Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 27



Category:Campaigns and movements in Wales

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  21:14, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Campaigns and movements in Wales to Category:Political campaigns in the United Kingdom and Category:Political movements in Wales
 * Nominator's rationale: Newly created category that doesn't fit into any existing category trees. Though it is unclear to me at what point a campaign becomes a movement (or visa versa) I would argue it's better to categorise these articles in the existing category frameworks at the moment. Sionk (talk) 10:01, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose Category:Campaigns and movements in Wales better includes categories such as Campaign for a Wales cricket team, Campaign to change the WRU logo which are not really political movements or campaigns. Political movements such as Welsh independence could be included in both "Category:Campaigns and movements in Wales" and Category:Political movements in Wales. I am however, open to alternative suggestions or discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Titus Gold (talk • contribs) 11:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  07:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * If split, we would rather need to split by political versus non-political. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There is the top category Category:Campaigning ...though aren't most campaigns political in some way? Sionk (talk) 09:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Category:Campaigning is a subcategory of Category:Activism, while subCategory:Political campaigning is part of the tree of Category:Politics. That seems all very appropriate. I agree with Titus Gold that Campaign for a Wales cricket team and Campaign to change the WRU logo do not directly belong in a politics category. Alternatively, the category might be renamed into Category:Nationalist campaigns in Wales, as such that may become part of the politics tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:03, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * All sensible proposals. Titus Gold (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * the discussion will probably be closed as no consensus if you do not clearly agree on a best solution. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * That will leave a mess. The category was created because TitusGold had created a number of "Campaign for... " articles, which are currently in the process of being deleted, merged or re-named. Sionk (talk) 17:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps splitting to "Category:Political movements in Wales and "Category:Cultural movements in Wales" could be an option? Titus Gold (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure that Pan-Celticism, Logo of the Welsh Rugby Union
 * Wales national cricket team all fall under "Political movements". Open to other suggestions. Titus Gold (talk) 17:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The former is already categoried under "Political movements" without any concerns. As for the latter two, we don't categorise sections of articles. "Cultural movements in Wales" would be a big no-no because it falls into the same trap as the current category under discussion, not fitting into any exisiting category trees (and being so vague as to be difficult to define). Sionk (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support proposed split. Sorry I have not said anything earlier but I have been on the fence on this one. Taxonomies are hard, and I am no expert in these discussions, but it seems to me that the rationale for putting all political campaigns in proposed existing categories makes sense. We don't categorise article sections and it is not clear what benefit the reader gets from having a category that would have a campaign for the WRU to change their logo in the midst of all the political campaigns anyway (although as soon as it becomes a nationalist campaign, it clearly is political and thus can go in the political categories anyway). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Moorish people

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Moorish people
 * Propose deleting Category:Moorish people by century
 * Propose merging Category:7th-century Moorish people to Category:7th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:8th-century Moorish people to Category:8th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:9th-century Moorish people to Category:9th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:10th-century Moorish people to Category:10th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:11th-century Moorish people to Category:11th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:12th-century Moorish people to Category:12th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:13th-century Moorish people to Category:13th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:14th-century Moorish people to Category:14th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:15th-century Moorish people to Category:15th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:16th-century Moorish people to Category:16th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:17th-century Moorish people to Category:17th-century Muslims
 * Propose merging Category:18th-century Moorish people to Category:18th-century Muslims
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, Moors is an outdated and ambiguous term. Most of the articles are already in more specific subcategories, e.g. for Al-Andalus, Morocco and Ifriqiya. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose deletion until all articles are distributed to appropriate "national" subcategories. Moors refers to people from the Muslim West, as opposed to those of the Middle East, or Persia or India.  Until these are all containerised, this nom destroys detail.   Peterkingiron (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The nom already says the large majority of articles has been distributed to appropriate "national" subcategories so this reason to oppose does not quite make sense. By the way, Muslim West or anything like that never existed. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  07:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. 'Moors' is outdated, vague, and a catch-all exonym used by Europeans to describe North African Muslims, without any further distinction. An Andalusi Arab 'Moor' is a completely different thing to a berber 'Moor' from what is now Algeria. It would be like grouping all Catholic or Protestant Europeans as 'Franks'. Constantine  ✍  11:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that 'Moors' in older works can also be pre-Islamic Berbers (e.g. the 'Moorish Wars' of Justinian's time). Not a useful term for an encyclopedia. Constantine  ✍  11:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Municipality categories in Ukraine

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  07:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose downmerging Category:Berezhany urban hromada to Category:Berezhany
 * Propose downmerging Category:Ternopil urban hromada to Category:Ternopil
 * Propose downmerging Category:Zbarazh urban hromada to Category:Zbarazh
 * Propose downmerging Category:Zolotyi Potik settlement hromada to Category:Zolotyi Potik
 * Nominator's rationale: downmerge, we normally do not have a municipality category when there is already a town category. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Query - how is this different from (say) Category:Metropolitan Borough of Barnsley and its subcat Category:Barnsley? Oculi (talk) 10:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, on the contrary, it is normal practice now. Category:Borough of Harrogate and Category:Harrogate, Category:Borough of Stafford and Category:Stafford etc. --Privybst (talk) 11:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * These seem to be districts, not municipalities. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * They are similar. There are no 'municipalities' in England. Privybst (talk) 12:32, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly, there aren't any, so the analogy does not make sense. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:38, 29 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pretenders to the Lithuanian throne

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: redirect to Category:Dukes of Urach. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:59, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting pretenders to the lithuanian throne
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no such thing as "pretender" to the Lithuanian throne. A pretender is someone who claims to be the rightful ruler of a country although not recognized as such by the current government. None of these people ever claimed to be rulers of Lithuania. The whole episode stems from the attempt to establish Kingdom of Lithuania (1918). A king was selected, but never crowned or assumed the position. After a few months everyone very amicably split up with no further claims being made by Wilhelm Karl, Duke of Urach or his successors. Only media once in a while rediscovers the story and stokes fantasies. Renata•3 19:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  07:45, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Putting aside dukes of Urach, shouldn't figures such as Alexis of Russia be included in the category? He claimed to be a Grand Duke of Lithuania Marcelus (talk) 12:13, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Marcelus: That actually would be far more historically accurate. Unfortunately, I don't know much about other such claims from the period of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Renata•3 01:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking at other categories about pretenders, it seems they contain mostly representatives of deposed dynasties, like Carlist leaders in Spain; or persons who had some support within a country but failed to achieve the actual rule. And Alexis was just claimant, but Maximilian III, Archduke of Austria would be perfect for example. Nonetheless I think that category should stand, but without Urachs, he as you said never were pretends, with exception of Wilhelm Marcelus (talk) 12:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment, if this is the case the five articles should be edited to downplay the pretendership. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Attempted to downplay in the articles, but got reverted. Discussing the issue on my talk page with the user. Renata•3 01:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Convert to cat-redirect -- Essentially this is identical to Category:Dukes of Urach. This does not refer to claimants to the ancient Jagellian crown, but to a throne that might have been created in 1918 following the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.  The Duke of Urach was elected king by the Lithuanian council, but he never took office due to opposition of the German Kaiser.  The appropriate course is to add a short note as to this to the headnote of "Dukes of Urach" to the effect that Dukes since 1918 are claimants (pretenders) to a potential Lithuanian throne.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Redirect per Peterkington. — Qwerfjkl  talk  17:48, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recorded music characters

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename and purge subcats. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Recorded music characters to Category:Fictional characters invented for recorded music
 * Nominator's rationale: First, the current name is unclear and invented for and used only for Wikipedia. I don't think anyone can figure out what this category is for without checking the definition ("Fictional characters invented for recorded music."). Since conceptually we have category for fictional characters by medium they debuted in (comic book characters, etc.), I guess the existence of this category is ok, but we need to use a proper descriptive name here instead of this Wikipedia-unique term. Which would be Category:Fictional characters invented for recorded music. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that the current name is unclear but I don't think the proposed alternative is better. Not only is it a bit clunky, it also poses problems with the subcategories Category:Songs about fictional characters‎ and Category:Musicians with fictional stage personas. Perhaps Category:Fictional characters and music? Pichpich (talk) 18:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom and purge subcategories Category:Songs about fictional characters‎ and Category:Musicians with fictional stage personas. Also purge articles that are about songs and albums instead of about fictional characters. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Non-sovereign countries with multiple official languages
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 5%23Category:Non-sovereign countries with multiple official languages

Category:LGBT poets
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 5%23Category:LGBT poets