Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 November 29



Category:Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  21:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties to Category:Six Dynasties
 * Propose renaming Category:Characters of the Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern Dynasties to Category:Six Dynasties people
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, it may well be a case for speedying per WP:C2D but I am not an expert in Chinese history so I am posting it here anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment I have notified WP:CHINA in the hope of getting more expert input. For background, according to Six Dynasties, "Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern Dynasties" is another name for the period of the Six Dynasties. The six dynasties were all based in Jiankang in modern Nanjing. The category seems to cover Category:Three Kingdoms, Category:Jin dynasty (266–420) and Category:Northern and Southern dynasties so perhaps it could just be deleted. TSventon (talk) 13:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Expert input There is a minor difference between the terms "Six Dynasties" and "Wei, Jin, and the Southern and Northern dynasties": the latter includes polities which exerted de facto control over large geographic swathes of what had been Han China, but whose ruling class came from ethnic groups other than Han Chinese and relatedly were not seen by traditional Chinese historographers as being legitimate transmitters of the culture or recipients of the Mandate of Heaven. The Six Dynasties, by contrast, includes only those states controlled by the ethnic Han (and includes the Wei dynasty but not the Eastern Wu dynasty, their capital cities notwithstanding, pace our Six Dynasties article, which I don't have a reference on hand to correct at the moment). Tl;dr the term "Six Dynasties" excludes the northern dynasties.
 * I'm not familiar with Wikipedia's category tree structure or any related policies, but there's particular difficulty here with the Wei dynasty, which is included in the Three Kingdoms period as well as both of the dynastic buckets discussed here. The Three Kingdoms were not a recognized period in traditional Chinese historiography, which transitions cleanly from Han to Wei (and, in some cases, even directly to Jin) with no acknowledged interruption. Neither the "Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern dynasties" nor the "Six Dynasties" cover the entirety of the Three Kingdoms period, the dates of which are not agreed upon in any case. Again, I have no reference at hand for this knowledge, but Category:Three Kingdoms doesn't belong as a subcategory of the category under discussion any more than it does as a subcategory of  Category:Han dynasty.
 * I think my position would be do not rename, since the current category name includes all of the powers historically controlling parts of what one might call "geographical China", whereas the proposed new name does not. The political tumult of the temporal span from the end of the Han to the Sui conquest ill complies with the simplistic framing we humans like. 98.246.75.122 (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete - We already have categories for all of the Six Dynasties, so we don't need these categories. Mucube (talk) 23:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, as noted in the Six Dynasties article, "Six Dynasties" and "Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern Dynasties" refer to different things. The "Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern Dynasties" refers to the historical period that the Six Dynasties cover, but "Six Dynasties" refers to the six Han-ruled dynasties that made their capital in Jiankang. Mucube (talk) 23:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * (as nom) As two editors above implied, we already have the subcategories in the tree of Category:Dynasties in Chinese history so I have no issue with deletion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI, The chart below represents the whole Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern dynasties period and the dynasties marked in bold are the six dynasties.
 * ''Note: * 266 in Gregorian calendar.
 * --魔琴 (Zauber Violino) (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, this is a very nice overview. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:44, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * do not rename: Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties is a well-known concept in Chinese history (especially in Sinophone world) and it isn't Six Dynasties. There are identical categories in zhwiki, jawiki and kowiki.--迴廊彼端 (talk) 07:54, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I checked the Chinese Wikipedia category, and, to me at least, it just looks like a dumping ground for articles that haven't been categorized specifically yet. Mucube (talk) 05:18, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Qwerfjkl: There are few users who care categorization on zhwiki. Also there are several articles related to Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties on zhwiki like Epitaphs made in the Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties, Literature in the Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties, the status of women in the Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties and Clothes in the Wei Jin Southern and Northern Dynasties.--迴廊彼端 (talk) 11:02, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I think this is addressed to @Mucube? — Qwerfjkl  talk  20:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Victims of Mahsa Amini protests

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Victims of Mahsa Amini protests to Category:People killed in the Mahsa Amini protests
 * Propose renaming Category:Victims of Iran protests to Category:People killed in protests in Iran added November 23
 * Nominator's rationale: Per similar categories such as Category:People killed in the Arab Spring and Category:People killed in the French Revolution. Charles Essie (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You created this category so I would love to know what you think. Charles Essie (talk) 22:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Support, more precise. The parent category might be renamed too. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why does the parent category need to be renamed? Charles Essie (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * For consistency, to Category:People killed in protests in Iran. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, that parent category. I thought you we're talking about Category:Mahsa Amini protests. I agree completely. Charles Essie (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added that category to the nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The Category:Victims of Iran's November 2019 protests has more than one entry now, and I think there will be more. For the second, I prefer Category:People killed in the Mahsa Amini protests instead of Category:Victims of Mahsa Amini protests which I created. -- Darafsh  (Talk) 04:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * It sounds like we're all in favor of the move. Should we get on with it? Charles Essie (talk) 21:58, 4 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Victims of Iran's November 2019 protests
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 7%23Category:Victims of Iran's November 2019 protests

Category:Netherlands Public Broadcasting original programming

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging, , and to
 * Nominator's rationale: The first, second and third channels are in the same entity (NPO, a governing body composing of 13 public broadcasters as members (AVROTROS, BNNVARA, EO, HUMAN, KRO-NCRV, MAX, NOS, NTR, ON!, PowNed, VPRO, WNL and ZWART), which i'd almost created them as categories); this should be merged into this "parent category". Saisønisse (talk) 09:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Differnt channels, different cateogries. Gonnym (talk) 11:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment, I have no opinion about the merge as such, but if merged the target should probably become Category:Nederlandse Publieke Omroep (organisation) original programming per article title Nederlandse Publieke Omroep (organisation). By the way I am not too sure if the disambiguator in the article title is necessary but that is a different discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * — That's right, the Dutch NPO section is on hold and will discuss later. For now, it is okay for the Flemish VRT and Wallonian RTBF categories to be merged into that "parent categories". Saisønisse (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:46, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Categories like this are organized at the level of the specific channel, not at the level of the channels' owner — if a company owns three channels that provide distinct programming from each other, then that means three separate categories. Bearcat (talk) 13:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * In this particular case it is arguable whether the programming is different (enough). One may argue that the three channels only serve to broadcast more rather than to broadcast differently. For sure the differences between the 13 member companies are bigger than the differences between the channels. The member companies broadcast on all three channels. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * a possible way out in this discussion is to merge to Category:Nederlandse Publieke Omroep (organisation) original programming and thereafter diffuse by the member companies, or at least by the bigger ones. The way public broadcasting is organized in the Netherlands is probably unique in the world, and this alternative proposal would reflect that. What do you think? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

American men by occupation

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:39, 21 November 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: soft merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:20th-century American men by occupation to Category:20th-century American men
 * Propose merging Category:21st-century American men by occupation to Category:21st-century American men
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, the parent category is not expected to contain much else than a few occupation subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:United Mine Workers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:United Mine Workers to Category:United Mine Workers of America
 * Propose renaming Category:United Mine Workers litigation to Category:United Mine Workers of America litigation
 * Propose renaming Category:Labor disputes led by the United Mine Workers to Category:Labor disputes led by the United Mine Workers of America
 * Nominator's rationale: To match the parent article (United Mine Workers of America). User:Namiba 20:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Weak support, the article was moved in June without discussion, we may assume that it is a stable title by now. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: I added Category:United Mine Workers litigation for consistency.--User:Namiba 13:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rank and file labor unions

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting rank and file labor unions
 * Nominator's rationale: Delete as subjective. There is no article for rank and file labor unions nor a clear definition. User:Namiba 18:27, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:41, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree. This should just be renamed to syndicalist unions. These are synonymous terms.
 * Rank and file
 * Syndicalism Buddsean (talk) 12:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Cajun/Creole restaurants in the United States
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 December 7%23Category:Cajun/Creole restaurants in the United States

Category:Horse in Chinese mythology

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:25, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Horse in Chinese mythology to Category:Horses in Chinese mythology
 * Nominator's rationale: Matching the plural used in the lead article Horses in Chinese mythology as well as all parents & siblings such as Category:Horses in mythology and Category:Horses in Norse mythology. This was opposed as a Speedy rename on the grounds that this is a topic category, containing temples as well as horses. However, IMHO plural names in categories should not be restricted to set categories, where the topic as named in natural English uses the plural. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:15, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Support as a matter of common language. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: see also Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_November_25.– Fayenatic  L ondon 22:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.