Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 2



Category:Pending AfC submissions by Doncram

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. If the creator of the category wants to track their submissions in a sandbox, feel free to do so, but the category can be deleted. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting pending afc submissions by doncram
 * Nominator's rationale: Empty maintenance category, which was created by the user named in it to serve a personal purpose outside the purview of AFC. From what I can tell, Doncram is under a "no creating new articles in mainspace" sanction that has him confined to AFC review, so he created this himself to hold all of his AFC submissions -- but the bot that disables category declarations on AFC drafts keeps disabling it when he tries to use it, because drafts can only be in categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance and status templates and not in categories that are directly declared in the format. This means that there are several drafts textlinking to the category but no drafts filed in the category, because the bot keeps converting attempts to file articles in the category back into text links again. From the category's "what links here", further, it only seems to be in use on three drafts, meaning that we're not talking about a massive onslaught of drafts that needs special handling. If AFC ever decides that there's a need to categorize some or all users' submissions as "Pending AFC submissions by Specific User", then it will create a template to tag and categorize drafts accordingly, but until such a need has been identified Doncram's submissions aren't of any unique priority that would require special treatment over and above the rest of the AFC queue. If Doncram wants to keep track of his submissions to AFC for his own personal purposes, then he can always do that by means of a personal worklist in his sandbox -- but they don't need their own dedicated category in the pending AFC review queue, especially if it doesn't even work properly. Bearcat (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete in the spirit of WP:USERNOCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per Categories for discussion/Log/2021 December 11 * Pppery * it has begun... 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Created with good intent but proven to be useless after the event. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm not too happy to randomly discover that this conversation is going on, with speculation and judgments (not awful ones, but still), without informing me.  User:Bearcat, why not notify me?  A different editor had questioned the existence of the category, and I responded and made some changes that partially addressed the functionality, and also I made a request to the owner of the bot which has most directly undermined it, which you are not aware of.  Y'all are harshing unnecessarily IMHO, don't y'all have better things to do?


 * I don't like the insinuation of my wanting special treatment. It wasn't crazy or selfish or anything like that, as there previously existed such a category under slightly different name, which was in use for a couple years then not used for a while and was deleted.  It is a reasonable kind of thing to allow, for myself and other editors.  Keeping a worklist is not the same; it doesn't update.


 * I do happen to have at least 6 articles under AfC review, which on average have been pretty long outstanding, which is mildly demoralizing, by the way, although I thought there were more (and maybe there are). One function of this would be to direct attention of AfC editors familiar with types of articles I often create (which was a good function of the previous version).  And some of the articles outstanding are definitely valid articles (I know from experience), but are list-articles which as a type seems to be outside the knowledge base or comfort area of most or all AfC editors.  Having a functional category would assist in raising discussion elsewhere about that, about list-article drafts of mine or more generally (and if the functionality were fixed, then similar categories could be used to classify outstanding AfC-submitted articles for analysis/discussion along these lines).


 * However I do see that the category is not working now, and now it is targeted by this proceeding, and I know it is generally futile or extremely difficult to fight this kind of bureaucratic proceeding once it is started in, arguably, the wrong forum. Like people opening an ANI process which brings in arguably bad or uninformed actors on a sourcing question, and which cannot be stopped, rather than discussing a source at the appropriate forum that exists for evaluating reliable sources, which led to my current restriction.  It is, frankly, a bit rude and disrespectful and demoralizing that the arguably wrong forum is being imposed, again.  I am not especially resenting you nominating this and participating here, because this is how it goes, and it has been raised in this forum.  But a politer alternative would have been to consult with me and then potentially assist my raising the technical/functional matter and the more general problem more successfully, or allowing me to request deletion myself.  FYI, there are no longer any usages of the template; i deleted the last usages before noticing the link from this discussion to the category. --Doncram (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2022 (UTC) (revised 00:43, 7 October 2022 (UTC))
 * Firstly, I use Twinkle to create nominations. Twinkle does certainly fail sometimes to complete all the steps, but if and when it does that it's not a problem that can be pinned on me as a failure on my part — because it isn't a nominator's responsibility to do a follow-up review of whether Twinkle actually completed all the steps Twinkle was supposed to complete. And as nice as it would be if everybody always got notified of everything at all times, it just doesn't actually happen that way — it's just reality on here that for a lot of different reasons you're not always going to get notified of every last thing that might be of interest to you, so it is ultimately your responsibility to stay on top of those things on your own rather than sitting back waiting for notifications that you're not always going to get.
 * Secondly, nobody attacked you; I understand the reasoning you thought you were aiming for, and was simply trying to explain why it doesn't work. Drafts simply cannot ever have any categories on them that are directly declared, and can only be in maintenance categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance and status templates — and bots simply don't have a way to distinguish between "category that should not be here at all" and "category that should be treated as a special exception", which is why your request over a month ago for this category to be coded as a special exemption from the bot process didn't go anywhere either. There just isn't any way to make the bot ignore a hardcoded category declaration on a draft, meaning there just isn't any way to keep this category populated.
 * What may have been done a decade ago, under different circumstances and different rules and different processes than we have now, has no bearing on what can be done today — as much as it might suck, the AFC queue is significantly backlogged, so it can take weeks for everybody's draft submissions to get reviewed. But that doesn't mean AFC owes your drafts special attention, over and above everybody else's drafts, just because they're yours, especially if there's just no way to make the category work the way you intended it to.
 * The only chance this ever has of drafts actually being able to stay in it without getting removed again is if AFC decides to create a template to categorize all AFC drafts for the identity of their creator, because drafts can only be filed in categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance templates. So if it just isn't serving the purpose you thought it was going to serve, and it can't be made to serve the purpose you thought it was going to serve, then what's the point in taking it personally? Bearcat (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It is a nominator's responsibility to make notification. There is no "but i used Twinkle" exception. --Doncram (talk) 15:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No. Notification is encouraged, but we do not have a rule that notification is invariably required — and we certainly don't have a rule that it would be my responsibility to apologize for a technical screwup that wasn't my fault, either. Bearcat (talk) 15:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Request: I see that I cannot myself rename or move this category, which I was about to try to do. If the decision of this process is to "delete" it, could the closer please rename it and move it to my user space (changing it so it is an article and no longer functionally a category), so that the history is maintained.  To, say, User:Doncram/Former category Pending AfC submissions by Doncram.  So that I might reference it and revisit history in future potential action or proposal to restore such a function for others. --Doncram (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And converting a category into a sandbox page would accomplish what? Bearcat (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You are saying that what's needed is an AFC template to create such a category, suggesting that advocating through AFC for creation of such a template, is the way forward to addressing this. Well, I just may take that up, and I am not 100 percent sure but i think my being able to retrieve history of what went on in my efforts, could be helpful.  No one should have a problem with that.  Or is there some shortage of storage space?  That argument for deletion has been repeatedly debunked;  it is all stored anyhow, and deletion just makes it impossible for me to see.
 * I have NOT particularly taken anything here personally, but someone pressing to erase all history, if that is what is going on, could begin to make it look like I should. --Doncram (talk) 15:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You tried to create a category that isn't actually useful, and can't actually be made useful. Nobody said there was a storage problem — but there is a "what's the substantive value of trying to preserve the history of a technically non-functional category?" problem.
 * And no, AFC is not likely to create a special template just for you and you alone, on the grounds that your submissions were somehow more important or special than everybody else's submissions. If AFC ever decides that there's value in automatically categorizing all AFC submissions for the identity of their creators across the board, that's one thing — but it's not going to give your drafts special "because they came from you" handling that other people's drafts don't also get. If you want to keep track of your submissions, the way forward is for you to maintain a worklist of your submissions in your sandbox, not trying to get a special category devoted to you personally. Bearcat (talk) 15:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Thai national heritage films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting thai national heritage films
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:TOPTEN violation. Although there's no head article to explain exactly what a "Thai national heritage film" is, and most of the articles filed here provide absolutely no context for their inclusion either, I've been able to sort out from one of the articles (Bad Genius) that the Thai Film Archive releases an annual list of films from the past year that it has deemed culturally or artistically significant -- basically Canada's Top Ten, but for Thailand instead of Canada. Accordingly, a properly sourced article that listed the inducted films would be fine, but we don't categorize for inclusion in other organizations' proprietary and copyrighted ranking lists. Bearcat (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Orientls (talk) 04:34, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Scientists of the Ayyubid Sultanate

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:22, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Scientists of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Scholars of the Ayyubid Sultanate
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two one subcategor y ies. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: has added another subcat (astronomers, alongside the older one for physicians). – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge keeping any subcats in place pending any discussion of them. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge -- This is a redundant category layer. "scientist" is in any event a problematic term in dealing with the medieval period.  The subcategories should appear directly under the scholars parent.  I note there is also a redundant layer for historians in this tree where the only category is for 13th century.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:38, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alawite communities in Syria

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting alawite communities in syria
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no need for this categorization of towns with an Alawite, Sunni or Druze majority. We do not see such categories in countries with religious or cultural pluralism, such as the United States or Iran and many other countries. Sakiv (talk) 17:44, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - the nom's rationale is mistaken: eg Category:Jewish communities in the United States and many others in Category:Ethnic enclaves in the United States and Category:Ethnic enclaves by country. Oculi (talk) 18:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hm, nearly all populated places in the northwest of Syria are or belong in this category, across two adjacent governorates and a few more adjacent districts of other governorates. Within this region it is not a defining characteristic at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:23, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep  - it is still relevant, especially in the context of the ongoing civil war in Syria and politics there which are often heavily influenced by religious orientation. The nominator's claim of WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST is both objectively false and inconsequential. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment What does the civil war have to do with this discussion? The category suggests that these villages/towns are inhabited exclusively by Alawites, and this is a huge mistake. There are more Alawites in Damascus than in any other region of Syria. The problem with this categories is that it is understood that they are like ghettos or have some kind of autonomy.--Sakiv (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - In the Middle East, the practice of endogamy within religious communities has meant that they come close to being ethnicities. If a place is dominated by people of one religious community, that deserves categorisation.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Province of Saxony

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: purge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose purging province of saxony
 * Nominator's rationale: purge populated places, this is a history category about a former province, it should not contain current places. Also per precedent Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_3. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Maybe we can add a note to the cat page to keep people from doing this again? Furius (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete and move main article into parent Category:Provinces of Prussia. The cited precedent was left containing only Province of Brandenburg‎ and Category:People from the Province of Brandenburg‎. That People sub-cat is contained anyway in Category:People from former German states in Brandenburg and Category:Prussian people by province, so it now appears a mistake to have kept Category:Province of Brandenburg. Now, as for Saxony, I can't see any valid content other than the lead article and the people sub-cat again. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * That is perfectly in line with the nomination, I support this too. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support. follows precedent. Agathoclea (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

African-American businesspeople

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:African-American sports executives and administrators to Category:African-American businesspeople and  Category:American sports executives and administrators
 * Propose merging Category:African-American bankers to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American bankers
 * Propose merging Category:African-American business executives to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American business executives
 * Propose merging Category:African-American company founders to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American company founders
 * Propose merging Category:African-American investors to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American investors
 * Nominator's rationale: merge as trivial intersections between ethnicity and occupation, see also WP:EGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:40, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep -- I checked three of these and they are all well-populated. My view is that if an intersection can be properly populated, it ought to be allowed.  In this case, these are people emerging from the era of segregation, when they were significantly disadvantaged, so that the achievement is all the greater.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:18, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep --I agree with Peterkingiron. They make sense in that they break down a larger category into more manageable entities and will only grow larger as more biographies are added.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Architecture by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename (with some vetting first). As a whole, there seems to be a consensus to move forward with the rename scheme and put the tree in line with the discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 2, but there are a number of particular cases that need to be vetted first. This will be listed at WP:CFD/W/M first to be looked at more closely.  bibliomaniac  1  5  03:10, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming:


 * Category:Architecture of Afghanistan to Category:Architecture in Afghanistan
 * Category:Architecture of Albania to Category:Architecture in Albania
 * Category:Architecture of Algeria to Category:Architecture in Algeria


 * Category:Architecture of Andorra to Category:Architecture in Andorra
 * Category:Architecture of Angola to Category:Architecture in Angola
 * Category:Architecture of Antigua and Barbuda to Category:Architecture in Antigua and Barbuda
 * Category:Architecture of Bermuda to Category:Architecture in Bermuda
 * Category:Architecture of the State of Palestine to Category:Architecture in the State of Palestine
 * Category:Architecture of Argentina to Category:Architecture in Argentina
 * Category:Architecture of Armenia to Category:Architecture in Armenia
 * Category:Architecture of Australia to Category:Architecture in Australia
 * Category:Architecture of Austria to Category:Architecture in Austria
 * Category:Architecture of Azerbaijan to Category:Architecture in Azerbaijan
 * Category:Architecture of Bangladesh to Category:Architecture in Bangladesh
 * Category:Architecture of Barbados to Category:Architecture in Barbados
 * Category:Architecture of Belarus to Category:Architecture in Belarus
 * Category:Architecture of Belgium to Category:Architecture in Belgium
 * Category:Architecture of Belize to Category:Architecture in Belize
 * Category:Architecture of Benin to Category:Architecture in Benin
 * Category:Architecture of Bhutan to Category:Architecture in Bhutan
 * Category:Architecture of Bolivia to Category:Architecture in Bolivia
 * Category:Architecture of Bosnia and Herzegovina to Category:Architecture in Bosnia and Herzegovina
 * Category:Architecture of Brazil to Category:Architecture in Brazil
 * Category:Architecture of Brunei to Category:Architecture in Brunei
 * Category:Architecture of Bulgaria to Category:Architecture in Bulgaria
 * Category:Architecture of Burkina Faso to Category:Architecture in Burkina Faso
 * Category:Architecture of Cambodia to Category:Architecture in Cambodia
 * Category:Architecture of Cameroon to Category:Architecture in Cameroon
 * Category:Architecture of Canada to Category:Architecture in Canada
 * Category:Architecture of Cape Verde to Category:Architecture in Cape Verde
 * Category:Architecture of Chile to Category:Architecture in Chile
 * Category:Architecture of China to Category:Architecture in China
 * Category:Architecture of Colombia to Category:Architecture in Colombia
 * Category:Architecture of the Republic of the Congo to Category:Architecture in the Republic of the Congo
 * Category:Architecture of Costa Rica to Category:Architecture in Costa Rica
 * Category:Architecture of Croatia to Category:Architecture in Croatia
 * Category:Architecture of Cuba to Category:Architecture in Cuba
 * Category:Architecture of Cyprus to Category:Architecture in Cyprus
 * Category:Architecture of the Czech Republic to Category:Architecture in the Czech Republic
 * Category:Architecture of Denmark to Category:Architecture in Denmark
 * Category:Architecture of Dominica to Category:Architecture in Dominica
 * Category:Architecture of the Dominican Republic to Category:Architecture in the Dominican Republic
 * Category:Architecture of Ecuador to Category:Architecture in Ecuador
 * Category:Architecture of Egypt to Category:Architecture in Egypt
 * Category:Architecture of El Salvador to Category:Architecture in El Salvador
 * Category:Architecture of Equatorial Guinea to Category:Architecture in Equatorial Guinea
 * Category:Architecture of Estonia to Category:Architecture in Estonia
 * Category:Architecture of Ethiopia to Category:Architecture in Ethiopia
 * Category:Architecture of Fiji to Category:Architecture in Fiji
 * Category:Architecture of Finland to Category:Architecture in Finland
 * Category:Architecture of France to Category:Architecture in France
 * Category:Architecture of Georgia (country) to Category:Architecture in Georgia (country)
 * Category:Architecture of Germany to Category:Architecture in Germany
 * Category:Architecture of Ghana to Category:Architecture in Ghana
 * Category:Architecture of Greece to Category:Architecture in Greece
 * Category:Architecture of Guatemala to Category:Architecture in Guatemala
 * Category:Architecture of Haiti to Category:Architecture in Haiti
 * Category:Architecture of Honduras to Category:Architecture in Honduras
 * Category:Architecture of Hong Kong to Category:Architecture in Hong Kong
 * Category:Architecture of Hungary to Category:Architecture in Hungary
 * Category:Architecture of Iceland to Category:Architecture in Iceland
 * Category:Architecture of India to Category:Architecture in India
 * Category:Architecture of Indonesia to Category:Architecture in Indonesia
 * Category:Architecture of Iran to Category:Architecture in Iran
 * Category:Architecture of Iraq to Category:Architecture in Iraq
 * Category:Architecture of Ireland to Category:Architecture in Ireland
 * Category:Architecture of the Republic of Ireland to Category:Architecture in the Republic of Ireland
 * Category:Architecture of Israel to Category:Architecture in Israel
 * Category:Architecture of Italy to Category:Architecture in Italy
 * Category:Architecture of Ivory Coast to Category:Architecture in Ivory Coast
 * Category:Architecture of Jamaica to Category:Architecture in Jamaica
 * Category:Architecture of Japan to Category:Architecture in Japan
 * Category:Architecture of Jordan to Category:Architecture in Jordan
 * Category:Architecture of Kenya to Category:Architecture in Kenya
 * Category:Architecture of Kosovo to Category:Architecture in Kosovo
 * Category:Architecture of Kuwait to Category:Architecture in Kuwait
 * Category:Architecture of Laos to Category:Architecture in Laos
 * Category:Architecture of Latvia to Category:Architecture in Latvia
 * Category:Architecture of Lebanon to Category:Architecture in Lebanon
 * Category:Architecture of Libya to Category:Architecture in Libya
 * Category:Architecture of Liechtenstein to Category:Architecture in Liechtenstein
 * Category:Architecture of Lithuania to Category:Architecture in Lithuania
 * Category:Architecture of Luxembourg to Category:Architecture in Luxembourg
 * Category:Architecture of Madagascar to Category:Architecture in Madagascar
 * Category:Architecture of Malawi to Category:Architecture in Malawi
 * Category:Architecture of Malaysia to Category:Architecture in Malaysia
 * Category:Architecture of Mali to Category:Architecture in Mali
 * Category:Architecture of Malta to Category:Architecture in Malta
 * Category:Architecture of Mauritius to Category:Architecture in Mauritius
 * Category:Architecture of Mexico to Category:Architecture in Mexico
 * Category:Architecture of Moldova to Category:Architecture in Moldova
 * Category:Architecture of Monaco to Category:Architecture in Monaco
 * Category:Architecture of Mongolia to Category:Architecture in Mongolia
 * Category:Architecture of Montenegro to Category:Architecture in Montenegro
 * Category:Architecture of Morocco to Category:Architecture in Morocco
 * Category:Architecture of Mozambique to Category:Architecture in Mozambique
 * Category:Architecture of Myanmar to Category:Architecture in Myanmar
 * Category:Architecture of Namibia to Category:Architecture in Namibia
 * Category:Architecture of Nepal to Category:Architecture in Nepal
 * Category:Architecture of the Netherlands to Category:Architecture in the Netherlands
 * Category:Architecture of New Zealand to Category:Architecture in New Zealand
 * Category:Architecture of Niger to Category:Architecture in Niger
 * Category:Architecture of Nigeria to Category:Architecture in Nigeria
 * Category:Architecture of North Korea to Category:Architecture in North Korea
 * Category:Architecture of North Macedonia to Category:Architecture in North Macedonia
 * Category:Architecture of Norway to Category:Architecture in Norway
 * Category:Architecture of Oman to Category:Architecture in Oman
 * Category:Ottoman architecture to Category:Architecture in the Ottoman Empire
 * Category:Architecture of Pakistan to Category:Architecture in Pakistan
 * Category:Architecture of Palau to Category:Architecture in Palau
 * Category:Architecture of Panama to Category:Architecture in Panama
 * Category:Architecture of Paraguay to Category:Architecture in Paraguay
 * Category:Architecture of Peru to Category:Architecture in Peru
 * Category:Architecture of the Philippines to Category:Architecture in the Philippines
 * Category:Architecture of Poland to Category:Architecture in Poland
 * Category:Architecture of Portugal to Category:Architecture in Portugal
 * Category:Architecture of Puerto Rico to Category:Architecture in Puerto Rico
 * Category:Architecture of Romania to Category:Architecture in Romania
 * Category:Architecture of Russia to Category:Architecture in Russia
 * Category:Architecture of Saint Kitts and Nevis to Category:Architecture in Saint Kitts and Nevis
 * Category:Architecture of Samoa to Category:Architecture in Samoa
 * Category:Architecture of São Tomé and Príncipe to Category:Architecture in São Tomé and Príncipe
 * Category:Architecture of Saudi Arabia to Category:Architecture in Saudi Arabia
 * Category:Architecture of Senegal to Category:Architecture in Senegal
 * Category:Architecture of Serbia to Category:Architecture in Serbia
 * Category:Architecture of Serbia and Montenegro to Category:Architecture in Serbia and Montenegro
 * Category:Architecture of Singapore to Category:Architecture in Singapore
 * Category:Architecture of Slovakia to Category:Architecture in Slovakia
 * Category:Architecture of Slovenia to Category:Architecture in Slovenia
 * Category:Architecture of Somalia to Category:Architecture in Somalia
 * Category:Architecture of South Africa to Category:Architecture in South Africa
 * Category:Architecture of South Korea to Category:Architecture in South Korea
 * Category:Architecture of the Soviet Union to Category:Architecture in the Soviet Union
 * Category:Architecture of Spain to Category:Architecture in Spain
 * Category:Architecture of Sri Lanka to Category:Architecture in Sri Lanka
 * Category:Architecture of Sudan to Category:Architecture in Sudan
 * Category:Architecture of Sweden to Category:Architecture in Sweden
 * Category:Architecture of Switzerland to Category:Architecture in Switzerland
 * Category:Architecture of Syria to Category:Architecture in Syria
 * Category:Architecture of Taiwan to Category:Architecture in Taiwan
 * Category:Architecture of Tanzania to Category:Architecture in Tanzania
 * Category:Architecture of Thailand to Category:Architecture in Thailand
 * Category:Architecture of Togo to Category:Architecture in Togo
 * Category:Architecture of Trinidad and Tobago to Category:Architecture in Trinidad and Tobago
 * Category:Architecture of Tunisia to Category:Architecture in Tunisia
 * Category:Architecture of Turkey to Category:Architecture in Turkey
 * Category:Architecture of Uganda to Category:Architecture in Uganda
 * Category:Architecture of Ukraine to Category:Architecture in Ukraine
 * Category:Architecture of the United Arab Emirates to Category:Architecture in the United Arab Emirates
 * Category:Architecture of the United Kingdom to Category:Architecture in the United Kingdom
 * Category:Architecture of the United States to Category:Architecture in the United States
 * Category:Architecture of Uruguay to Category:Architecture in Uruguay
 * Category:Architecture of Uzbekistan to Category:Architecture in Uzbekistan
 * Category:Architecture of Vatican City to Category:Architecture in Vatican City
 * Category:Architecture of Venezuela to Category:Architecture in Venezuela
 * Category:Architecture of Vietnam to Category:Architecture in Vietnam
 * Category:Architecture of Yemen to Category:Architecture in Yemen


 * Category:Yugoslav architecture to Category:Architecture in Yugoslavia
 * Category:Architecture of Zimbabwe to Category:Architecture in Zimbabwe
 * Category:Architecture of Czechoslovakia to Category:Architecture in Czechoslovakia (appended to this nomination on relisting)


 * Nominator's rationale: Many sub-categories already use "in", e.g. the sub-cats of Category:Baroque architecture by country. The discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 2 is going in the direction of using "in" rather than "of". In that discussion, I gave examples such as the Aswan Dam in Egypt being categorised as Soviet architecture, and there is a preference to exclude it from the Soviet category; to that end, the word "in" would make the criteria clearer. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support --Privybst (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose simply renaming as proposed. The current scheme is a result of a 2019 CfD, where it was noted that the Architecture of Foo formulation covers a dual meaning: architecture within a country's geographical boundaries, and architecture culturally/historically connected to the country. If renaming to Architecture in Foo is to be considered, it needs to be accompanied by a split of members in the latter sense into separate categories. For example, there's Category:French architecture outside France, which is understandably included under Architecture of France but would be blatantly incorrect under Architecture in France. There's Category:Chinese architecture in Thailand which is clearly not in China. All the nominated categories will need to be checked for such members, and a separate tree set up to house them. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Paul_012 Thank you for finding those. In addition I only found Category:Serbian architecture outside Serbia. Would it work to place a parent category e.g. Serbian architecture above Architecture in Serbia?  Would its parent be Architecture by nationality above Architecture by country? (that seems inappropriate – I hope we can do better than that.) – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:36, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * When preparing the 2019 CfD, I marked the categories for Armenia, Cambodia, China, Denmark, the Netherlands, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Iran, Italy, Japan, Morocco, North Korea, Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam as warranting splitting. I don't remember the exact reason for each of them, but generally they contained subcategories or articles that are more about the architectural tradition than the geographical location. (I was being conservative, so some might not actually be needed.) There's Category:Spanish Revival architecture and Category:Isabelline architecture under the Spain category, for example, that contain subcategories about the Americas. And Category:Dutch Colonial architecture under the Netherlands. Many of these are nested under by period or by style subcategories, and some aren't currently subdivided by location. There are also individual articles like Statue of Liberty under the France category, for which the categories will need to be checked. I don't think Architecture by nationality would be a good parent. Most that warrant their own category should be somehow accommodated under Category:Architectural styles Category:Architecture by style. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment: Pinging Levivich and Santasa99 from the last discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Paul. Per the 2019 CFD, these shouldn't be renamed until/unless each one is looked at to figure out the of/in issue. Some may need to be split (into "in" and "of" or "outside of") instead of just renamed. Paul explains it better (thanks for the ping). Levivich (talk) 16:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: Thanks Paul_012. I don't remember previous discussions, so I need to check those, but on first glimps here, one thing I am certain - creating parent per nationality, or in some cases even ethnicity, is wrong and should be avoided at all costs. Only per country makes sense, i.e. Architecture in X (country), unless we can prove that architectural style which includes Y nation/ethnicity name in its own actually exists. (I am not surprised, not in the slightest, that Fayenatic was able to find that incredible category named on non-existent "Serbian architecture outside Serbia"-based on non-existent "Serbian architecture", but from experience I can say it's not the only misappropriation based on ethno-national identity or name, even if it means making up names and in this case styles, within Balkan scope.)-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  20:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * If you guys/gals don't mind, I have emptied three items "Serbian architecture outside Serbia" contained, and I am not absolutely sure but should it be a problem if we considered it for deletion through this discussion?-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  20:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Before Santasa99 emptied one of them out of process, I was compiling the following list of content that was categorised as architecture outside its country of origin:
 * Category:Architecture of Armenia includes Category:Armenian buildings in Turkey and some bui:ldings in Azerbaijan
 * Category:Architecture of China includes Category:Chinese architecture in Malaysia‎, Category:Chinese architecture in Thailand‎ and Grauman's Chinese Theatre in US
 * Category:Architecture of Denmark includes List of castles in Skåne in Sweden and Jensen Alvarado Ranch in US (also Category:Buildings and structures by Danish architects includes e.g. Category:Jørn Utzon buildings worldwide, but that parenting is perfectly clear already)
 * Category:Architecture of Egypt currently parents Category:Ayyubid architecture and Category:Mamluk architecture, but these could be moved up, as the latter already has an "in Egypt" sub-cat
 * Category:French architecture outside France includes subcat for French Colonial, Statue of Liberty, a French-built bridge in Syria, and various French-style buildings
 * Category:Architecture of Germany includes Category:Resort architecture and Church of the Saviour, Baku, AZ
 * Category:Architecture of Greece indirectly contains Category:Ancient Greek theatres (4 outside Greece), clear already
 * Category:Architecture of India contains Category:Bengali architecture‎ which contains Category:Architecture of Bangladesh‎
 * Category:Architecture of Iran contains (at least) Category:Persian-Caucasian architecture‎ and Khanqah-e-Mualla Noorbakshia Khaplu Bala in Pakistan (now via )
 * Category:Architecture of Italy contains Category:Ancient Roman buildings and structures – clear already)
 * Category:Architecture of Japan contains Four Boxes Gallery in Denmark and Shofuso Japanese House and Garden in US
 * Category:Architecture of Morocco includes Minbar of the Kutubiyya Mosque directly (now via ) and (at least) Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca via Category:Almohad architecture
 * Category:Architecture of the Netherlands includes Category:Dutch Colonial architecture‎ and Category:Dutch Colonial Revival architecture‎
 * Category:Architecture of North Korea now contains Mansudae Overseas Projects (colossal statues in other countries)
 * Category:Architecture of Portugal includes Category:Portuguese Colonial architecture‎
 * Category:Architecture of Russia by period currently contains Category:Architecture of the Soviet Union – clear enough, that is, expected to include construction in the other former Soviet republics
 * Category:Architecture of the Soviet Union also includes dams built elsewhere with Soviet assistance: Aswan Dam in Egypt, Naghlu Dam and Sardeh Band Dam in Afghanistan
 * Category:Serbian architecture outside Serbia – two monuments in North Macedonia, and Serbian Orthodox church buildings worldwide
 * Category:Architecture of Slovenia includes K67 kiosk (an exported design) and others via
 * Category:Architecture of Spain includes Category:Spanish Colonial architecture‎, Category:Isabelline architecture‎ including Dominican Republic, and Category:Herrerian architecture including Puebla Cathedral in Mexico
 * I did not spot any similar current content for Cambodia, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand or Vietnam.


 * Some of these are no problem at all, but some like the French category hold substantial content, and appear valid and useful. That French category holds a mish-mash of styles, and I do not think it would help to put it under "architectural styles" as if French-outside-France was itself a style. Some countries have valid material but not enough to justify a separate sub-cat. I am minded to say we should stick with the prior consensus and keep "Architecture of" as the top category for each country's architecture. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Fayenatic, I think, and using either "of" or "in", at least for the time being, is OK, I have no particular preference - actually, I do, at least I do think that, if we are talking about architecture as a distinct art form, then we need to be careful and consider first discipline and then style as specific characteristic. Maybe I would be clearer if I say that it's not "French architecture" if something was built in French Guinea by French, just like in case of Soviet constructing a dam across the Middle East doesn't make it Soviet architecture, simply because hydroelectric power plants and dams belong to a civil-engineering specifically branch of hydro-engineering which have no distinct architectural style related to it. Meanwhile, there is no Soviet architecture per-se, we have real-socialist classicism, sometimes called Stalinist arch., or, sometime later, brutalist, and other styles related to those socio-political circumstances, but only when we talk about civil-engineering discipline of architectural engineering aka. building engineering. I think something should be done about these X-country/nation arch. outside of X, unless we have Ottoman arch. outside Turkey, or Roman arch. outside Italy, and so on.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  22:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the huge effort. I do think it would be optimal if we could come up with a way to systematically arrange these, but I can't quite think of a satisfactory solution either. The simplest option, aside from retaining the current arrangement, would probably be to have both Architecture of Foo and Architecture in Foo, with the latter falling under the former, but that isn't very helpful navigation-wise. As for the category breakdown, the Thailand category contains King Chulalongkorn Memorial Building in Sweden and Category:Overseas Thai Buddhist temples several steps down; likewise, Vietnam has Category:Overseas Vietnamese religious buildings and structures. (There are also Burmese, Cambodian and Japanese categories, though they're not currently parented under the architecture tree.) I think I expected Category:Angkorian sites, which contains sites in Laos and Thailand, to be under the Khmer category. South Korea and Taiwan I probably just included on the basis of needing to be merged if construed as traditions (Korean/Chinese). --Paul_012 (talk) 23:15, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There is some diaspora architecture, there is some architecture by style related to a certain country, but generally categorizing in country seems ok. There are also questionable category assignments such as Khanqah-e-Mualla Noorbakshia Khaplu Bala to an Iranian category while the article text does not make any reference to Iran. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * That example is now sub-catted to . – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:11, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Clarification of previous comment: diaspora architecture should be put in categories of their own, architecture by style related to a certain country is quite questionable (but if kept should be in categories of their own), for the remainder "in" is perfectly alright. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Most of the out-of-country content is held via sub-cats which are (i) clearly named and (ii) allowable under the WP:SUBCAT rule. For Chinese architecture, there is enough content to create Category:Chinese architecture outside China holding articles directly as well as sub-cats. Perhaps for the Soviet-built dams the best name might be Category:Soviet construction outside the Soviet Union, although I would not object to Category:Soviet architecture outside the Soviet Union like the others. The Iranian architecture example above is presumably so should go into that sub-cat.  Then all we need is Category:Danish architecture outside Denmark, and all the examples identified so far would be held via sub-cats rather than directly in the main country category. It might then be appropriate to collate them in a new Category:Diaspora architecture within Category:Diasporas.
 * The effect on the nominated categories would be that we should keep them named "Architecture of". Perhaps it would be useful to create a header template to appear on each country's category page, mentioning that its sub-categories may include architecture in other countries designed or influenced by architects and styles of this country.
 * We should still rename Category:Ottoman architecture to Category:Architecture of the Ottoman Empire, and Category:Yugoslav architecture to Category:Architecture of Yugoslavia. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The effect on the nominated categories would be that we should keep them named "Architecture of". --> That is not necessarily the case, because when we would have "in" we can simply add a See also note to a diaspora category if one exists. Because the large amount of countries do not have a diaspora category, "in" is still the more obvious choice. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that that this is an acceptable alternative. However, as there are further out-of-country contents "hidden" in e.g. or, for which we will not be creating "diaspora architecture" parents, I would still prefer using "of" at the top, with an explanatory note about the content. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:31, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment - Fellow editors, this thing with "diaspora architecture" is all wrong, and whatever you do don't reaffirm that nonsense. In reality, at the very most, diaspore can have its "buildings and constructions" but to claim architecture is insane, for two reasons: national arch doesn't exist, and even worse, it feeds nationalistic POV pushing on the project. (We have large number of articles on arch - which you should check - it's a messy but comprehensive group of articles, and nowhere will you be able find the division of architecture by nation-nationality-ethnicity, including the diaspora; that some arch styles are named per culture within which it was developed (Morish, Ottoman, Persian, etc.) that is not a reason to use similar pattern and divide it per modern nations (even when categorizing Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, etc. arch we should be careful not to confuse style with construction of modern buildings and utility) If any discussion comes up on this particular topic in the future, I am willing to elaborate in more comprehensive fashion, but for now, please avoid any action that would cement its usage or prevent any attempts to fix it.-- ౪ Santa ౪  99°  19:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's additional argument in form of a question(s): what is French architecture outside France(?); if French money, architect, builders erect a building/facility outside a French soil and the building is in style of modern arch or even in pseudo-morish style or neo-classical, etc. - what makes it "French diaspora architecture" or "French architecture outside France", specifically, and not simply "French building and construction in foo"? ౪ Santa ౪  99°  19:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * there is a discussion about the French category here: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_20. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support renaming of both "of" and "Foo's arch" to "Arch in Foo" per nom. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  19:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support generally with the exception of those identified by and I'd include Category:Architecture of the United Kingdom in this list of exceptions too - because it has a sub-category of "British colonial architecture". An alternative I suppose would be to re-create "Architecture of FOO" for the exceptions, if that is a more pragmatic and practical solution. And then we will also need to decide what to do about the "FOOian architects" categories, because they may not all be working exclusively (or at all) in their country of birth. Sionk (talk) 12:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * IMHO that's not a problem, because WP:SUBCAT is flexible enough to allow some exceptions. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: the French-outside-France category is not being retained, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_28. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:41, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: To clarify my above oppose !vote, I'm not opposed to a solution that includes a manual adjustment of the above-identified subcategories, though I don't have a preference as to the specific method. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:24, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Most of the overseas content is or can be held via sub-cats, and I believe the exceptions in those are allowable under the SUBCAT rule. But if we change to "in", how would we keep Four Boxes Gallery in Denmark and Shofuso Japanese House and Garden with the Japan hierarchy, if "Japanese architecture outside Japan" is not allowed? They seem to be unquestionably Japanese architecture. E.g. we could
 * (i) Keep the existing "of" category names.
 * (ii) Rename all using "in", but recreate old names as parents where needed. That would be somewhat messy and confusing.
 * (iii) Use "construction" rather than "architecture". There are multiple pages for "French construction outside France" and likewise for Soviet. However, there may be only one candidate for "Thai construction outside Thailand".
 * (iv) Set up a Japanese sibling to Category:Buildings and structures by Danish architects either as a sub-cat or with "see also" links to the national category, and allow these to hold articles directly (unlike the present Danish example) if outside the country, and keep them even for a very few pages. Note that this solution would still lose imitative examples like Grauman's Chinese Theatre in US. As for the "true collaboration" King Chulalongkorn Memorial Building in Sweden, Thai artists decorated it but the architect is not recorded; however, it would not improve Wikipedia to remove it from the Thai hierarchy.
 * It seems to me that these Japanese & Thai examples are stronger cases for retention in the national hierarchy than the French category criticised by Santasa99 above. Overall, despite the support from some editors for changing to "in", I now think it is best to keep the status quo using "of". – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is what I was talking about whole time, from where the whole confusion stems from: "Japanese House" and "Japanese Garden" are style's authentic names, these are not national/state preferential attributes. Japanese House can be Danish, designed by Dane erected in Danmark. This makes considerable problem: there is no city on planet without all kinds of arch styles, architecture in Danmark consists mostly of, say, Secession, and variety of other styles, including Japanese House; whereas architecture in Japan consists mostly of Japanese House, and all other styles you can get even a Secession. (Remark: however, even as the style name they are often colloquial because in Japanese they have different distinct names, because not all Japanese houses and gardens are designed in the same style.) If it helps, I would go with (iv) . ౪ Santa ౪  99°  19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Or combo between (iii) and (iv), and/or whatever is easier to implement. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  19:44, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Additional remark - after checking some more, I also agree that "of", for now, could be better option than "in"; "of" is all encompassing, sort of speak, and there would be no need for further adjustments in subs, right(?). ౪ Santa ౪  99°  07:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello @Fayenatic london, let's solve this problem once and for all going as you initially intended - by using "in". I checked a little bit and "Arch of Thai" has no sub-cat that contains Thai styles because "Thai arch styles" do not exist (I don't know if we have any article about particular Thai style nor if such styles exist); "Arch of Japan" has (""), but it's buried in ""‎. What we need to do is to create "Traditional arch styles of Japan", which would contain page "Japanese-Western Eclectic Architecture", and sub "Japanese architectural styles"‎, and I didn't look up for it but if we have Japanese garden pages and sub-cat that should also go in "Traditional". This new "Traditional arch styles of Japan" should, then, be included into "Arch styles" and into "Arch in Japan". ౪ Santa ౪  99°  15:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I meant let's give it a try. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  15:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, "" is not included into "Arch styles" at all at this point. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  15:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * We have some Thai pages on specific way of building, sort of styles, which means we could create "Arch styles of Thai" ౪ Santa ౪  99°  15:56, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * One difficulty I have with that is that there is some separation between "architectural styles" and "architecture by (period or) style"; indeed, I was trying to extend and complete that separation at Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 2, and the word-choice issue there prompted me to open the present CFD. That is, to distinguish between (i) articles about styles, and (ii) sub-cats containing buildings by style. Under that distinction, "Traditional architectural styles of Japan" would not contain articles on buildings, so what we would need would be . Of course, it would bolster that category (defining its separation from e.g., and ) to have a sub-cat for articles on trad styles. Do you think it would be legitimate to set up "Traditional architecture of Japan" and ? These could them also contain the few articles on buildings overseas. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:41, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * An immediate weakness is that these might find themselves speedily renamed to "Traditional architecture in Japan" like all their siblings, followed by removal of the overseas examples. Ah – there is already a Category:Partitions in traditional Japanese architecture (with lead article List of partitions of traditional Japanese architecture), so perhaps Category:Traditional Japanese architecture and Category:Traditional Thai architecture would work better. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I did not catch in time this latest post - I will too check on this more. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  18:42, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Fayenatic london here's check this website, they have great team of experts, and page on Traditional arch in Japan neatly summarize things. ౪ Santa ౪  99°  18:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, we could/should create Traditional arch of Japan (probably Thai too). I will check a little bit more vis-a-vis how many articles we have on style and how many on specific buildings that we could include (this should apply also to Thai, Korea, and we have one such on Chine(!)), and I will get back to your post later or tomorrow night). ౪ Santa ౪  99°  18:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I created List of partitions of traditional Japanese architecture and the associated category. I was aware, naming it, of buildings outside of Japan that used these elements, and many buildings in Japan that didn't, and was trying to write a suitable title. My cat creation edit comment also says that I wasn't sure what supercats to put it in! So I'll have a try at a coherent, workable ontology. It may not be very good; I expect criticism.
 * It seems we have two independent types of divisions. Geographic location is simple; we can usually all agree on whether a building is in, say, Basel or not. And what continent Basel is on (catting a building by well-defined time period, like Category:17th-century BC architecture, or time and place, like Category:Architecture of the Azuchi-Momoyama period, are similarly noncontroversial). The other division is cultural and stylistic.
 * There's an analogy in food; Japanese food in California, and Californian food in Japan, are quite dissimilar from Japanese food in Japan and Californian food in California. You can find "Chinese food" almost anywhere, but it isn't the same everywhere. It's food conceived using food cultural and techniques originally from China, but adapted to local ingredients and other local cuisines. There is a strong difference between endonyms and exonyms; food in China is more likely to be labelled "Shanghai" or something more specific.
 * Architecture is similar. We have Queen Anne style architecture, the rather different British Queen Anne Revival architecture, and the dramatically different New World Queen Anne Revival architecture, including Queen Anne style architecture in the United States and the Federation Queen Anne style in Australia. Category:Queen Anne architecture in Canada contains a mix of British-revival-like Queen Anne buildings, like the Bank of Montreal National Historic Site, and US-style Queen Anne buildings, like 223 Robert Street. These are all countries where many people speak English.
 * There is also a strong difference between architectural endonyms and exonyms. Japan has native terms like Sukiya-zukuri style, but outside Japan, it's usually all lumped together as "Japanese architecture". This is an expression of systemic bias; the fact that it's common for English sources to be vaguer about stuff in non-English-speaking countries does not justify the use of vaguer terms. Sometimes exonyms are more precise; all the above Queen Anne styles were called just plain "Queen Anne" locally.
 * My opinion: we should certainly categorize buildings by current location. This will eliminate most of the "But it wasn't part of Poland at the time" and "What polity was this Neolithic structure built by?" debates. If we do this by continent and country, we avoid most of the problems with overlapping geographic designations. Ultimately, this should be done by geographic coordinate system co-ordinates. Likewise, time period is done by date(s) of construction.
 * We should also, independently, categorize by style. Where possible, we should use precise endonyms, using exonyms where they are more precise and supported by the balance of RS. A lot of these will be fusion terms, like Indo-Saracenic architecture, which should be a subcat of all the parent styles.
 * Style endonyms in turn can be categorized by place of origin, so Sukiya-zukuri could be a subcat of Category:Architectural styles originating in Japan (on reflection I think this better than the vaguer "traditional"). If there are multiple places of origin, we can add several, or a more general geographic term. Where geographic terms overlap, well, something may originate in the Caucasus Mountains and in multiple countries in that area. We should also add terms that imply both place and time of origin, like Category:Architectural styles originating in the Azuchi-Momoyama period or Category:Architectural styles originating in the Ottoman Empire. Archaic geographical terms, from the time of origin, should take precedence here, and in case of doubt, several should be added. Add all that apply and aren't redundant. We might also want Category:Architectural styles common in Japan, with temporal subcats, for styles currently or formerly widespread there.
 * We should categorize articles on architectural elements, techniques, materials, etc. by the style(s) of which they are typical, and the time periods and geographic region(s) in which they originate. For some modern things, the practical location of origin might be "global".
 * Any opinions on categorizing things by religion, like Category:Islamic architecture or Category:Hindu architecture or Category:Christian architecture? The last contains only religious buildings and elements, the second mostly religious, but some secular, and the first has many secular entries. I found this discussion while looking into those on account of a renaming dispute. HLHJ (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm just going to copy my comment from Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_2 -
 * Ok, so, I have no opinion on the nom, but I think the problem this discussion seems to be having, is noted right in the article, Architecture:
 * "It is both the process and the product of sketching, conceiving, planning, designing, and constructing buildings or other structures."
 * So for the question of "of" vs "in", for me it's a simple question:
 * Is the intention to consider the category contents as art (the abstract - the "process") or a contructed object located somewhere (the concrete - the "product")?
 * If it's art, then we should use "of". If it's an object, then it should be "in"
 * And by the way - this issue exists in most of art, especially the fine arts. So we probably should keep that in mind, as this could/should probably lead to some broader discussions. - jc37 01:51, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Johnbod has stopped replying in the other discussion, but given his wider interest in arts topics, he may wish to respond to Jc37 above. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:University of the People alumni
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 10%23Category:University of the People alumni

Category:Editor's pronouns templates
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 10%23Category:Editor's pronouns templates

Category:People from Udmurtia
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:People from Zavyalovsky District, Udmurt Republic to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Yakshur-Bodyinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Votkinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Vavozhsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Syumsinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Mozhginsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Malopurginsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Kiznersky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Igrinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Propose merging Category:People from Kambarsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
 * Nominator's rationale: Only 1 or 2 articles in each Rathfelder (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: This contains 8 articles on ru.wiki, so I think there is room to grow. OTOH, almost all of those articles are in the subcat Category:People from Kambarsky (i.e. the town), so perhaps we can just have that when the time comes and let the district go... Furius (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I think it makes much more sense to categorise people by towns and cities. That is almost always where they do whatever makes them notable. Rathfelder (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok then: Keep: Category:People from Yakshur-Bodyinsky District (5 articles on uk.wiki), Category:People from Votkinsky District (11 on ru.wiki), Category:People from Vavozhsky District (8 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Mozhginsky District (18 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Malopurginsky District (6 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Kiznersky District (9 on ru.wiki), Category:People from Igrinsky District (16 on ru.wiki). Delete Category:People from Kambarsky District and the rest. Furius (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Support all. See more elaborate discussion elsewhere. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:40, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Medieval Iraqi people
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: manual merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi people to Category:People of the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi astronomers to Category:Astronomers of the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi geographers to Category:Geographers of the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi Jews to Category:Jews in the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Jewish physicians of Iraq to Category:Medieval Jewish physicians and Category:Jews in the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi mathematicians to Category:Mathematicians of the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi physicians to Category:Physicians of the medieval Islamic world
 * Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi writers to Category:Writers of the medieval Islamic world
 * Nominator's rationale: selectively merge and delete, Iraq did not exist in the middle ages. Most articles are in an Abbasid Caliphate category where they properly belong, so these articles do not have to be included in the merger. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Merge/delete per nom. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete/merge ArvindPalaskar (talk) 16:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Support deletion provided someone checks that all articles have a more specific (e.g. Abbasid) category. We do not like anachronistic categories.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

People from sultanates
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:29, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Sultanate of Rum‎ to Category:Scholars from the Sultanate of Rum‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Historians of the Sultanate of Rum to Category:Historians from the Sultanate of Rum
 * Propose renaming Category:People of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:People from the Ayyubid Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Scholars from the Ayyubid Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Astronomers of the Ayyubid Sultanate‎ to Category:Astronomers from the Ayyubid Sultanate‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Physicians of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Physicians from the Ayyubid Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:13th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:13th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:14th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:14th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:14th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:14th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:15th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:15th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:15th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:15th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:16th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:16th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:16th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:16th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate by ethnic origin to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate by ethnic origin
 * Propose renaming Category:Arabs of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Arabs from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate by occupation to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate by occupation
 * Propose renaming Category:Religious leaders in the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Religious leaders from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Christian religious leaders in the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Christian religious leaders from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Scholars from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Mamluk-era historians to Category:Historians from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:Theologians of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category: Theologians from the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Propose renaming Category:People of the Adal Sultanate‎ to Category:People from the Adal Sultanate‎
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per precedent in this earlier discussion about empires. Presumably sultanates should be treated the same way as empires. Some subcategories already use "from", they have not been included in this nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Support but why is Category:Scholars of the Mamluk Sultanate to be renamed to "historians"? Surely an error.  That historians category needs to be checked that it is about chroniclers etc, not modern historians who study the period.  I might have preferred "in" to "from", which only goes well with expatriate categories.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.