Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 November 7



Category:Twin-stick shooters

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy rename then split to new sub-category. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Twin-stick shooters to Category:Multidirectional shooters
 * Nominator's rationale: + create new cat for Twin-stick shooters. Many articles on the cat do not use joysticks, use a single joystick, or dont fit the category of "Twin-stick shooters". Propose making a new cat for twin stick shooters if needed. PerryPerryD  Talk To Me 17:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note Category:Multidirectional shooters was renamed to Category:Twin-stick shooters under a Speedy Discussion. PerryPerryD Talk To Me 17:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Zxcvbnm as the oirignal nominatior of the rename stated above. I invite you to case your !vote on this. PerryPerryD  Talk To Me 18:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see the motive behind changing from Multidirectional to Twin-stick shooters, but some accuracy was lost in the process. We should figure out how to split these, since so many multi-directional shooters aren't played with the "twin stick" control scheme. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Twin-stick shooter is a subcategory of Multidirectional shooter. So the right course of action would be to rename the old category back, make the new category a subcategory of the old ones, and move any actual twin-stick shooters in the main category into the subcategory. At least that way the category names aren't inaccurate during the moving process - just a bit broad. ReneeWrites (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People educated at British public schools

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  20:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:People educated at British public schools to Category:People educated at independent schools in the United Kingdom
 * Nominator's rationale: Category:Public schools in the United Kingdom is a redirect to Category:Independent schools in the United Kingdom. This is a recent creation by Rathfelder (July 22). An alternative is to delete as Rathfelder has (in 3 months) only managed to find 27 of the 200+ independent schools in the UK. [addressed] Oculi (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Happy with the renaming in principle, but most of the articles call them public schools, and changes in the system means there is the possibility of confusion. There are 50 in Category:Independent schools in Berkshire alone. Category:Academies in England says they are "a kind of independent, state-funded secondary school". Independent schools includes things like Red Balloon Learner Centres which are very different.   Categorisation of schools in England has become quite complicated.  Rathfelder (talk) 12:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No it hasn't. The distinction between a modern Public school (United Kingdom) and an "independent school" is pretty simple. Their heads are members of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference. Neither our article nor their website seem to give a figure, but there are about 200 of them (the article has a long list), whereas "Every year ISC (Independent Schools Council) publishes an annual census based on a survey carried out of all its 1,377 member schools..." No doubt many "independents" are not notable but all the "publics" should be. Pre-school centres are something else entirely. We have Category:Member schools of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference with 15 sub-cats and 300 members (which seems a bit high to me). I don't think I object to Category:People educated at British public schools, but it should be filled properly. Failing that it should be merged. Once again, Rathfelder has set up a category but not done the work to fill it, which would be quite easy in this case, as only the existing by school sub-cats should need adding. Instead he has lost interest and gone off to create other half-assed schemes he will also abandon when 10% filled. Johnbod (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Category:People educated at public schools (United Kingdom) would do perfectly well. I think there should be an obligation on category creators to do it properly: think about the name, give a proper category description linked to an article and populate the category. Category:Judges educated at British public schools is another partially-assed Rathfelder creation, giving the impression that 75% of such judges went to Eton, and that there is a pronounced bias towards people whose surnames begin with A or B. Oculi (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid when it was proposed to delete Category:Judges educated at Eton College I stopped working on it and related categories, but I have gone back to them now. Rathfelder (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: was renamed to  at this cfd: 2007 July 17#Category:Public schools in England. Oculi (talk) 19:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we should revisit that discussion. Rathfelder (talk) 20:04, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The article makes a clear distinction between public schools and independent schools, but our categorisation doesnt.Rathfelder (talk) 22:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, Category:Member schools of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference catches the public schools, though some are no doubt more "public" than others. Johnbod (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete or rename "Public school" is a term notoriously difficult to pin down with numerous different definitions that produce different lists (not everyone takes HMC membership as the sole definition) and little agreement beyond Eton, Harrow and a few others always being on them. It's even worse with Scotland where the term has historically been used for both fee paying schools and state schools and these days doesn't seem to be used that much at all. And it's not clear what the term is in Northern Ireland at all - all the HMC members seem to be "voluntary grammar schools". Many schools have shifted their status throughout their history which causes confusion - e.g. did Theresa May go to a comprehensive school? Did Sir Keir Starmer go to a private school? (In both cases the school changed status after they had started.) Simply renaming is tricky as there are many different types of fee paying schools (there are many fee paying faith schools that are far closer to state schools than HMC) so delete is probably best. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:23, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It doesnt make sense to delete Category:People educated at British public schools but leave Category:Independent schools in the United Kingdom Rathfelder (talk) 20:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It makes complete sense. Independent schools are defined by how the schools are funded, not a single experience. "Public school" is not a clearly defined term with a single canonical list. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The articles about the schools all start along the lines of "Charterhouse is a public school (English independent boarding school for pupils aged 13–18) ....". The categorisation clearly needs a lot of work but I think "independent schools" would be misleading. Rathfelder (talk) 08:12, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Could we have Category:People educated at British member schools of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference? Though its very long.  Isnt People educated at British public schools just a shortcut for that? Rathfelder (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you look above Category:People educated at public schools (United Kingdom) has already been suggested; article Public school (United Kingdom). It is the Head who belongs to the conference, not the school. I have added a note to this effect at the top of the category. I note that you have now added many more schools and I withdraw the 'delete' suggestion. Oculi (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * We need to think about the title and the exclusion criteria. I did find one article about a school Greenford High School which didnt seem to be like other public schools, but its former head was a member of the HMC.  There arent many girls schools in the HMC, and of course some of the schools have closed or merged. Rathfelder (talk) 07:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:29, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The comment (by a now blocked user) about not all HMC schools being the same is very telling. Trying to categorise people by membership of an organisation made up of school heads without a clear unambiguous use of the organisation to define a set of institutions is rather convoluted. Just delete as the easiest solution. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Given the difficulties involved with this scheme and the blocking of Rathfelder I too believe that delete is now the easiest solution. There is a 'judges' subcat that might need attention. Oculi (talk) 16:31, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep but use a headnote to define the scope as related to HMC. The common term is Public School, though it is in a way a misleading term.  I am sorry to learn that Rathfelder has been blocked as I regarded him as making useful contributions.  The corollary to Public School used to be State school, meaning state-funded.  Some of these were council-owned; others were voluntary-aided or voluntary-controlled, according to whether there was a foundation responsible for providing capital funding for buildings etc.  However this has been complicated by the rise of academies.  The ultimate difference is whether the funding is or is not mainly from the state.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:41, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep; the added tagline 'This category is for people educated at schools whose headteacher is a member of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference' is helpful. The list of schools now appears to be a list of institutions where the head is a member.  'HMC membership' is the widest/loosest definition of a public school, so I would keep it as it stands and not try and include a further expansion to ~1400 'independent schools'.Hjamesberglen (talk) 11:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The most common definition of a public school is one whose head is a member of HMC. As has already been stated, almost every one of these should be regarded as notable. There is no value in changing the scope. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Architecture of the Taifas
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 November 15%23Category:Architecture of the Taifas

Category:Concordia Stingers basketball players
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 November 15%23Category:Concordia Stingers basketball players