Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 19



Category:Yazidi saints
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Yazidi saints

Category:Sufism in Spain
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Sufism in Spain

Malikism in Algeria

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Malikism by continent
 * Propose deleting Category:Malikism in Africa
 * Propose merging Category:Malikism in Algeria to Category:Maliki
 * Nominator's rationale: delete/merge, empty category layers because there are hardly any topic articles by region. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:01, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Support -- There is not (yet) enough content to justify having more than the single Category:Maliki. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American footballers' wives and girlfriends
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:American footballers' wives and girlfriends

Muslim historians of Islam
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Muslim historians of Islam

Al-Andalus people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:People of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus people
 * Propose renaming Category:8th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:8th-century Al-Andalus bishops
 * Propose renaming Category:9th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:9th-century Al-Andalus bishops
 * Propose renaming Category:9th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:9th-century Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:10th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus bishops
 * Propose renaming Category:10th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:10th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
 * Propose renaming Category:11th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus bishops
 * Propose renaming Category:11th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:11th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
 * Propose renaming Category:12th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:12th-century Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:12th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:12th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:13th-century Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:13th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
 * Propose renaming Category:Arabs of Al-Andalus‎ to Category:Al-Andalus Arabs
 * Propose renaming Category:Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Jews
 * Propose renaming Category:Clergy of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus clergy
 * Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus scholars
 * Propose renaming Category:Maliki scholars of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Maliki scholars
 * Propose renaming Category:Philosophers of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus philosophers
 * Propose renaming Category:Scientists of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus scientists
 * Propose renaming Category:Astronomers of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus astronomers
 * Propose renaming Category:Mathematicians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus mathematicians
 * Propose renaming Category:Pharmacologists of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus pharmacologists
 * Propose renaming Category:Physicians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus physicians
 * Propose renaming Category:Poets of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus poets
 * Propose renaming Category:Women poets of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus women poets
 * Propose renaming Category:Christians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Christians
 * Propose renaming Category:Slaves of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus slaves
 * Propose renaming Category:Sufis of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Sufis
 * Propose renaming Category:Women of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus women
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, consistently use a nationality denonym (as many subcategories already do, e.g. Category:Al-Andalus people by century and Category:Al-Andalus writers). Marcocapelle (talk) 12:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose This is a "by geography" tree structure, not a "by nationality" or "by race" tree structure. There is or was a geographic area called Al-Andalus. There is no nation or race called Al-Andalus. I would in any case have opposed it as the insidious use of denonyms to elide differences between races, nations, states and islands is a bad idea. Down with the tyranny of denonyms. In the English language, such sleight-of-hand is possible; in other languages, you would not succeed with such sloppy categorisation. Precision is preferable to convenience. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:48, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It is as close to nationality as one can expect in medieval times. People were united by the religion and language of the ruling class. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  09:01, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose. The sum of territories of the Iberian Peninsula under (a given) Islamic rule in the Middle Ages cannot "be close to nationality as one can expect in Medieval times", whatever that would be. Specific Islamic polities in the Iberian Peninsula (which Al-Andalus was not) may perhaps qualify for such motivation in principle (even if I am afraid their common names do not fit the change from a practical standpoint).--Asqueladd (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * in order to solve the inconsistenties in the tree (sometimes Al-Andalus as adjective, sometimes "from", sometimes "of"), would you support some other kind of alignment across categories, and if so which? (Note that "of" works poorly with some occupations, e.g. "historians of Al-Andalus" may mean either "historians who lived in Al-Andalus" or "historians studying Al-Andalus history".) Marcocapelle (talk) 19:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd favour 'from'. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:15, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * For preference Keep -- Except where we are dealing with expatriates "in" or "of" does well. There is an adjective Andalusian, but I think that refers more to the succeeding Spanish province.  We should try to avoid forcing nouns into adjectival contexts.  In this case we need to bear in mind that "al" is Arabic for "the".  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Percussion instruments by tradition

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting percussion instruments by tradition
 * Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OVERLAPCAT, both subcategories are already part of Category:Percussion instruments by usage as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  13:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: @? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  09:00, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. There is indeed work to be done on these categories, but this should be discussed as a whole and consensus sought on a structure. This piecemeal approach is just going to make the mess worse. Andrewa (talk) 18:21, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I do not understand what needs to be discussed "as a whole". Please explain. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:00, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * please reply. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:Percussion instruments. This tree has multiple under-populated layers, which strongly suggests it is unnecessary.  "orchestral" has to subcats for specific instruments.  "latin" has two regional-related ones.  All can usefully appear in a parent.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:20, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Peterkingiron, do they need to be in percussion instruments as well as percussion instruments by usage? — Qwerfjkl  talk  09:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete — the only article has too many problems to be addressed here, and can be recategorized at the time it is fixed. The 2 subcategories are already represented under Category:Percussion instruments by usage. The interlocutors have failed to respond, this has been relisted twice, time to put it to bed.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:World Junior Table Tennis Championships

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:World Junior Table Tennis Championships to Category:ITTF World Youth Championships
 * Nominator's rationale: New official name "ITTF World Youth Championships" has been used since 2021. LLTT (talk) 14:02, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  13:21, 11 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:59, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment It's not really clear whether these are distinct competitions or not. The ITTF site describes the 2021 World Youth Championships as "the first" edition and a "new format" on its site, rather than the 18th edition of a renamed junior competition. The article follows suit with that in the editions and medals sections. The fact there are multiple age groups in the new competition and none of them align to the original age group suggests we should probably be treating these competitions as distinct rather than renaming the junior ones. SFB 14:57, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American settlers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: soft merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American settlers to Category:American pioneers
 * Propose merging Category:Florida settlers to Category:Florida pioneers
 * Nominator's rationale: merge or reverse merge, the scope of the categories is largely overlapping. I have tagged the targets as well, for in case of a reverse merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: see also Categories for discussion/Log/2022 November 25, where this was kept rather than renamed. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:21, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Correct, but that nomination contained an entirely different target. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:59, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  13:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:57, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I wondered about the distinction between pioneer and settler but American pioneer states that those who fit in that category were those who left the Thirteen Colonies to settle the western part of the continent.--User:Namiba 18:36, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The definition in this article (including "and later [from] United States") applies to all biographies currently in Category:American settlers. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Medieval scientists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval scientists to Category:Medieval scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:4th-century scientists to Category:4th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:5th-century scientists to Category:5th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:6th-century scientists to Category:6th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:7th-century scientists to Category:7th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:8th-century scientists to Category:8th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:9th-century scientists to Category:9th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:10th-century scientists to Category:10th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:11th-century scientists to Category:11th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:12th-century scientists to Category:12th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:13th-century scientists to Category:13th-century scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:14th-century scientists to Category:14th-century scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval women scientists to Category:Medieval women scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Byzantine scientists to Category:Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Byzantine scientists by century to Category:Byzantine scholars by century
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:4th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:4th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:5th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:5th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:6th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:6th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:7th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:7th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:8th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:8th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:9th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:9th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:11th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:11th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:12th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:12th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:13th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:13th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:14th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:14th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:15th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:15th-century Byzantine scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Egyptian scientists to Category:Medieval Egyptian scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval English scientists to Category:Medieval English scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval French scientists to Category:Medieval French scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists of the medieval Islamic world to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world and Category:Science in the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Scientists of the medieval Islamic world by state to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world by state
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists from the Abbasid Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Abbasid Caliphate and Category:Science in the Abbasid Caliphate
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists of Al-Andalus to Category:Scholars of Al-Andalus and Category:Science in Al-Andalus
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists from the Fatimid Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Fatimid Caliphate
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Scientists from the Umayyad Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Umayyad Caliphate
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Italian scientists to Category:Medieval Italian scholars
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Jewish scientists to Category:Medieval Jewish scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Korean scientists to Category:Medieval Korean scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Polish scientists to Category:Medieval Polish scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Portuguese scientists to Category:Medieval Portuguese scholars
 * Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Spanish scientists to Category:Medieval Spanish scholars
 * Nominator's rationale: manually merge/rename, with all due respect, science in the middle ages mainly consisted of mathematics and astronomy. We do not need an intermediate scientists category layer under scholars in this period of time. Merging needs to be done manually because articles may well be in another subcategory of scholars. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  13:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't Category:Medieval physicians be in there as well? – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That should surely be added to scholars after renaming to scholars. Writers should be added too. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support — first step in better organization.
 * following my examination of Scholars noted at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_December_27, I would rather keep the Scientists layer than Scholars. Medieval scientists includes not only mathematicians and astronomers but also geographers, physicists, physicians and zoologists. Where Scholars and Writers both exist, then Scholars should be a subcat of Writers, not vice versa. If any big change is called for, I would merge/rename Scholars to Writers; that would bring the categories for former countries into line with those for current countries. As for this nomination, if some of the nominated Scientists categories have neither a Scholars nor a Writers parent, then I would support renaming to Writers. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:12, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not, but IMnsHO, Writers are a subset of Scholars. We don't think of fiction writers as scholars or scientists, although some are both. Although obviously all scientists and scholars must have written something, we don't usually categorize travelographers or historiographers as scholars or scientists. There are some well known philosophers whom we only know about from later writers, not their own writings. The change from scientists to scholars here is simply because for these eras the scientific method had not yet been established, so we don't call them scientists.
 * Fiction writers, scholars and scientists are all writers, as are, and . They are not all Scholars, so I don't understand your point about Category:Writers of the medieval Islamic world belonging as a subcat of Scholars. However, I acknowledge your sound rationale for using Scholars rather than Scientists for medieval categories.  – Fayenatic  L ondon 23:17, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * So this is essentially because "scientist" is anachronistic before C16. This will not be obvious to everyone, so the old names could be redirected, and the "Scholars" by century could still be linked in Template:Scientists by century. Shouldn't we add 5th to, 10th to etc to the nomination?  Also Category:Ancient scientists and its sub-cats, as it makes no sense to take out the middle while leaving the earlier ages?– Fayenatic  L ondon 09:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: why rename Scientists while leaving Category:1st millennium in science and its other subcats unchanged? N.B. there is an article Byzantine science. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:59, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

American people of European descent by occupation
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete most. No Consensus to delete "Category:American gangsters of X descent". Wrestlers, and writers/poets of X descent, should be relisted. (Listification was one option noted.) That said, this has been open a long time. So I'm just going to close this and address the ones for deletion. Anyone is welcome to "relist" the other categories at their discretion, per the normal process. And of course, if any category turns out to be "orphaned" due to losing a parent catetgory, please feel free to recategorise to an appropriate existing category. - jc37 06:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  13:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of European descent by occupation
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of Armenian descent by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian-American male actors to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American musicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American classical musicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American politicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American sportspeople of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American writers of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American journalists of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of Greek descent by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:American gangsters of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose deleting Category:19th-century Greek American people by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American military personnel to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American painters to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose deleting Category:20th-century Greek American people by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American military personnel to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:American politicians of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:American writers of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of Italian descent by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:American sportspeople of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American boxers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American professional wrestlers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American film directors of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American trade unionists of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American lawyers and judges of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American politicians of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American professional wrestlers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American sculptors of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American writers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American poets of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of Russian descent by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:American writers of Russian descent to Category:American people of Russian descent
 * Propose deleting Category:American people of Spanish descent by occupation
 * Propose merging Category:American politicians of Spanish descent to Category:American people of Spanish descent
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, trivial intersections between ancestor's nationality and occupation. Note 1: I have deliberately not nominated Category:American gangsters of Italian descent. Note 2: I have limited the nomination to European descent because things may be different with other ancestries. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:11, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:55, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:OCEGRS. Italians, Greeks, Armenians, and other immigrants from southern and eastern Europe have definitely been "recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic[s] in its own right[s]" distinct from other Europeans, especially prior to World War II. See the Philadelphia Greek Mob as but one example regarding organized crime.--User:Namiba 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Note that I am not suggesting to delete Category:American people of Greek descent etc. The nomination is just about the intersection with occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Namiba?<span id="Qwerfjkl:1672134602516:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2022_December_19" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  09:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand the nomination. I believe these intersections are notable. Take, for example, the intersection listed by William Allen Simpson below. There have been numerous characters in professional wrestling whose main feature is being Italian. For example, the many members of the group Full Blooded Italians. In the context of their occupation, ethnicity is very important. There is even a published paper about professional wrestling and the immigrant experience in the United States. If you wanted to investigate whether some of these are distinct intersections and then nominate the ones which you find do not have academic research on the subject, that is something I would support. However, mass nominating them without doing cursory research into these occupation/ethnicity combinations is not helpful for Wikipedia. Nominations like this tend to encourage a view that the European experience in North America was a homogenous one, whereas numerous studies have demonstrated that Greeks, Russians, Poles, etc have had widely varying and unique experiences. Noting that none of the categories nominated are for non-Europeans, we should consider whether this makes sense in light of the extensive literature on this subject.--User:Namiba 18:28, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Better to read citations before using them for an argument.
 * While play acting is a feature of pro-wrestling, ethnicity does not change the activity itself. In the example of Full Blooded Italians, the premise is J.T. Smith adopted the gimmick of believing himself to be an Old World Italian (despite being African American). That example proves the rule that there is/was nothing distinct and unique about Italian-American professional wrestling.
 * Having a category for white actors performing in blackface or yellowface wouldn't pass the smell test.
 * Best to actually read the dissertation, rather than just the title or abstract. Nothing there validates any notion of a distinct and unique ethnic method of pro-wrestling. You don't have to be German to perform a German suplex.
 * Contrast with the gangsters categories, where they must be that ethnicity for membership.
 * The nominator is not required to prove that there can never be a head article for each category. It is impossible to prove a negative.
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * William Allen Simpson, it would be wise of you to refresh yourself on what WP:OCEGRS says, as it doesn't mention, nevermind require a unique method. It says that categories should exist for intersections which are "recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right." As I have noted, Italian-Americans have been recognized as such in fields like professional wrestling.--User:Namiba 02:33, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In 2009, after extensive discussion here, I'd added "ethnicity" to our guidelines.
 * We don't have room for every possible example, so it has been updated from time to time. I'm familiar with what we collectively meant at that time, when the primary example read: "For instance, in sports, German-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans." See Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 29 and Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 16. Prior to December 2006, that sentence read, "For instance, in sports, Christian ice skaters are not treated differently from Jewish or Muslim ice skaters."
 * Your note is facially incorrect. The running gag of the group was that most of the wrestlers were obviously not of Italian descent.... An African-American mimicking supposedly Italian-American stereotypical mannerisms is not recognition, it is ridicule for laughs.
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge and delete per WP:OCEGRS. People should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career. These "of foo descent" are the equivalent of "foo-americans" (and many of them were previously so named). For example, there are is nothing distinct and unique about Italian-American professional wrestlers (listed twice). Where is the substantial and encyclopedic head article?
 * Some of these are subject to speedy deletion as re-creation of previously deleted categories.
 * Category:American sportspeople of Armenian descent
 * Category:American sportspeople of Italian descent
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, it would help if you were more familiar with the policy. It clearly states that "If a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) cannot be written for such a category, then the category should not be created. Please note that this does not mean that the head article must already exist before a category may be created, but that it must at least be reasonable to create one. There does not need to be a head article, only that one could be written.
 * Re: Italian Americans in sports, there is a well-studied connection that demonstrates an encyclopedic value. For example, Sport and the Shaping of Italian-American Identity By Gerald R. Gems, Beyond DiMaggio: Italian Americans in Baseball By Lawrence Baldassaro, and The playing fields of St. Louis: Italian immigrants and sports, 1925-1941
 * GR Mormino - Journal of Sport History, 1982. Given the expansive treatment given to the Italian-American experience in sports, it is clear that an encyclopedia shouldn't ignore it. User:Namiba 16:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding Italian Americans in trade unionsts, see From Margins to Vanguard to Mainstream: Italian Americans and the Labor Movement By Marcella Bencivenni--User:Namiba 16:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As I've already documented, there are few around who are more familiar (as I'd helped write it).
 * Those would be in Category:Baseball literature under Category:Works about sports. This is Categorization of people.
 * Also, this is not baseball.
 * We require that the sport topic in its own right be distinct and unique to Italian-Americans.
 * We require that the union topic in its own right be distinct and unique to Italian-Americans.
 * Comment — when this was previously decided at Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 16, then signing as "TM" was the only holdout. There's no way to convince this person, who has long been against consensus. So this is my final response here.
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * My final statement on this is that Italian-Americans and many other Euro-American groups have been recognized in scholarship as a distinct and unique group. Therefore, I still recommend keeping them for now. This discussion shows that there is no consensus to delete.-- User:Namiba 15:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:41, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the rest, but please keep Armenian-American writers, a distinct cultural topic about which it would be reasonable to write a head article. The section at Armenian Americans could definitely be expanded using sources like The Theme of Genocide in Armenian Literature (more on Americans than is clear from the title), Contemporary Armenian-American Drama, and works published in or about Ararat Quarterly. Many of the writers included in the category—all the ones I checked—have their ethnic identity connected to their work. The novelists and poets explore diasporic identity and "becoming American", and the historians and memoirists often focus on documenting the genocide, sometimes from personal experience. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC) striking 04:57, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the category contents,
 * very few are writing about the Armenian genocide. That seems reasonably well covered by Category:Armenian American literature.
 * this is a strong example of category creep. What exactly is the distinct and unique Armenian-American writing in films Awakenings, Gangs of New York, Moneyball and The Irishman?
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping, . I found more sources with significant coverage of Armenian-American writers: The Magical Pine Ring: Culture and Imagination in Armenian-American Literature, a great chapter in New Immigrant Literatures in the United States: A Sourcebook to Our Multicultural Literary Heritage, and Forgotten Bread: First-Generation Armenian American Writers. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It appears that we are in substantial agreement:
 * WP:COP-HERITAGE requires These categories should not be created without a substantial and encyclopedic well sourced head article describing the contents (not just a list). Since there is none, delete it.
 * Most of Category:American writers of Armenian descent should just be removed in any case. There is no distinct and unique Armenian-American writing in films.
 * As to the other external coverage, look again: we are not discussing removal of Category:Armenian American literature; moreover, decent categories are not for "first-generation" at all! WP:COP-HERITAGE should not also contain any individual migrant, emigrant, nor immigrant ....


 * I struck my !vote per the above WP:COP-HERITAGE point. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:57, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge and delete per WP:OCEGRS, Marcocapelle and William Allen Simpson. The trouble here is the triple intersection of being American, of such profession and of a certain ethnic or cultural background. In previous discussions, we had argued that it was not because a writer is of Greek or Italian background that the entirety of their life and work will be assigned in some sort of ethnic literature. For those who do work predominantly in a field related to their own diaspora culture, the specific work can be categorized as part of Fooian-American culture. The trouble with categories such as Armenian-American male actors is that users will add any actor with an Armenian great-great-great-grandparent regardless of the actual relevance to the individual biography. See for instance how Cher is currently in, although she arguably does not sing Armenian music (her article mentions some public statements in support of Armenia in the context of the 2020 Karabagh war, though). Place Clichy (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: As this discussion stands, there is now sufficient consensus to merge and delete, following policies and precedents. I have listified Category:American film directors of Italian descent to List of Italian-American film directors. This is a lot easier to do before deletion (using User:DannyS712/Cat links.js) than afterwards, so I'm not rushing to close this in case others may want to convert further categories to listings. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I just want to note how ridiculous it is to delete certain categories, such as the trade unionist one. There is extensive literature documenting how Italians in America had a unique experience in the labor movement. They formed their own organizations and often faced intense discrimination. All of this is widely documented. Being an Italian in the US labor movement is as defining to Luigi Antonini as being African-American was to A. Philip Randolph. I note that ONLY categories for certain European groups are nominated here, not for African-Americans or other ethnic groups in the US.--User:Namiba 20:05, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep: The importance of literature in relation to the Italian-American identity and the intersection of sports (especially boxing) with Italian ethnicity in the United States is very well-documented. As for the trade unionist category, Italian immigrants in the US and Italian-Americans notably fought adamantly in support of unions and workers' rights, as seen in the influence of Carlo Tresca, the Lawrence Textile Strikes, the aftermath of the Triangle Waist Factory fire, and the Palmer Raids. These categories are indeed relevant and incredibly useful, especially in regard to Italian-Americans in the boxer and trade unionist categories. Why specifically target only the Italian-American boxer category? It just seems strange and unnecessary, especially when one considers how much influence Italian-American boxers have had over American pop culture. The Italian diaspora and Italian-American history are unique and not-insignificant areas of diasporic, ethnic, and sociological studies; these categories are certainly not superfluous or unwarranted. Deleting the "American boxers of Italian descent" category but none of the other "ethnic" American boxer categories seems especially absurd; the vast amount of literary works, essays, and films focusing on Italian-Americans and Italian immigrants in the US who turned to boxing would seem to render obvious the idea that Italian-American ethnicity and boxing are intertwined (not to mention how, unfortunately, ethnicity has historically been emphasized and shamelessly exploited in boxing promotion). MallonsTalons (talk) 05:00, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge / delete per WP:OCEGRS. Trivial intersections.  Kbdank71 20:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:DIFFUSE. I don't even want to imagine how overpopulated the categories would be if they were merged into categories that are already overpopulated. Also per User:Namiba's arguments in terms of ethnic distinction. SuperSkaterDude45 20:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kremlintarians
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting kremlintarians
 * Nominator's rationale: No corresponding article on Wikipedia. Category is being applied to living people without sourcing. The main reference here is to a WP:USERG wiki site. Elizium23 (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:53, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's wildly used on Twitter and is mentioned in article https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/kremlintarians-russia-s-war-on-ukraine-exposes-great-libertarian-divide-20221006-p5bnp9.html also in use on reddit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GoodDoggoIsGood (talk • contribs) 18:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment This category is empty. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment, it would be a better idea to start writing a draft article about it and see whether it passes notability requirements. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Universal Classic Monsters films
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Universal Classic Monsters films

Category:Russian traditional
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:45, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Russian traditional music groups to Category:Russian folk music groups without redirect
 * Nominator's rationale: Match other Russian folk categories. Category:Russian traditional music was recently speedily moved back to Category:Russian folk music.
 * Propose renaming Category:Russian traditional dances to Category:Russian folk dances without redirect
 * Nominator's rationale: This (and the main article) was moved without discussion. The main article does not translate as "traditional"; it translates as "folk".


 * This has played havok with commons categories, and other related categories such as:
 * Category:Russian folk music|Dances
 * Category:Dance in Russia|Folk
 * Category:European folk dances
 * Category:Russian folk culture|Dances

William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:04, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * All of the other changes from folk to traditional have been reverted.

Also noting that this change was done without discussion (via category redirect) by a user with rather contentious views, such as insisting that Lithuanian wasn't an actual language in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and some arbcom referrals for disruptive editing. Thus, I've brought this to our formal process to revert. William Allen Simpson (talk) 00:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment, quite a lot of the category content is related to traditional music of ethnic minorities in Russia, so I am not sure if the adjective "Russian" in the category name should be kept this way. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the (mostly reverted) changes from "folk" to "traditional" were part of an effort to subsume all these Russian Empire conquered ethnic groups into being something Russian by tradition. "Folk music" has a very specific meaning in the folklore academic literature. We shouldn't be amalgamating that into a less specific genre. Better to split the others into Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc.
 * Category:Folk music is a subcategory of Category:Traditional music so traditional music is not necessarily wrong. But Category:Russian folk music is a subcategory of Category:Traditional music by ethnicity and if we apply the ethnic aspect here as well the category might just as well be deleted by lack of ethnic Russian content. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. But we're not supposed to empty categories during discussion. Also, this is complicated by the category renaming a few years ago from "Imperial Russian" prefix to "of the Russian Empire" suffix.


 * I have had discussions with the user who renamed these objects and I also support the renaming them back (and this user himself has also already changed his views). His reasons for renaming these objects into "traditional" - mainly relate to the fact that there is also a so-called staged/scenic/concert folk dance imitating folk dance. I was building a hierarchy for these objects on wikidata and here it is - (Russian subtype is ). Back then, the author of the renaming believed that it should be a subspecies of traditional dance, but he and I have come to the conclusion that it is still only a subclass/subcategory of contemporary dance, but not a subtype of folk dance (as it is only inspired by it). The category "traditional" itself is a little bit meaningless, because any classical dance school (ballet) is also based on traditions (but they are of art/studied sphere). So I prefer to split item into "traditional folk" and "classical/art" instead.
 * Regarding the division into "of Russia" (country) and "Russian" (ethnic group) - such a division does make sense as well. In general, for objects describing the country we use names like "Dance in Russia", which can already include all ethnic minorities subtypes. Solidest (talk) 12:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * By the way, the situation is the same for Belarussian dances - Belarusian traditional dance + also should be renamed back to folk. Solidest (talk) 12:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Political slurs for people
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Political slurs for people

Category:Muslim encyclopedists
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Muslim encyclopedists

Category:Works based on the Quran
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:44, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: soft merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Works based on the Quran to Category:Quran
 * Nominator's rationale: upmerge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:40, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Scholars of the Ottoman Empire
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 27%23Category:Scholars of the Ottoman Empire

Category:Muslim scholars by period
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:47, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Muslim scholars by period to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world by state
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, based on the actual content the scope of the two categories appears to coincide. "By state" is more accurate than "by period". Marcocapelle (talk) 22:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge. I have added a "see also" link to the target at the nominated category's parent Category:People by religion and period. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Albanian gestures
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Albanian gestures to Category:Albanian culture
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT that is not part of an established scheme. Both entries are already in Category:Hand gestures, and one is already in Category:Albanian culture. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 07:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bitcoin mixer
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting bitcoin mixer
 * Nominator's rationale: Pointless - contains only one redirect. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bitcoin theft
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Bitcoin theft to Category:Bitcoin and Category:Cryptocurrency theft
 * Nominator's rationale: Only three entries. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.