Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 1

 &lt; July 31 August 2 &gt;

Category:Celtic diaspora

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting celtic diaspora
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Category:Celtic American and its precedents. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, should follow the fate of Category:Celtic American. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Korean clans by clan village

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename * Pppery * it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Korean clans by clan village to Category:Korean clans by settlement
 * Nominator's rationale: Precision ("clan village" is repetitive) and concision (many Korean clans are not from villages, but from cities. "Settlement" includes both) toobigtokale (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Honorary citizens

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete Feel free to request salting (or possibly a title blacklist entry) at the appropriate venues for that - there isn't a clear enough consensus to do so here. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens by country
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of french cities
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of paris
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of croatia
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of croatian cities
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of dubrovnik
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of osijek
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of zadar county
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of italy
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of genoa
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of nepal
 * Propose deleting honorary citizens of singapore
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:G4: recently (March 2022; augmented on 5 April 2023, and 29 June 2023) recreated category tree which has been consistently deleted again and again per WP:OCAWARD & WP:NONDEFINING since 2007. But somehow people keep recreating them. WP:SALT?
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_8
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 10, Honorary citizens of Canada, Honorary citizens of Ireland
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_14
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_June_16
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 24
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2010 December 22 - contains a good overview of all previous deletions
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2014 February 22
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2019 May 3
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 23
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2021 July 3
 * Need I say more? I think not, except again: WP:SALT? Saves future Wikipedians time. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:48, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The reason why I'm not yet nominating the subtree Category:Lists of honorary citizens is that they have a lot of main articles. I believe we need a spree of AfDs for them first. Given that there are lots of precedents for deleting those as well, I think it's just a matter of time. To name a few:
 * Articles for deletion/List of honorary citizens of Lubbock
 * Articles for deletion/List of honorary citizens of Templin
 * I might go and nominate them myself if nobody else does. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Here we go, let's start with these:
 * Articles for deletion/List of honorary citizens of Zwolle
 * Articles for deletion/List of honorary citizens of Schleswig-Holstein
 * Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Civil wars of the Industrial era

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split. (non-admin closure) C LYDE  TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 06:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Civil wars of the Industrial era to Category:Civil wars of the Early Modern period and Category:Civil wars of the 19th century
 * Nominator's rationale: split to a periodization that is much more common in categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Split per nom. "Industrial era" is not a common term of periodisation in historiography. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiIndaba

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge * Pppery * it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:WikiIndaba to Category:Wiki-related conferences and Category:WikiProject Africa
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, only one page in the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not against it. Bobbyshabangu talk 00:32, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Single-article category whose article fits better in the categories listed above. --AlexandraAVX (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Colony of Santo Domingo
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 9%23Colony of Santo Domingo

Category:People from Cordoipo
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:People from Cordoipo to Category:People from Codroipo
 * Nominator's rationale: Spelling mistake (typo) in the name of the category Robby (talk) 11:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per WP:C2A, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Football at the 2019 Pan American Games – Women's tournament
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting football at the 2019 pan american games – women's tournament
 * Nominator's rationale: Only a single article in the category. Upmerge. Gonnym (talk) 09:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - this is WP:C2F (speedy). Oculi (talk) 09:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support  per WP:C2F, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Football at the 2019 Pan American Games – Men's tournament
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting football at the 2019 pan american games – men's tournament
 * Nominator's rationale: Only a single article in the category. Upmerge. Gonnym (talk) 09:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - this is WP:C2F (speedy). Oculi (talk) 09:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support  per WP:C2F, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Clergy with disabilities
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) C LYDE  TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 07:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting clergy with disabilities
 * Nominator's rationale: Per Overcategorization: non-notable intersection of characteristics. StAnselm (talk) 15:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 01:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Comment Oppose. Similar to disabled lawyers, my initial motivation for making the category was as a container for the subcategory of blind clergy, and to nest within Category:Religious workers with disabilities. It probably makes more sense to upmerge Blind clergy into Blind Religious workers. Mason (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I dug a little deeper and found an academic journal on the intersection (Journal of Disability and Religion). There also seem to be several organizations dedicated to disabled clergy, and a book about it Mason (talk) 19:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per above. Although Category:Religious workers with disabilities may suffer from the same problem it has not been nominated yet, so it remains the proper merge target while it exists. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose for similar reasons that I oppose deleting Category:Lawyers with disabilities and other siblings in Category:People with disabilities by occupation. Religions and disabilities are often a difficult combination, with some saying disabilities are a curse, others a blessing, still others that God or whatever deity accepts everyone or created humans in their own image, leading to still other questions about that deity, and spurring on centuries of theological debate that these disabled clerics themselves, as representatives of religions, have also participated in, of course. I believe this falls under the exemptions mentioned in WP:OCEGRS. I also see no reason for orphaning Category:Blind clergy. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I can just speak for Christianity that this is a very unusual discussion topic. Happy to hear if it is a real issue in other religions. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What about Category:Clerical celibacy ? Is that a disability? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not really. Celibacy is not about what one is not able to do, but about what one is not allowed to do. It certainly could lead to a lot of... dysfunction, even trauma, which is often not to be entirely blamed on the individual, but also their community and ecclesiastical organisation and ideology. But by itself, no, it is not a "disability". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Well, I would have to dig into the literature if you would like reliable sources, but from countless current and formerly religious people, including Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus I have spoken, I know their disabilities were often a religious issue. And I noticed that in religious contexts, there is a lot of overlap between having a disability and being LGBT+. Technically not a "disability", but the same kind of arguments are often made by both opponents ("curse/punishment from God") and supporters ("God loves everyone").
 * In the church of my childhood and early teens, there was a long-running issue when parents with a deaf daughter wanted to attend the service and asked for a sign language interpreter just for their daughter. Several people were opposed to it, some even saying God chose to "curse" their daughter as some sort of "punishment", which caused a lot of hurt. Fortunately, eventually an interpreter was indeed introduced. (Even worse were discussions when a lesbian couple wanted to marry in that church; you can probably guess how well that went down.) One woman I know quite well was born with several disabilities, including difficulty walking, which means she has been spending most of her life in a wheelchair. Her Muslim father abandoned her soon after she was born because he believed God had "cursed" her.
 * I could tell you many more examples, but I must be careful with people's privacy, and anecdotes aren't strong evidence anyway. Safe to say that debates about disabilities, and how this should be theologically understood, occur in all religious denominations, although certainly not to the same intensity, of course. Fundamentalists tend to regard it more as an issue that religion has something to say about (usually negatively, the "curse/punishment from God" narrative) than more secularly, individually or liberally-minded religious people (usually a "that's your private life" narrative or "that's between you and your Creator" narrative), but likewise, religious people who are strongly motived by social justice often believe religion has something to say about it (usually positively, the "God loves everyone" narrative). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:12, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That is sad to hear. Admittedly I should have said "in Christian theology" as I cannot speak for the entire diversity of Christian communities. Btw there is a gospel section in which Jesus overturns the idea that disability is a form of God's punishment. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Indeed, it is quite sad.... If you're really interested in discussing this further (real-life stories plus direct interpretation of Scripture, both of which I find very interesting), I suppose we should start emailing each other privately, because it is too WP:OFFTOPIC for this CfD, and I want to protect people's privacy. Otherwise, I think we need to delve into WP:SECONDARY sources about the subject to make a balanced assessment of whether nom is correct that "clergy with disabilities" is a non-notable intersection of characteristics. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian Football League coaches
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. Unopposed after a week. Undeletion can be requested at WP:REFUND, here's a list of the pages the category was removed from. (non-admin closure) C LYDE  TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 07:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Australian Football League coaches to Category:VFL/AFL coaches
 * Nominator's rationale: The Victorian Football League (VFL) was renamed the Australian Football League (AFL) in 1990. The categories are describing essentially the same list of people. When referring to historical lists of players, coaches, etc, we typically use "VFL/AFL"—eg Category:VFL/AFL players. Many of those in the categories never coached in the Australian Football League when it was named as such. Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 00:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.