Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 21



Ryerson University

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge all. Sockpuppetry notwithstanding, the consensus and the convention is to merge/rename after a school changes its name.  bibliomaniac  1  5  01:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Ryerson University to Category:Toronto Metropolitan University
 * Propose merging Category:Ryerson University people to Category:Toronto Metropolitan University people
 * Propose merging Category:Presidents of Ryerson University to Category:Presidents of Toronto Metropolitan University
 * Propose merging Category:Ryerson University alumni to Category:Toronto Metropolitan University alumni
 * Propose merging Category:Chancellors of Ryerson University to Category:Chancellors of Toronto Metropolitan University
 * Propose merging Category:Ryerson University faculty to Category:Toronto Metropolitan University faculty
 * (added) propose merging Category:Ryerson University buildings to Category:Toronto Metropolitan University buildings
 * Nominator's rationale: The university has recently changed its name. This is the fifth name the university has had in its history (Ryerson Institute of Technology (1948–1966). Ryerson Polytechnical Institute (1966–1993), Ryerson Polytechnic University (1993–2001), Ryerson University (2001-2022), and now Toronto Metropolitan University) and there are not separate categories for each of the previous names (eg the principal of the Ryerson Institute of Technology is in the cat Category:Presidents of Ryerson University as are the presidents of Ryerson Polytechnical Institute and Ryerson Polytechnic University). See CTV News:Ryerson University announces its new name. Horatio Bumblebee (talk) 13:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  01:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Clearly, nearly every reference to this institution--until last year--refers to "Ryerson". Just because the university changed its name, does not change that nearly every source on every biography mentions "Ryerson".  I'm not sure if categories can be redirected, but this would certainly preserve the integrity and correctness of the category names as they appear on articles. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Response - That's immaterial and irrelevant. Reliable sources establish that Ryerson University has changed its name to Toronto Metropolitan University. That means anything that had to do with Ryerson University (under that name or its prior names) falls under the Toronto Metropolitan University category. You don't need separate sources that reiterate that fact for each individual Ryerson professor, alumni, or building ie you don't need a source that says Professor X taught at Ryerson University which has since changed its name to TMU. It's sufficient that there is a general and reliable source in the parent Toronto Metropolitan University article that establishes the name change. Redirecting the category neither enhances nor diminishes the "integrity and correctness" of the article - how would it when it doesn't become part of the history of the article? Having a reliable source in the parent article about the university establishes that "integrity and correctness".  Horatio Bumblebee (talk) 22:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. It's the same institution, with a continuous history and merely a change of name, so there's no pressing need to maintain two separate category trees for what's fundamentally the same thing. If this had merged with a different institution to create a new TMU that had two predecessor institutions, then separate categories might stay necessary, but that's not what happened. And we also have a rule that when a thing changes its name, sources published after the name change carry more weight than sources published before the name change. And while categories can be redirected for "finding the new category" purposes, articles can't be left sitting in the old redirected category name for "integrity and correctness" purposes -- but since there's nothing "unintegritous" (?) or incorrect about a university changing its name, that's no sort of problem. Bearcat (talk) 22:00, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support -- This follows the convention on alumni categories, which can usefully be applied to the rest. The renaming needs to be mentions in a headnote in each case.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. All of the alumni graduated from Ryerson, not this new name. --Gilgul Kaful (talk) 07:53, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Response It's literally the same institution and TMU is reissuing diplomas to alumni with the new name. Also, for your point to be valid then you have to put those alumni into four separate categories as the institution wasn't called "Ryerson University" at the time each of them graduated so if "Category:Toronto Metropolitan University alumni" is wrong so is "Category:Ryerson University alumni". Some graduated from Ryerson Institute of Technology, others from Ryerson Polytechnical Institute or Ryerson Polytechnic University. Since in fact they are in a catch-all category with the institution's second most recent name there's no problem with renaming the catch-all to the current name. Horatio Bumblebee (talk) 10:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What matters here is the indisputable fact that they graduated from the same institution, not whether it did or didn't have the same name at the time as it has now. (As noted by others, for example, we do not have separate categories to segregate the people who attended it in the "Ryerson University" era from the people who attended it in the "Ryerson Institute of Technology" era or the "Ryerson Polytechnical" era, and this is not a different situation in any sense.) And furthermore, since Ryerson-era grads are being offered the opportunity to have their diplomas reissued with the TMU name on them instead of the Ryerson name, it isn't even unequivocally clear that there's an important distinction to be upheld in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 16:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: The categories have now been tagged (by Marcocapelle). Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. I can understand why some want oppose, but that is not how WP does it. --Bduke (talk) 01:15, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment Most of these categories have not been tagged for this CFD discussion and the nominator has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Liz Read! Talk! 21:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support, it is not helpful for navigation to make a category split just based on a name change. All nominated categories are now tagged. The discussion should not be closed within another week. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep the people subcats. It is much neater and more accurate (and less trouble) to keep someone who graduated from or taught at Ryerson University as a subcat of the corresponding Toronto Metropolitan University category, as at present. Oculi (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support  Plenty of other universities have changed their names, though not many as often as this, and we did not preserve the names of their subcategories.  Rathfelder (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * per convention. — Qwerfjkl  talk  08:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

American businesspeople by ethnicity

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:54, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: manual soft merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  08:44, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople by ethnicity to Category:American businesspeople
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Asian descent to Category:American businesspeople
 * Propose merging Category:American businessmen of Bangladeshi descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Bangladeshi descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Chinese descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Chinese descent
 * Propose merging Category:American women of Chinese descent in business to Category:American women in business and Category:American people of Chinese descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Filipino descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Filipino descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Hong Kong descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Hong Kong descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Indian descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Indian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesswomen of Indian descent to Category:American women in business and Category:American people of Indian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American film producers of Indian descent to Category:American film producers and Category:American people of Indian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Japanese descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Japanese descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Korean descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Korean descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Pakistani descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Pakistani descent
 * Propose merging Category:American businesspeople of Taiwanese descent to Category:American businesspeople and Category:American people of Taiwanese descent
 * Propose merging Category:Hispanic and Latino American businesspeople to Category:American businesspeople
 * Propose merging Category:Hispanic and Latino American company founders to Category:American company founders
 * Propose merging Category:Native American businesspeople to Category:American businesspeople
 * Nominator's rationale: merge/delete, trivial intersections between ethnicity/descent and occupation, see also WP:EGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs in memory of Elvis Presley

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  08:45, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Songs in memory of Elvis Presley to Category:Songs about Elvis Presley
 * Nominator's rationale: per WP:SMALLCAT Only three members, two of which are also in the target category. It seems an artificial distinction whether a song was written before or after a person's demise, there is no benefit having 2 separate categories. Richhoncho (talk) 12:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Support, completely agree on the artificial distinction. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 01:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs about snakes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Upmerge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  08:47, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting songs about snakes
 * Nominator's rationale: Only one entry which is verified to be about a snake. Delete per WP:SMALLCAT Richhoncho (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Agree in principle, but merge to Category:Songs about reptiles. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * And to the other parent category too, per Animal lover below. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Merge to both parents. No comment about Category:Songs about reptiles being big enough to keep, but as long as it exists this song belongs there. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 13:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs about Minecraft
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  08:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting songs about minecraft
 * Nominator's rationale: This category contains 4 redirects and the article Music of Minecraft, which not a song. No assistance to navigation. Richhoncho (talk) 10:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. The one article contains it all. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sunken cities
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Submerged places.  bibliomaniac  1  5  01:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sunken cities to Category:Submerged cities
 * Nominator's rationale: rename to align with Category:Submerged places. A merge to the latter would also be a possibility, it may not be very useful to split submerged villages, towns and cities. The cities category contains quite a few small towns by the way. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Better still merge to Category:Submerged places. Most are former populated places that are now submerged, either due to coastal erosion or the creation of reservoirs.  Because of the difficulties of defining which places are respectively cities/towns/villages we moved some years ago to merging them all into populated places.  Here, they are inevitably no longer populated, but their status as formerly populated can be dealt with in a headnote: category names are best when kept short.  A few of the contents of my target are buildings rather than populated, but that is a matter for purging into a new subcategory.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:32, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Sunken is inaccurate in almost all cases. The cities mostly didn't sink, but became inundated in water when water levels around them rose. I'm neutral on User:Peterkingiron's proposed merge, there are objects (Yonaguni Monument, Venugopala Swamy Temple, Shettihalli Rosary Church) in the parent that aren't populated places. If I were building from scratch I think I would separate populated places from other buildings or monuments, but I wouldn't differentiate by urban type (city). -- Mvqr (talk) 11:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have moved these buildings to Category:Submerged buildings and structures so that there is no longer an obstacle to merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge per Peterkingiron.<span id="Qwerfjkl:1661763003478:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2022_August_21" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  08:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Merge, it is not relevant for this categorization whether a place is city, town or village. --Privybst (talk) 11:21, 1 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Submerged settlements in Ukraine
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 29%23Category:Submerged settlements in Ukraine

Category:Gandhian Philosophy
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 29%23Category:Gandhian Philosophy

Category:Gandhians
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 29%23Category:Gandhians

Former populated places in Ukraine by region‎
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 29%23Former populated places in Ukraine by region‎