talk) 06:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: the current member pages are already listed in the main article with the exceptions of The Last Samurai, The Outsider (2018 film) and Up the Down Staircase. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:05, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Very common trend in films to depict exceptional or heroic "white" characters. There are available sources on the topic, and this should be covered on both the main articles and on categories. An analysis of a film's themes and implications is more relevant real-world information than reviews by jaded film critics. Dimadick (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Categories need to be defining and have a clear inclusion criteria per WP:CATV. Whether a film won an Academy Award or not is objective.  Whether a film is a classic, or a box office bomb, or is anti-fascist, or is pro-fascist, is inherently a matter of weighing critic's opinions (well, barring categories like literal Category:Nazi propaganda films, but that's an objective case too, who funded it and why).  There's available sources on lots of elements of films that can be covered in prose but that aren't appropriate for categories, because they're subjective.  SnowFire (talk) 06:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * To echo what SnowFire is saying, this is not at all about not covering the topic of white savior narrative on the film articles. It should absolutely be talked about on the pages. But in the end, it's subjective whether or not the film is a white savior film. And categories cannot be subjective. JDDJS  ( talk to me  •  see what I've done ) 15:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Incredibly subjective. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Former Hindus by nationality

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Former Hindus. (non-admin closure) Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 12:53, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Former Hindus by nationality to Category:Former Hindus
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. --Just N. (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:High school football competitions in the United States
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 September 13%23Category:High school football competitions in the United States

Category:Maskilim

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:People of the Haskalah. Consensus is that the category should remain, but that there may be accessibility issues with the current name.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Maskilim to Category:Haskalah, or Category:People of the Haskalah
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no article Maskilim. Rathfelder (talk) 14:05, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Category:Maskilim to Category:Haskalah – C2D. Rathfelder (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: "Haskalah" refers to the movement, whose adherents were known as "maskilim" (analogous to Category:Romanticism vs. Category:Writers of the Romantic era‎). If others feel strongly about renaming, something like Category:Haskalah writers would be more appropriate. –Kyuko (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a well established policy that categories should follow the title of the article. There is no article about Maskilim. Rathfelder (talk) 21:41, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * To clarify, "Haskalah" is another name for the Jewish Enlightenment; for comparison, Category:American Enlightenment has the subcategory Category:People of the American Enlightenment, Category:Modern Greek Enlightenment has Category:People of the Modern Greek Enlightenment, Category:Scottish Enlightenment has Category:People of the Scottish Enlightenment, etc. Should you feel that Category:People of the Haskalah (or Category:Haskalah writers) is clearer than Category:Maskilim, I would be on board with renaming rather than deletion. –Kyuko (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rathfelder, I don't think this is supported by WP:CATEGORY so it would need a full discussion. TSventon (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - I don't see the problem. Category:Haskalah is a topic category, its subcategory Category:Maskilim is a set category of people, and Maskilim is defined early on in Haskalah as Haskalah activists. There is no requirement that every set category should have an article. Oculi (talk) 14:38, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Question Rathfelder, please can you quote the policy you are following here? I don't think this is supported by WP:CATEGORY. Also pinging Kyuko from speedy discussion. TSventon (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not every category has to be anchored to an article, but it is usual, if there is a defining article, that the names should be the same. I think this is particularly important if the name is not self-explanatory to an English speaker. It is not clear, at least not to me, what defines the members of the category. Many of the articles do not use either term.  Rathfelder (talk) 14:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Articles using neither term should be removed from both categories. That is a separate issue, not resolved by merging a set category into a topic category, generally a bad idea. Oculi (talk) 09:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, but would not object to renaming to Category:People of the Haskalah. As discussed at speedy deletion, there is strong precedent for having 'people affiliated with X movement' as a subcategory of 'X movement' (cf. Category:American Enlightenment / Category:People of the American Enlightenment, Category:Modern Greek Enlightenment / Category:People of the Modern Greek Enlightenment, Category:Scottish Enlightenment / Category:People of the Scottish Enlightenment, etc.) –Kyuko (talk) 19:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm quite happy with Category:People of the Haskalah. Its distinctly clearer. Rathfelder (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - per Oculi, Maskilim is defined early on in Haskalah. TSventon (talk) 05:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem is not the lack of definition. Its accessibility.  It is not obvious to a casual user, or at least not to me, what the term signifies - and I have just worked through more than a thousand Jewish biographies.  Rathfelder (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:People of the Haskalah which would be a self-evident name for what is meant. --Just N. (talk) 15:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Western (genre) romantic films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting western (genre) romantic films
 * Nominator's rationale: As with adjectives like action, adventure and drama which have been addressed in earlier CFDs, romance is integral to the vast majority of Westerns. The genre cannot be artificially sub-divided just because, as with nearly all of this category's entries, there happens to be a female co-star. Additions to the category are bound to be subjective because many of the films listed only contain romance to the extent that the hero is married (as is the case with the films about Custer and his wife) or that he and the leading lady walk away hand in hand in the final scene. On the other hand, the category doesn't include numerous Westerns in which romantic sub-plots are key to the storyline – My Darling Clementine, She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande and The Magnificent Seven among many. No Great Shaker (talk) 10:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. An upmerge is not practical in this case but, for due diligence, I'll work through the entries and ensure they are all included in other sub-categories of Category:Western (genre) films. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:04, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * All checked and in other suitable categories. No Great Shaker (talk) 08:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 13:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose The nomination is not particularly convincing. If there are films "in which romantic sub-plots are key to the storyline", then they are romance films by definition. Dimadick (talk) 21:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The point is that romance is nearly always present in Westerns to the extent that, like Westerns with action and drama, it is futile and illogical to create a category because the films encompass two distinct genres. A category like War romance films is fine because it is unusual for a war film to include a romance but there are very, very few Westerns that do not. In some Westerns like Rio Grande, romance is a significant factor but usually it is a case of hero and heroine joining hands in the final scene. This makes the category impractical as a subjective view must be taken of how much romance is on show. If a Western contains a strong romantic element, it should be categorised as both a Western and a romance, the same applying if the film is primarily a romance that happens to be set in the Old West. No Great Shaker (talk) 12:36, 11 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Nomination amended. I've struck out the last sentence of my nomination because Dimadick has made a fair point and, on reflection, what is not in the category is irrelevant. Thanks. No Great Shaker (talk) 12:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jain monarchs

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Reverse merge. (non-admin closure) Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 12:55, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Jain monarchs to Category:Indian Jain monarchs
 * Nominator's rationale: merge or reverse merge, there have never been Jain monarchs outside the Indian subcontinent. Note that I have tagged both categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:39, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Note regarding implementation of the merge, if merged, Category:Monarchs by religion should be manually added as a parent category to Category:Indian Jain monarchs; while if reverse merged, Category:Indian monarchs should be manually added as a parent category to Category:Jain monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:46, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  bibliomaniac 1  5  05:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge for preference, implemented as indicated, Peterkingiron (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge for preference, implemented as indicated, --Just N. (talk) 16:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sports in New Iberia, Louisiana

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Sports in New Iberia, Louisiana. As usual, no prejudice towards recreation if it can pass WP:SMALLCAT.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Sports in New Iberia, Louisiana to Category:New Iberia, Louisiana
 * Nominator's rationale: Per SMALLCAT. Category contains two articles and two sub-categories. User:Namiba 10:49, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Oppose I count the two subcats not as '2' but correspondent to their number of elements. Besides, especially sports cats have enormous growth potential. So merge here seems not a good idea! --Just N. (talk) 19:26, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  bibliomaniac 1  5  05:03, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There hasn't been a notable professional sports team in New Iberia, LA since 1955. The town's population is only 28,000. If there is some surge to return pro sports to this small city in Louisiana, we can always recreate the category.--User:Namiba 14:28, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Growth potential seems to be very limited in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:COVID-19 monuments and memorials

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:COVID-19 pandemic monuments and memorials.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:COVID-19 monuments and memorials to Category:COVID-19 pandemic monuments and memorials
 * Nominator's rationale: The monuments are for the pandemic and its victims, as opposed to for the disease itself. BlackholeWA (talk) 11:10, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Oppose as unnecessary. While the proposed change is perhaps semantically more correct, the current name is in line with other categories in Category:Epidemic monuments and memorials, as well as with common usage for disease memorials (e.g. NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt, not AIDS Victim Memorial Quilt). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Animalparty (talk • contribs)
 * Rename per nom. --Just N. (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  bibliomaniac 1  5  05:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support – Although the new name doesn't match the established category tree, it makes sense to refer to the pandemic, as some of the memorials are to aspects of the pandemic other than victims of the disease. MClay1 (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Some of the memorials are to aspects of the pandemic other than victims of the disease, just as MClay1 pointed out. So the new name makes sense. --Just N. (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per above and because several of these monuments have "pandemic" in their name, e.g. World Memorial to the Pandemic. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:46, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Time travel anime and manga

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Anime and manga about time travel.  bibliomaniac  1  5  05:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Time travel anime and manga to Category:Time travel in anime and manga
 * Nominator's rationale: "Time travel" isn't really a genre but a plot element. See also: Category:Time travel in television. Link20XX (talk) 04:17, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Anime and manga about time travel to clarify that it must be a defining trait. –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The alt rename sounds fine to me. Just wanted to ask if Category:Time travel in television should be renamed to Category:Television about time travel for consistency reasons. Link20XX (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support alt rename to Category:Anime and manga about time travel per LaundryPizza03. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Anime and manga about time travel. The scope becomes much clearer. And time travel has to be essential to the work's plot, as opposed to the story of a single chapter or episode. Dimadick (talk) 21:16, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support alt rename to Category:Anime and manga about time travel. --Just N. (talk) 16:07, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:RENFE Operadora multiple units
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy rename. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:RENFE Operadora multiple units to Category:Renfe multiple units
 * Propose renaming Category:RENFE locomotives to Category:Renfe locomotives
 * Propose renaming Category:RENFE high-speed trains to Category:Renfe high-speed trains
 * Propose renaming Category:RENFE rolling stock to Category:Renfe rolling stock
 * Propose renaming Category:Renfe Operadora to Category:Renfe
 * Nominator's rationale: C2D after parent article renaming. Kraushaune (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Procedural comment, I took the liberty to merge the nominations. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename all per nom, this could have been listed at WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename all - this could be speedied here if unopposed after 48 hours. (Speedy#Applying speedy criteria in full discussions) Oculi (talk) 08:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.