Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 14

 &lt; August 13 August 15 &gt;

Category:Members of the Yorkshire Naturalists' Union
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:Members of the Yorkshire Naturalists' Union

Category:Medieval Ukrainian people
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:Medieval Ukrainian people

20th century in Yugoslavia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:00, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: manual merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th century in Yugoslavia to Category:History of Yugoslavia
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th-century disestablishments in Yugoslavia to Category:Disestablishments in Yugoslavia
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th-century establishments in Yugoslavia to Category:Establishments in Yugoslavia
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th century in Yugoslav television to Category:Television in Yugoslavia
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th-century Yugoslav television series debuts to Category:Yugoslav television series debuts
 * Propose manually merging Category:20th-century Yugoslav television series endings to Category:Yugoslav television series endings
 * Propose manually merging Category:Years of the 20th century in Yugoslavia to Category:Years in Yugoslavia
 * Nominator's rationale: manually merge and re-parent targets, as duplicates, since Yugoslavia was wholly in the 20th century. The merge should be done manually because quite some content is already deeper in the tree of every target. But, the 20th-century parent categories should be added to the targets, so that the Yugoslav categories still remain part of the tree of the 20th century. This is the same as for Czechoslovakia in this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Yugoslavia's case is more complicated than Czechoslovakia's because Serbia and Montenegro was called "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" up to 2003. Category:21st century in Yugoslavia therefore exists. –Vipz (talk) 00:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing to that category. I suppose it ought to be renamed to Category:21st century in Serbia and Montenegro. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle: It follows that Category:20th century in Serbia and Montenegro ought to exist too then for any "Yugoslavia" categories after 1992 (when it broke up). We'll then have a whole lot more of recategorization work to do. –Vipz (talk) 14:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That is right. But I guess much of the recategorization can be done semi-automated. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:34, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Can we just accept that the main article is called Serbia and Montenegro, let go of the name "Yugoslavia" after 1992, delete the "21st century in Yugoslavia" category and just rename all 1992 to 2006 categories to "Years in Serbia and Montenegro", leaving it entirely century-less? A short-lived turn-of-century state with 2 different names really does not benefit from century-based categories navigation. At most we could use "2000s in Serbia and Montenegro" (rename from Category:2000s in Yugoslavia). I wouldn't go for creating/renaming "1990s in Serbia and Montenegro", that's too much of a fuss for too little gain. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * NL's proposal is fine to me, but it will require a separate nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Recommend a future follow-up in order to rename Category:2000s in Yugoslavia to Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro, deleting Category:21st century in Yugoslavia etc. In general, I recommend using more Template:Category see also templates, because this allows us to link to similar categories with difficult 'parentage', shall we say. So Category:1990s in Yugoslavia and Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro should have See also Category:[Decade] in [Country name]" at the top linking to each other. Hopefully, this significantly reduces endless semantic disputes about country names and turn-of-century categorisation issues, and avoids needless duplication or redundant layers, while still enabling readers and editors to find what they are looking for. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:53, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Vipz @Marcocapelle Is this something you can agree with? I think this is what we are looking for; a pragmatic solution to a complicated problem that can't really be solved if we are trying to be precise, exact, strict, and by the book. This allows everyone to find what they're looking for, and that is our goal in the end. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: One more pragmatic reason to call the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia "Serbia and Montenegro" in practice from 2000 onwards, is the fact that Slobodan Milošević, whose tenure as president of Seria and then the FR of Yugoslavia virtually coincides with the 1990s in Yugoslavia, and with which that decade is strongly associated, was forced to resign on 7 October 2000 after losing the elections and a popular uprising against him. Afterwards, his successor Vojislav Koštunica initiated the constitutional reforms which would eventually lead to the country being renamed "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. The post-Milošević era was de facto the post-Yugoslavia era. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree, for sure! Marcocapelle (talk) 18:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Canadian trade unionists of Italian descent
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:Canadian trade unionists of Italian descent

Category:Medieval rulers of Thessaly

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Monarchs of Thessaly, purge and reparent. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Medieval rulers of Thessaly to Category:People of medieval Greece
 * Alt proposal: renaming Category:Medieval rulers of Thessaly to Category:Monarchs of Thessaly, purging the non-Komnenodoukai, and re-parenting it to Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:REDUNDANTFORK. What "Thessaly" or "Medieval Thessaly" means here is unclear and ambiguous, ranging from "Epirus" to "Thessaly" to Empire of Thessalonica. What is meant by "ruler" here is also unclear. Many people are already in Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, so perhaps a lot of this is just a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. It also contains two Ottoman governors, a self-proclaimed Serbo-Greek emperor, a "ruler" who became a monk, and a Serbian "magnate"/"general". It's a lot of people vaguely "Thessalian", "medieval" and "ruler" lumped together. Upmerging seems best for now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt Category:Monarchs of Thessaly for sebastokrators of Thessaly and cesars of Thessaly, purge the remainder. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That would still duplicate Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, wouldn't it? Oh, I also see we've already got Category:Sebastokrators. The title sebastokrator does not necessarily signify a sovereign position, nor is it necessarily connected to a territory. The fact that "Epirus", "Thessaly" and "Empire of Thessalonica" (Thessaloniki lying in Central Macedonia, not Thessaly, despite similarities in names; the city was named after the region but is not located in it) are lumped together proves this; the connection between them is not that all these rulers were sebastokrators, but that most were members of the same Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, save for the exceptions mentioned. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It may become a subcategory of Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be better to make it a parent of Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty if we did Alt rename it as you propose? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Apologies for not reacting earlier. "Dynasty" categories are an additional layer of complication, as most dynasty categories are actually in use as family categories. I think it is more useful - in order to avoid overlap - to rename Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty to Category:Komnenodoukai, then to make it a parent category of Category:Monarchs of Thessaly. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:15, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm so a bit like how we renamed Category:Rurik dynasty to Category:Rurikids? But we didn't make the latter a parent of Category:Grand Princes of Kiev... Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:17, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * fair point, we may well parent Category:Grand Princes of Kiev to Category:Rurikids as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I would prefer not to, for the simple reason that we don't know whether Rurik existed, and because nobody is known to be called and calling himself "grand prince of Kiev" until Yaroslav the Wise. The earliest were just 'princes'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:53, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, but the test is the other way around: were (nearly) all grand princes also Rurikids? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If we accept the genealogies as valid: probably yes. Although the first 4 weren't yet "grand", after Oleg the Wise (whose relationship with "Rurik" and Igor is unclear), all successors of Igor of Kiev who were princes of Kiev until 1240 were allegedly descended from Igor. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Update: added alt proposal as suggested by @Marcocapelle. I find this an acceptable second choice. Whether new parent Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty should be renamed to Category:Komnenodoukai is for a potential follow-up CfR; we don't need to agree on that yet right now in order to agree in this discussion. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:3rd-millennium executions

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 3rd-millennium executions
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. 1 C, 0 P. I think it goes without saying that there won't be "potential for growth" for another 77 years. That executions will take place in the 22nd century is entirely plausible (though hopefully won't be necessary), but assuming such in advance is still WP:CRYSTAL. Most of us probably won't be around anymore if it happens; until that time, this is a redundant layer. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Most topics do not warrant categorization by millennium, and cannot possibly contain future events. But in this case, we have five millennium categories for executions, from the 2nd millennium BC to present, and all except the 2nd millennium BC are further subdivided by century. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 01:05, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is a case where you may question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole. Millennia are primarily relevant in prehistory. By century may well suffice here. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole in this case, and potentially other cases. Both of you agree already to Delete Category:4th-millennium BC deaths; I think the two cases are very similar. The latter will probably never be useful, while "3rd-millennium executions" won't be useful until we reach the year 2100 and we've got at least 3/5/10/whatever minimal number of items Wikipedia (if it still exists then, which I strongly hope) will require then to create a new category. Creating this category now is just very premature, and will not ease navigation for another 77 years. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Millennia categories are useful for navigation. Dimadick (talk) 06:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:23, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment This category will not ease navigation for another 77 years. (Already said in subthread, but worth highlighting). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:44, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact, you said it in the nomination. — Qwerfjkl  talk  20:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:13th-century Russian women
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:13th-century Russian women

Category:Songs written by RM (rapper)
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Songs written by RM (rapper) to Category:Songs written by RM (musician)
 * Nominator's rationale: The category needs to be renamed as his article title is now RM (musician) rather than RM (rapper). <b style="color:black; font-family:Garamond">Btspurplegalaxy</b> <b style="color:blue">💬</b> <b style="color:#9D9E9E">🖊️</b> 20:20, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per WP:C2D, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per above. QuietHere (talk &#124; contributions) 14:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Eastern Orthodoxy in Thessaloniki
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting eastern orthodoxy in thessaloniki
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A merge is not necessary, the subcat is adequately parented. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lombardic queens consort
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Lombardic queens consort to Category:Queens consort of the Lombards
 * Nominator's rationale: To align with main article List of queens consort of the Lombards, which I have just WP:BOLDly renamed from List of queens of the Lombards according to what the opening sentence already said: The queens consort of the Lombards were the wives of the Lombardic kings (...). I did that to better distinguish them from the queens consort of the 19th-century Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia. 3 women from the latter were miscategorised as "queens consort of the Lombards"; I transferred them to Category:People of the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia instead. Because the main article has thus been recently renamed without discussion, WP:C2D does not apply and I'm submitting it for full CFD, but I reckon people will agree. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:11, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename in order to reduce ambiguity. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I've removed this and other categories as children of Category:Italian queens consort, which has been incorrectly used as a "nationality" tree, because its scope had (for good reason) been limited to the 1861-1946 Kingdom of Italy. I'm currently splitting off Category:Queens consort of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) as well for that reason. The only connection between them, really, seems to be the title "of Italy" and the use of the Iron Crown as a symbol of their husband's power, but otherwise these are separate groups which require their own categories. Perhaps even the Napoleonic ones as well. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The House of the Dead character redirects to lists
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:The House of the Dead character redirects to lists

Category:Office-holders by country
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Office-holders by country of work and remove Judges by nationality subcat. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Office-holders by country to Category:Office-holders by country of work and Category:Office-holders by nationality
 * Alt proposal: renaming Category:Office-holders by country to Category:Office-holders by country of work; un-parent Category:Judges by nationality‎. (Future follow-up: Rename/Rescope Category:Royalty by nationality‎ to "country of work")
 * Nominator's rationale: Mixup between two trees: Category:People by occupation and country (people by the country where they work, regardless of their nationality) and Category:People by occupation and nationality (people by their nationality, regardless of the country where they work). Neither of these is currently a parent of this category, but the 5 children show the two trees mixing up:


 * Category:Lists of office-holders by country‎ (= by country of work)
 * Category:Judges by nationality‎ (= by nationality)
 * Category:Ombudsmen by country (= by country of work)
 * Category:Political office-holders by country‎ (= by country of work)
 * Category:Royalty by nationality‎ (= by nationality)


 * Follow-up to Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 2, leading to Category:Sports coaches by country to be Renamed to Category:Sports coaches by country of work for better distinction from Category:Sports coaches by nationality. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * In order to avoid a large amount of duplication I would suggest that we diffuse this only by country, not by nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Okay, I could agree to that. Should we then Purge the judges?
 * I myself strongly prefer Renaming/Rescoping the royalty to Royalty of Foo per your (and my) Monarchs of Foo principle ("Suggestion B"). Just like we agreed on Monarchs of Cyprus rather than Cypriot monarchs, and Regents of the Netherlands rather than Dutch regents, I would much prefer Royalty of the Netherlands instead of Dutch royalty. Their "office" is connected to a specific country; their nationality isn't really that important. E.g. Máxima being Argentinian is of secondary importance to her being the queen (consort) of the Netherlands, and we probably should not be categorising Willem-Alexander as "German royalty" just because he also has German nationality. Makes sense? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is very much the same thought as I had in mind for officials. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, Alt proposal added. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support alt. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:39, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Missing person cases by country
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22%23Category:Missing person cases by country

Category:Antiquity (journal) people
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting antiquity (journal) people
 * Nominator's rationale: This category purports to contain "staff, members of its Editorial Advisory Board, Trustees or frequent contributors". None of these, however, are defining characteristics. Editorial board members, for example, are only listed in an article on a journal in the extremely rare cases that there are reliable sources independent of the subject discussing their importance for that journal. Similarly, authors (no matter how notable they may be) are only included in a journal article in the even rarer case that there are independent sources attesting to the importance of an author for a journal. Conversely, I cannot even remember a single case where publishing in a certain journal was mentioned other than in passing in articles on academics. The only exception that I see are persons that have been editor-in-chief of a journal (which makes those individuals meet WP:ACADEMIC). In short, it is difficult to see how this category is defining for any of the academics currently included. Hence: delete. Randykitty (talk) 10:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Surely purge members of the editorial advisory board and members of the Antiquity Trust (which merely supports the publication of the journal), per WP:NONDEF. Delete if too few articles are left in the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:28, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Per WP:OCASSOC and WP:PERFCAT. I clicked on several articles and all of them used primary sources from the organizations's web site, which underscores how this is not defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:55, 18 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.